Introduction

In this thought-provoking episode, Malcolm and Simone delve into the emerging trend of austerity as a new form of hedonism and status signaling in contemporary society. They explore the shift from traditional displays of wealth and indulgence to a growing appreciation for self-discipline, frugality, and intentional living.

The discussion begins with Simone's fascination with Caleb Hammer's YouTube channel, which showcases the financial struggles of individuals burdened by debt and poor spending habits. The couple examines the prevalence of runaway hedonism in modern society, where people prioritize immediate gratification over long-term financial stability and personal well-being.

Malcolm introduces the concept of "voluntary austerity" as a means of distinguishing between true self-discipline and the unfortunate circumstances of poverty. He argues that the ability to delay gratification and make sacrifices for one's future self is a hallmark of genuine austerity, whereas hedonism is driven by involuntary impulses and short-term thinking.

The conversation then shifts to the rise of austerity as a status symbol among influential figures like Elon Musk and the tech nerd bro culture. Malcolm and Simone discuss how signaling a lack of pretension and an embrace of frugality has become a way for the wealthy and powerful to differentiate themselves from those who rely on traditional displays of opulence.

Simone highlights the growing interest in austere practices such as intermittent fasting, cold plunges, and minimalist lifestyles, noting that while many people aspire to these habits, few manage to follow through consistently. She suggests that the gap between interest and action indicates that austerity is more of a status thing than a genuine recognition of the unsustainable nature of hedonistic living.

The couple also explores the potential for austerity to become a true status signaler, positing that by redefining masculinity and femininity around self-discipline and personal industry, society can shift away from the glorification of excess and towards a more sustainable and fulfilling way of life.

Throughout the episode, Malcolm and Simone touch on various examples of hedonistic behavior, from the normalization of suicidal ideation among younger generations to the reliance on food delivery services like DoorDash. They emphasize the importance of contextualizing oneself as part of an unbroken chain of past and future selves, a perspective that can foster a genuine appreciation for austerity and long-term planning.

Join Malcolm and Simone as they explore the complex interplay between hedonism and austerity, the role of status signaling in shaping cultural values, and the potential for a societal shift towards a more intentional and purposeful way of living.

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, gorgeous.

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. It is wonderful to be here with you today. And what I wanted to talk about today was just a thought that came to me in sort of the, the younger groups where I'm like, these are like the cool, competent, younger people I know. And this trend I see, Of austerity is the new hedonism.

And then I started to think about this line more and I was like, well, let's, let's elaborate on this. It is voluntary. Austerity is the new involuntary hedonism. And when I brought this to you, something that you pointed out that I thought was really interesting is that hedonism is always involuntary and austerity is always voluntary.

To have less. Due to reasons outside of your control is just [00:01:00] poverty. Yes, it's not austerity. Austerity is intentional self regulation. Whereas with hedonism, because it is being driven by your internal instincts, things that you did not choose to want to feel, It is always a thing that you are approaching outside of your control.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: So I wanted you to elaborate on this topic in terms of how it relates to the world today and, and, and social status.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I, I do think that there are different layers to this because some of the layers are just new forms of hedonism, I would argue. And I mean, I'd even argue Elaborate on what you mean by that.

Give

Malcolm Collins: some

Simone Collins: examples. Yeah. Well, I mean, I would argue that the dopamine hit that I get from saving money is similar to the dopamine hit that many people get from spending money. And whereas spending money, like really stresses me out. So

Malcolm Collins: I don't know about this, like one of your favorite shows these days.

So people who don't know this, she talks about it all the time. It's like [00:02:00] her core guilty pleasure show right now is a show where people put money into envelopes. Explain this. No, no,

Simone Collins: no, no. Actually my, my favorite. Current YouTube binge is Caleb Hammer's channel. He interviews people, like he has guests on who need help with their finances, typically because they're in crippling debt and really spending their money poorly.

