So it's definitely

been like really embedded deeply into the core of the last few years. I'd love to learn more about what you're talking about here. It sounds very powerful. This design thinking. And so I think that's a very important thing to say. I think that's a very important thing to say. I think that's a very important thing to say. I think that's a very important thing to say. You've had a powerful quote I read. The stakes are high. So we shouldn't relegate design thinking solely to those with design in their title as a noun. Design is a profession, but as a verb, it's the act of considered construction. Can you tell us more about, again, how do you operationalize a thoughtful, deep, insightful principle like that? And how do you get others, your engineers, the partners you work with, and how do you get the

participants of design in their work? Okay. Well, I mean, that's one not an easy. Solution, I guess. But the thing that works is, you know, what's distinct about my team is we operate on, you know, very deep problems. We work on them. We're not a group that goes and implements large processes for the company. What we do is we work through particular problem spaces with the company. And by going through it together, they learn. And so it's one of those like you teach at once, and then they learn how to do it. And then it kind of gets built in their culture. And we saw this with a team that we worked with a few years ago where we kind of, we worked really closely with them on some of our emerging tech around face and speech and mixed reality. And we embedded a lot of this thinking into the team just through the act of working through it together. And we're trying to do, you know, new products. And right from the beginning, they set up a whole ethics effort and pull together a V team and said, oh, we know how to do this. And so the way that we work is through those small engagements and we do enough of them in pockets around, you know, cloud and AI. And through that, those teams learn, and then they kind of bring other groups along. And so what we're trying to do is like we're trying to teach through doing. And yet, when we train together, we can act, they're able to then teach and do on their own as well. And I think that's how you really learn. Like, you can have people watch videos. You can give people lists of things to do. You can give them the tools to go and do it. But you do have to take people through the process, particularly when it's requiring a new muscle that they have to develop. And that's what you have to do for folks that aren't in a design discipline. When you think about the design discipline, if you engage user researchers, people that do this type of thinking as part of their practice. It's a very different conversation. We were in a design workshop, I don't know, two weeks ago. And it was a workshop we would traditionally day with, you know, our engineers or PMs, and we'd run into design designers were like, oh yeah, we get this boom, boom, boom, boom. They started just riffing on it and thinking about it because they are in that natural space where they're interfacing with end customers or end stakeholders and the technology. And they are these folks that are kind of brokering or mediating that experience between the two. And so it's for them, it's a natural extension to think about, okay, what are the stakeholders, how might they be impacted? Well, let's bring them in. Let's talk to them. They already have processes around that. And so from that standpoint, the design community is just a natural place and they already understand it. We just have to add a few more things to their vocabulary. And then on the other side, you know, PMs and engineers, we work through it together and they're like, oh, I get that muscle. That's what design thinking means or that's what it means to do this. And then they feel more confident they can do it again themselves. We don't need to be around anymore. And so for my standpoint, it's always like, start small, work through something really messy together, develop that muscle and confidence. And then they're off, they can go do it. Well, let's go do it somewhere else. It's hard at a big company because we do so many of these, but it starts to snowball after a while too, right? And this is again, like you have to have durability in your investment. You have to say, I'm willing to look past three months or six months. I'm willing to invest over multi years because this is again a culture effort. And one, we're building that moral imagination or flexing that muscle that we didn't necessarily have built into some of those disciplines. So we're just trying to do it on the ground. And then when you combine that with the groups that are doing broad horizontal efforts around the company, it becomes quite powerful. They fit together really

well.