Lessons from the Streets: A Psychiatrist's Unconventional Journey

Secrets of Superb Interviewing-- How to Be Everyone's Number 1 Choice! Today we feature our beloved Kyle Jones, Ph.D, a clinical psychologist who suggested we might do a really cool podcast on the interviewing skills featured in Chapter 16 of my Feeling Good Handbook. Rhonda and I are absolutely delighted to welcome Kyle for his third appearance on to the Feeling Good Podcast. (Rhonda had to excuse herself after introducing this episode because she was not feeling well) In that chapter on interviewing skills, I listed the five basic principles of successfully interviewing for a job, for admissions to a school, or really almost any type of interview at all. I have to warn you that these ideas may be unfamiliar, and will definitely be quite different from what you've been taught about winning interviews. #1: Be personable and friendly. Don't try to impress the person who's interviewing you! #2 Make them sell themselves to you. #3 Be honest, but present yourself in a positive light. #4 Don't get defensive. #5 Punt when you don't know the answer to the question. To illustrate the first idea, I told a story from Dale Carnegie's book on How to Win Friends and Influence People, in which he describes his interview with a wealth and powerful man in the hopes of soliciting a donation  for the Boy Scouts of America. This was back in the era many years ago when the Scouts were still very popular. The receptionist who made the appointment warned Dale Carnegie that he would have only 15 minutes, and emphasized that her boss was 100% meticulous about time. He started exactly on time, and ended exactly on time, whether or not you were done, so he better talk fast once the interview started. When the time came, and Dale Carnegie entered the office, the receptionist again reminded him that he'd be kicked out after 15 minutes no matter what! As he walked in, Dale Carnegie spotted a trophy fish proudly displayed on the wall above the rich man's desk, and asked, if the wealthy man he'd caught it. himself, The rich man said he had caught it in lake so and so. Dale Carnegie got excited and said, "I fish there too. Where, exactly, were you fishing on the lake when you caught this fish?" The man told him where his favorite fishing hole was, and they become engrossed in a vibrant conversation about the joys of fishing. Suddenly, the office door opened, and the receptionist appeared and said the time was up. On the way out, the wealthy man said, "Oh, I forgot to ask you what the purpose of the interview was." Dale Carnegie said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that I am trying to raise money to support the Boy Scouts of America." The man replied, "You'll receive a check in the mail tomorrow for a million dollars." And those were the days when that was an enormous amount of money. What's the moral of the story? Relate to the person who's interviewing you as a person, and show an interest in them, instead of pitching your talking points and trying to impress them. People usually make decisions influenced greatly by how much they like the person they are talking to. Don't try to be impressive. Aim for friendly, real and human. How do you do this? Well, let's say that you have an interview with a law firm, hoping to get hired, and you're just out of law school. I used to be the shrink for the University of Pennsylvania Law School, and at the time there were too many law school  graduates looking for too few job openings, and almost no one was hiring. They referred despondent and panicky students to me who'd had a string of rejections. At the time, the top firms had at least 50 to 100 top notch candidates for every position. Was there any hope of starting their careers? I told them to do some research on the person who was going to interview them, or on their firm. Find something interesting about them. Then, at the start of the interview you can say something like this: "I'm so excited to meet you because I've been following your work for some time. I was amazed and blown away by your strategy in the X, Y, and Z case, and I was wondering if you're still using that approach in litigation and how it's been working out? I'd love to hear more about your work, and how you came up with the approach you're using, and what you like the best about this firm." This will get them to talking about themselves. DON'T try to impress them with how great you are . That will just bore them, or turn them off, and it will certainly put you under pressure to perform. This pressure will probably make you anxious, and your  anxiety and insecurity will show. Instead, impress them with how great THEY are. They'll love you! I trained the students in this doing role-playing of imaginary job interviews. Every student I trained in this approach became the #1 choice at every firm they interviewed at! This approach is not just for law students, it's for every type of job, as well as interviews for college, graduate school, and more. Here's the underlying idea. People don't really care much about you. They care about themselves. This is true of all of us. So, use this to your advantage, and you'll suddenly be super happy and glad you were OTHER centered and not SELF centered! Does this mean you should hide your own skills and accomplishments? Of course now. You can answer questions about what you offer with humility and integrity. But that alone will rarely be enough. #2 Make them sell themselves to you. Let's say you're applying for graduate school, and it's very competitive. Again, they have 100 brilliant candidates for every position. Suppose the interview says something challenging, like "As you know, all the top candidates in the Unites States apply to us here at Harvard. Most of them were #1 in the their college classes and several have already been nominated for Nobel Prizes. Why should we be interested in you?" This, of course, is absurd, but I'm taking the worst imaginable question in an interview. Yikes! This sounds impossible, right? How in the world could you respond? Actually, it's easy. You can just say, "Gosh, I don't know if I'd be a good fit here. That's what I'm hoping to learn today. Maybe you can tell me what you're looking for in a top notch candidate. What kinds of candidates have gone on to be stars, and what types have been disappointments? Then I can give you a better answer on whether or not I might be a good fit. Although I love your company, and I'm so impressed with your own career, I wouldn't want to accept a job unless I was convinced I could really contribute to your firm." Is this realistic, or just some David fantasy? During my senior year in college, I was planning to go to graduate school in clinical psychology, since I'd majored in philosophy and psychology seemed like a way more practical career.  