And then he creates new, very austere spending programs for them and budgets and talks about how like, well, for the next like year, you're not going to go out to eat. You're not going to do anything fun at all. You're going to work. You know, the ton to pay off all this insane debt so they can get back to a good place.

And I just find it insanely comforting, but I did discover this actually

Malcolm Collins: do

Simone Collins: it. Well, and he has people on like six months later sometimes to do followups. And it does seem very, it's very unusual for somebody to have actually.

Malcolm Collins: And what happens to them? Have they like lost all their stuff? Have things foreclosed on them?

Or are they just getting more debt? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Some of the [00:03:00] people have in followups, improve their behavior a little bit, but just not a lot. Like they're still spending more than they should be. They're not following their budget. But a lot of people are showing up and, you know, even in their early twenties with insane amounts of debt on really dumb stuff, like they bought a Tesla totally on finance that they have no ability to pay off.

And they just kind of. I've been noticing a lot of Americans use credit cards the way that we would use like an exclusively for fun budget. Meaning that like, as long as I have a limit on my credit card and I can keep spending it, I can spend this on whatever I want. And I can go take my friends out to dinner.

I can travel, I can take a cruise and that's not a problem. But yeah, no, I did discover Caleb Hammer's channel after I discovered the whole genre of. Envelope budgeting on YouTube where you don't see a person or an interview or anything like that. You see, just a [00:04:00] pair of hands on a desk taking a bi weekly payroll or monthly earnings in cash, and then putting them into little envelopes.

And there's this whole cottage industry that has arisen around this with. People selling on Etsy, like shops of like their templates for like the little, like money holders you can buy and everything like that. And also even like templates for like forms of budgets and little contests you can create for yourself around saving for different things.

Because the way the envelope budgeting works, and in fact, we actually do something kind of similar is you, every time you get a paycheck, put like a certain amount of money toward like, this is for fun. This is for travel. This is for, you know, insurance. This is for bills. This is for whatever. And you only spend money that you have, which is what we do.

Just in bank accounts. But, but I would just want to say like the, the, the rise of these types of YouTube channels where like a lot of people are just watching other people carefully budget their money or other people [00:05:00] build extremely disciplined financial plans. Is growing and I find it interesting because these are people With runaway hedonism.

You can see it in like, because I mean, on, on Caleb Hammer's channel, he'll let go through people's credit card statements and go through everything. Like they're waxing appointments, each restaurant they'll go to. He'll like, and he'll s**t on the restaurants. He'll be like in and out burger. Like you can't afford this.

And what a shitty burger. And you know, like he just gets really, really riled up. It's very entertaining.

Malcolm Collins: I don't understand how people afford restaurants. Like Simone and I have talked about there. The few things that like people. Like, there's institutions in our society that I see, and I'm like we, you know, we make a decent amount of money not, not like a ton, a ton, but like, we're okay and we live in an area that is, you know, not, not like the most expensive area, right, so, I'm like, how, how in this area that is not a particularly wealthy area are there, like, Restaurants like who is going to a restaurant?

[00:06:00] Like I don't get it. I can understand going to a restaurant Maybe like once every three months, but like that's clearly not happening and then bars Why would you go to a bar? How do bars even work in like the suburbs where we live? I mean clearly you can only get to it by driving. How are you getting home?

Is everybody taking a cab home? They're taking Uber.

Simone Collins: Also like I'm getting these insights into how people live by like seeing the financial statements on this show so I also find it this amazing slice of life show because you're seeing how people live through the way they spend their money. But it is interesting, I mean one, no, people can't afford this.

Two, we are in a society that's just pervaded by runaway hedonism, where people cannot even bring themselves to think about the future and the pain that they're giving to their future selves. I mean, like the constant theme on Caleb Hammer's channel is you're going to die on a Walmart floor. Like, you know, like this is, this is bad.

Like you have no retirement, you are completely screwed and you're in insane debt. And yet [00:07:00] these people, like who frequently come in for follow ups, don't change their behavior. But, but, but, there's this growing interest in austerity, which is why I think you're really astute to say there's this increasing interest in austerity, because there totally is.

