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I feel that wokeness, the moral derangement of the left, has reached some kind of tipping point and the vapors will dissipate on their own. But the craziness of Trumpistan is so provocative and so seemingly justifying of the craziness in Wokistan that they mutually create one another at this point. So if Trump runs in 2024 and if he wins or somebody who is just appealing to the Trumpis cult with the same politics wins, then I have no intuitions as to how long the same last. And now the good fight with Yasha Monk.

Sam Harris is a neuroscientist, philosopher, author, and the host of the Making Sense podcast. He rose to prominence as a member of the “Four Horsemen” of New Atheism, which also included Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Sam Harris discuss the intellectual case for atheism; why both left and right have become more extreme in recent years; and the prospects of a more rational politics in the near future.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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