However, my college adviser said that medical school would be a far better choice because medications were becoming more and more important in treating mental illnesses, and only psychiatrists could prescribe drugs. I told him that I'd never had any interest in being a medical doctor, and wasn't even a premed student, so there was no way I could get into medical school. I hadn't even had a single biology class in college. He said "That won't be a problem I don't think. You've got the gift of gab, and they probably won't even notice." So, I applied to a number of medical schools and landed an interview at Stanford, and several others. My interview was with someone in the Anatomy Department which was located in the basement of the museum on campus. I went down the stairs and into a room where I met the man who was interviewing me. I said, "It's a bit dark down here. Is this where the medical students dissect their cadavers?" He said, "Absolutely. But it's actually pretty awesome down here. In fact, my laboratory his just down the hall. I said, "Oh, could I see your laboratory? I'd love to take a look and find out what kind of research you do." He seemed excited and as we walked into his lab I noticed all kinds of fancy equipment and read the name on one of them, so kind of photometer or something. I had no idea what it was, but said, "Oh, I see you have an X, Y Z photometer. (or whatever it was). Do you use this in your research?" He said, "Oh, absolutely, it's extremely important in my research." I asked him about the research he did. He excitedly started explaining it, and for the most part I had no idea what he was talking about, but kept expressing interest and asking him for more and more information. I was terrified that he'd ask me questions about my undergraduate work and my research, which of course did not exist. I'd never done any research! Just philosophy classes and such. Well, we had quite the conversation, but after a while he suddenly looked at his watch and said, "Oh, my goodness. We were only supposed to talk for 15 minutes, and we've been talking for nearly two hours. I have to rush over to the medical school quad for an important meeting I'm almost late for. Why don't we walk over in that direction together?" As we were walking out of the basement, he said, "Oh, my goodness, I forgot to ask you who you are and where you're from." I said, "Oh, I'm David Burns from Amherst College." He said, "Well, David Burns, I want you to know that you're the kind of young man we need at the Stanford Medical School.!" I said, "It's really kind of you to say that, but I'm afraid I won't be able to come to the Stanford for medical school." He said, "That's nonsense? Of course you can come! Do you think Harvard is going to make you a better offer? We'll top anything they offer." I said, "Oh no, sir, that's not it. You see, my father is a minister, and we don't have much money, and I've heard that attending medical school would cost more than one hundred thousand dollars. And he believes that borrowing money is a sin." He said, "David Burns, I'm the head of the admissions committee, and that's where I'm headed right now. And I'm going to tell them that you're the #1 choice for admission this year. And you won't have to pay a thing. We'll pay for tuition, room, board, books, expenses, everything. It won't cost you one cent to go to Sanford medical school." I said, "Oh, thank you so much! That's an offer I can't refuse!" I got my acceptance letter two days later and the rest, as they say, is history. But to spell it out. Why was I accepted to a top-flight, highly competitive program when I had absolutely NO credentials? Because I expressed an interest in him, and I was friendly, and I believe that meant a great deal to him. And I'll always be grateful for his help. My wife and I returned to Stanford almost 30 years ago, where I've served on the voluntary (unpaid) faculty at the medical school, teaching  and doing research and continuing to develop TEAM CBT. I turned out to be a terrible medical student, and dropped out for a full year on two different times because I just wasn't the "medical" type. I had very little aptitude or interest in medicine. But I did end up as a psychiatrist, and came to love medicine and healing people who were suffering, and doing research. And my voluntary work is my way of trying to repay my tremendous debt to Stanford! And I'll never forget the kind gentleman who interviewed me. Kyle and I jammed on all five examples, including many additional stories to bring these ideas to life. Kyle used this strategy when interview for his internship in psychology, and it worked like a charm. I would say that I've taught many people how to use these ideas, including family members, students, and colleagues. The impact has been nothing short of incredible. That probably sounds over the top, and I "get it." But the stories are true, and the ideas can change your life. Remember what the Buddha said, 2500 years ago: "Selling yourself sucks! So, Stop it, and do what works!" Warmly, Rhonda, Kyle, and David

Contact information

Kyle is a superb TEAM CBT therapist who practices virtually throughout California. Here's his contact information:  Dr. Kyle Jones