People are watching this, and people are going on the show, like they, They see these plans and they find them very appealing. I think in a very similar way that people find like trad wifery very

Malcolm Collins: appealing. Well, I mean, I want to elevate an idea here that you often tell me about how you think about this.

Like when you are denying yourself something in the present to indulge in it in the future, whether that is saving or anything like that. And it can be a moral indulgence. Like you indulge in giving it away or spending it on, on our projects to try to make the world a better place. And cause we don't actually really donate to external charities.

We only donate to charities we manage because she has worked in external charities and she doesn't believe that they're efficacious at all, but we do you know, give away a significant amount of our money to our charities and stuff like that. And what you say is, well, I'm [00:08:00] not really Simone in the future.

Right? Like, but I'm okay with sacrificing now for that person for Simone in the future. And with the urban monoculture, this progressive movement, there's this idea. And we've talked about this was like the Hayes movement and stuff like that. Like, why is it bad to tell a fat person being fat is unhealthy?

Even though that would help them in the longterm to like accept this as a reality. Like, yeah, obvious reality. And it's because it causes pain in the moment. And it is a cultural system that has elevated their in the moment identity over their future identity. But what's really interesting about this elevation versus the people who do make sacrifices in the present for their future selves, If for, for their ability to act in society is that these two people are showing how they themselves judge them, their future selves.

Yeah. So the individual who is okay with letting themselves die on a Walmart floor so that they can do whatever they want now, they are doing that because they don't, [00:09:00] Care about that future version of themselves. They hold on. Hold on. Just let me finish this thought. Okay. They don't care about that. They do not admire that future iteration of themselves.

They don't see it as something great or good or worth investing it. Whereas for you, Or me, the future version of ourselves is always better than the current version of ourselves if we are doing everything right and therefore more deserving of the sacrifices our present self is making than our present self would be if we indulged in those things.

Now, what were you going to say?

Simone Collins: Pushing back. There is research that has looked at how people plan for the future and like the, the extent to which they're willing to commit to their future selves. And a lot of it just has to do with priming. And I think what's going on is people are literally not thinking about their future selves.

They're just, they're like, I, I cannot, I cannot think about that. I think a lot of this is about contextualization. So I will dig up those studies and send them to you. And we can include links in the, in the description, [00:10:00] because it is interesting how just getting people to think about themselves in the future or see pictures of themselves in the future can get people to be like, Oh, wait,

Malcolm Collins: I actually care.

It's interesting that you mentioned this. So something that I've seen talked about a lot recently is like the growing normalization of suicidal ideation. But before I go down that route, people are probably wondering what I'm snacking on. And it is actually relevant to the topic of this video.

This is cheese, my fancy cheese. But you should check out one of my fancy cheeses. And it is actually, I mean, it tastes enormously fancy. Hold

Simone Collins: the mic to, well, hold on, hold the mic to your mouth. You have to like, you're not talking to your mic.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry, it tastes enormously fancy, to me at least. But, and, and it, it has this level of hedonism to it that in a historic time period would have been considered like the most indulgent of hedonisms.

Yet, [00:11:00] within our time period, It is something that people look at and they're like, that's a fairly cheap cheese. You know, that's a what that lasts you like a few days and that's a 4 cheese, you know, like what, what, how is that hedonism? Right. And it's hedonism in its complexity, like if you're talking about it versus going out to get like a nice burger or something, an artisan cheese is always going to have more complexity of flavor, it's going to have more punch, it's going to be better calorically, it's going to be better financially for you, and this was also something I was thinking about in terms of the way that people indulge in unique flavors and stuff like that, is many of the Sort of categories of food that you can indulge in with unique behave flavors are either enormously expensive like cocktails unless you're making them at home and and also alcoholic or Wines which are alcoholic or whiskeys which are alcoholic or beers which are alcoholic and yet, There there's not as many in the non talking to the mic.

There's [00:12:00] not as many in the non alcoholic categories it but but and just about cheeses so people understand how people used to relate to cheeses Because I studied medieval Scottish history when I was at St. Andrews at University of Scotland, that's where I did my undergrad. And they used to collect taxes in cheese because it was a, a portable luxury good that people could make and store for long times in a sort of distributed area.

Simone Collins: Similar to how the Mayans collected cacao beans, and there were even counterfeit cacao

Malcolm Collins: beans. Yes! Well, and I just love that I'm eating, basically, gold. Money. Just for context. That is much more flavorful and complex and nuanced than many meals. And this is also what I'm thinking of with hedonism is people elevate the forms of hedonism, which gives them status within their society, you know, that can be used for, for social status or that remove effort from them instead of the forms of hedonism.

Like when you're being intentional about hedonism. Like I want to indulge in a complex flavor [00:13:00] that is very sharp and very, you know, overwhelming. Like artisanal cheeses work great for that. You don't actually need to go out and do all of this other stuff, which is really interesting. That's

Simone Collins: funny. I thought you were eating Our Easter candy because we have these beautiful candy jars down in our kitchen full of Easter themed candy but little does anyone

Malcolm Collins: know from last year?

Yeah, okay, so people should know all of our eastern candy every time after a holiday We have it marked whenever everything goes on sale And we go out and we buy all the like extra halloween candy and then we buy enough to last us to easter And then at the end of easter we buy enough for for for next year But most of the easter stuff we have out now is all Actually all of it It's all from last year.

Because a lot of these holiday candies, they don't expire for a long time. But now I want to talk about suicidal ideation. And the role, one thing that I, I, I hear. And these Gen Z and Gen Alpha videos, especially from like leftist [00:14:00] influencers, it is apparently now becoming pretty common. And this is especially true in the context of now that they're beginning to accept like pronatalism as a real concern.

And they're like, look, when people are like, what are you going to be doing when you're old? And they just plan to end it before then. They're like, I'll do what I can now to be happy. But the truth is, is I don't have savings. I don't have kids. There's not really a point to live after a certain point in my life.

And historically in our society, this is not something we ever had. You know, I hear these influencers say really interesting things and it shows how twisted our society has become. So when they were talking about, well, there was the mental health crisis, right? And this influencer was saying, I'll see if I can find the video to link to it here.

I think it's a very complex conversation as to why Gen Z is not wanting to have kids. Because it doesn't just pertain to financial issues or inflation eating out our asses clean. But Gen Z has a rampant problem with mental health issues that have gone long [00:15:00] unaddressed. Mostly for the reason being that the mental health system is largely lacking.

For example, I am still on a wait list to see a psychologist. It has been what? Eight months? Nine months? I can't even remember the last time that I even followed up on that. Because the last time I did, I remember calling the psychologist and he's on the phone like, well, I'm actually leaving for holidays next week, so we're going to be pretty backed up.

I'll give you a call in a few weeks time. I saved the day in my phone and everything like that. I never got a call. So a week later, I called them again and I was like, Hey, just following up, blah, blah, blah. Well, actually, no, we don't have any appointments available until mid December. This was in, I think June last year, .

Malcolm Collins: And she's like, well, the way we saw the mental health crisis, Is we, we, it's caused by not enough psychologists. That's what the mental health crisis is caused by. We need to have more psychologists, more inexpensively accessible. And here I am [00:16:00] being like, okay, so you think that the mental health crisis is unique to Gen Z.

Do you realize that like, psychologists didn't really even exist at like a large scale before like, 30 years ago? Like, yeah, yeah, there were some psychologists, but they were incredibly rare, and almost nobody went to them. It was much more likely that a person regularly went to a fortune teller than a psychologist.

And if you go, you know, the Old West or something, I was playing Red Dead Redemption 2 recently, which I think is an interesting depiction of the Old West. Or, you know, when we read the story about my ancestors, you know, the account of their life in the episode of people used to like their parents.

You know, these were not people where anyone would go to a psychologist. And yet they had enormously better mental health than individuals today. It is this self indulgence which is causing these negative externalities.

I mean, it genuinely worries me that somebody could build up half a million followers instilled have takes. That are. So uneducated and so [00:17:00] ungrounded from reality to accurately note that yes, mental health does have something to do is why people aren't having kids anymore. But then to think that it's due to there not being enough psychologists to have no historical context to know that this psychology industry. It's a completely modern phenomenon that correlates with the mental health crisis. I E it appears that the mental health crisis is a result. Of too many psychologists and psychologists, like thinking invading mainstream, , discussions of dealing with mental health instead of. Just nutting up, which is what we used to do, which it turns out is a much more psychologically healthy way to deal with the challenges in your life.

Then. To medicalize it. And to externalize it. And do you believe you need to see this sort of secular confessionary class?

Malcolm Collins: But also it's, it's an indulgence in a lifestyle and in a cultural [00:18:00] system that doesn't really have a plan because the cultural system is so optimized for in the moment hedonism, it doesn't really have a plan for the future.

And when people begin to realize this, there is. Two things they can do. They can go against their cultural group. They can go and say, hey, maybe these religious weirdo rightists, people like the Collinses, who we say have made up some weird cult for their family. It's like, why would they do that? Why would they recreate religion for our family?

And it's like, because it's other things, the alternative. Not working. It is obviously not working. And I think that's really interesting because in history we've never seen this. In history, we've never seen a world in which a lot of society was just like, yeah, after my, like, golden years you know, after I hit 30 or 35, I'm, it's over for me.

I'm not really planning for past that stage. And Yeah, I mean,

Simone Collins: although, I guess there were people who were, like, very [00:19:00] happy to go out and die in war. So, I don't know if that's Yeah, but they were

Malcolm Collins: dying for something bigger than themselves. They were, yeah. What, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, and if you've sort of seen this nihilism that's become so common within this generation.

Simone Collins: I think I've seen more of the examples of the interest in austerity, but then of course failure to follow through on it, which is what I find really interesting. Because it's not just showing up in like, financial niches or people getting into being a trad wife or whatever. Think about all the weird things.

Diet, like health diets that are so big, you know, going keto going paleo or intermittent fasting is so popular. Now people are doing cold plunges, like it's becoming very high class to have a cold plunge pool to, you know, really carefully diet maybe with the help of help of Ozempic, but like people are actually successfully losing weight now.

It seems to be also that austerity even [00:20:00] among the very well resourced is a status signaler. So it's not just picking up, I think because people don't

Malcolm Collins: realize that I love your word, your wording here. No, but it is a status signaler. It is a status signaler. And we're increasingly seeing this. So when you look at like the tech nerd bro culture and you look at like the wealthiest people in the world you know, you can look at Sam Bakeman freed, for example, who was one of the wealthiest people in the world for a while, and he would constantly attempt to signal his austerity.

Now he was really bad at it. I mean, he succumbed to hedonism or I can't believe anyone believed that he would actually had any level of austerity when he couldn't even resist playing video games and board meetings. But I mean, talk about succumbing to in the moment hedonism like a maniac. But then the other person who I think actually does live with a level of austerity is Elon Musk.

At least he aspires to live with some austerity. I won't say that he succeeds in it, but you see this in his documentaries and stuff like this. This aspiration to live A degree of austerity.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like when he sort of decided to not have a home for a long time, [00:21:00] but I don't know, he might be a good example of the interplay between those two things, right?

Because he still does pretty hedonistic things. And I think in the biography on him by Walter Isaacson, there was this one part where I think he started intermittent fasting and like dieting really carefully, but then he wasn't like quite going all the way. Like then he'd like, Go to a fast food joint and get really shitty food because he'd be like, yeah, this is my one like window where I can eat.

That means I can eat anything I want. So I think that he's, I mean, he is the everyman. Like, I think a lot of people identify with Elon Musk because he's like the id of a certain segment.

Malcolm Collins: It's like, it reminds me of this Simpsons episode. Where Homer Simpson gains a lot of power and he gets to design a car and he puts domes all over it.

Simone Collins: Just like the Tesla has a fart noise in the passenger seat. It does? Yeah, can turn it on. So when they sit down, it makes a fart [00:22:00] noise. Because like I said, Elon Musk represents the id of a certain incredibly intelligent, but also very

Malcolm Collins: Think about what he's signaling was that which is a lack of pretension.

He gets jokes.

Simone Collins: He knows how to have

Malcolm Collins: fun. No, no. But what I'm saying is, is, is he signaling by allowing stuff like that, a lack of pretension, which is in itself a status signal to say, I don't need pretension to signal status to

Simone Collins: other individuals. I don't know. I mean, you get the impression he does. Genuinely finds it funny too, and is doing it because he can.

But of course, many things can be true at the same time. But yeah, no, I do think that it's becoming cool to be austere, and that the, to me, the fact that it seems that more people are interested in austerity than are actually practicing it, or apparently capable of practicing it, implies to me that this is more of a status thing.

Then it is a recognition that our current way of life and focus on hedonism is [00:23:00] unsustainable. But you imply with the thesis of your argument that that's not true and that we will see a significant number of people genuinely become austere and actually follow through. Which

Malcolm Collins: I don't think that I think when you can build austerity into a form of status signaling.

Oh, which I think we are getting close to doing in a society, right? Yeah. IE. And this is, this is one of the, the, the, the. Problems with many wealth or high status people in the past, you know, you look like an Andrew Tate or something like that, where their lifestyle is defined by a lack of austerity and personal industry, right?

That when we redefine, and this is what masculinity used to be, you know, this is what ideal femininity used to be, right? Like there was a masculine form of austerity and a feminine form of austerity. When we redefine these as positive qualities, both in partners and people we look up to and people who we signal boost, which is [00:24:00] now possible with these new types of platforms we have and stuff like that.

I mean, one of the problems with individuals who elevated austerity, which we talked about in our most recent track well, depending on when this goes live, it was track four, is that cultural sources that elevate austerity as a thing of goodness are intrinsically at odds and hostile to the wealthy and powerful in our society because it devalues the thing that they want to do with that wealth and value.

You know, now they've, they've reached this role within our society. Now they have all this power. Now they want to use it to do whatever they feel like. Right. And if, if you assign austerity as a positive, a moral metric Well, now you're devaluing those that have power, so you are a threat. And it's really interesting, you even see this in communist systems.

Like, communists always promote austerity until they have power, and then it's, well, You know, austerity for the, the, the, the middle of the population at least, but certainly not for the people who are running this government. I mean, we [00:25:00] need our constant caviar shipments and private boats and military parades.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I think anyone will start to justify, and I see this in the guests on Caleb Hammer's YouTube channel slash podcast all the time who are like, Oh, well, you know, I don't have time. To do this. And this is why I get DoorDash all the, like every single day

Malcolm Collins: order out. I don't even understand DoorDash.

Who

Simone Collins: can afford DoorDash? Nobody can, but you would not believe the number of people who are apparently using it. And you know, so, but they're like, you know, my time is more valuable. You know, I just don't have time. And I think it's very easy for anyone, no matter how austere or like mission driven, they see themselves to be to, if they did not keep themselves honest over time, start spending.

preposterous amounts of money on things that they think are necessary and fully appropriate that really are not. I think what's interesting is, is if there could be some way. where we can tie austerity becoming a status [00:26:00] signaler with the kind of actually effective interventions that cause people to start serving their future selves.

Which has been found in this research of like actually thinking about your future self, more contextualizing yourself as part of this, this unbroken chain of people that we could actually see some really positive change. For example, like on a regular basis, you know, like waddle around the house talking to myself all the time.

Like you

Malcolm Collins: guys don't know that she's just bat insane.

Simone Collins: I believe the correct and technical term is bat s**t. Crazy. Not that insane. Malcolm Collins. Thank you. Yeah. I actually, I need to look into the origin of that. Like, is there maybe something like associated with the madness related disease related to accidentally ingesting. Fecal matter from bats. I'm going to have to look this up.

For anyone wondering it comes from the term bats in the Belfry, which was a Belfry. Part of a church. And when it wasn't in use, [00:27:00] it would get bats in it. And that was like, your brain's not in use. They were saying. , and then people in modern times just added the word s**t to it because it sounds awesome.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, actually. Right? That s**t crazy. But anyway, so I will walk around the house and like, if, if for example, like, you know, something has been like prepped for me by my past self, I'll be like, Oh, thank you. Past Simone. Like, wow. Past Simone was awesome. And then I will take a lot of pride. And like setting things up for like Simone of tomorrow morning to make sure that she has an easier morning and then

Malcolm Collins: letters to the different iterations of yourself addressed to different iterations of yourself.

Yeah. Where she really fully, this is even before we met, sees herself at different frames of time. As entirely different people.

Simone Collins: But I'm always working in service to future Simones, but also thinking back to past Simones, and thinking like, wow, she like, deserves a lot of praise and credit for really setting me up well.

And I think if people contextualized that more [00:28:00] into their lives and started seeing their lives like that, they, they would start to actually gain genuine hedonic satisfaction. From austerity, because austerity is almost always an action or a sacrifice that's taken in favor of the future.

Malcolm Collins: Well, for the audience who may have struggled with like what you're talking about here, it's like the shipothetia thought experiment, you know, like boards fall off of a ship over time, and they're replaced over time, when it gets to the final port, it has none of the original boards, is it a different ship, or is it the original ship?

You are basically taking the answer of every time a board falls off, it's meaningfully a new ship. But it's also meaningfully part of a continuum of ships and therefore it's serving the future interest of the ship. Yeah, what

Simone Collins: I'm serving, like any conscious moment of my life, is the mission of transporting my cargo, my people, whatever.

Like, it's not about the material composition of the ship, it is about the act of conveying. Passengers or cargo from one port to [00:29:00] another. And, and I think when people cadastralize themselves as that and seeing themselves in service to that, then it's very different. And again, I, please remind me to send you those studies so you can see like, it does really affect people's decision making

Malcolm Collins: I love you and I love your crazy show shows, and if you wanted to end on a thought, you could end on the craziest thing that people have overindulged in.

Yeah, on the show.

Simone Collins: Oh God. Honestly, no, it's really mundane stuff. It is literally just door dash restaurants, cars and sometimes travel, but it's, it is, that's the thing is like, if it'd be one thing, if it was like, oh, you know, I bought You know, a yacht that was, you know, stranded in the desert, middle of the desert, and I was going to create a resort around it, you know, like something crazy.

Right. But it's never that it's so basic.

Malcolm Collins: And that's, and that's what it is, is that they're wasting money on things that aren't even inspired. I'm not even crazy. Sad. I love you to death Simone. And often the people who waste their money on crazy things, they [00:30:00] tend to make it back again. I've noticed.

Simone Collins: That's true. Well, and that's, that's Elon Musk, right? Like he's blown his money. On insanely, insanely risky investments. And what's, what's the, the problem with these people who may end up being perpetually poor is that they pretty much always spend their money on what Caleb hammer describes as taquitos, which is just like dumb impulse buys.

Like you go into a seven 11 and you buy taquitos and he'll just like go through people's statements and be like taquitos, taquitos, taquitos. And that's the thing. So, yeah, I kind of liked that. That's an interesting, maybe. Someday, even if we have enough to flesh that out, a topic for a future podcast is the difference between, you know, like dumb spending versus dumb spending.

Malcolm Collins: All right. I love you to decibel. I love you too. Gorgeous.