Navigating Divorce with Friendship and Philosophy

Today on Upstream, we’re releasing an episode from Modern Relationships which originally aired on February 28, 2025 where Erik Torenberg interviews philosophy professors Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks about their unconventional marriage, the role of philosophy in their relationship, the impact of their public profile, and how they balance personal and philosophical life together.

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RECOMMENDED PODCASTS: 

🎙️Check out Modern Relationships, where Erik Torenberg interviews tech power couples and leading thinkers to explore how ambitious people actually make partnerships work. This season's guests include: Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova, Kristen Berman & Phil Levin, Rob Henderson, and Liv Boeree & Igor Kurganov.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod 

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LINKS:

New Yorker article on Agnes and Arnold, by Rachel Aviv: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/13/agnes-callard-profile-marriage-philosophy

Agnes Callard: https://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/a-callard

Arnold Brooks: https://philosophy.uchicago.edu/arnold-brooks 

Pre-order Agnes Callard's new book Open Socrates: https://wwnorton.com/books/open-socrates 

Agnes Callard on Upstream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JotaCsaG3Y 

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X / TWITTER:

@AgnesCallard

@eriktorenberg

@turpentinemedia

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HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE:

• Agnes Callard and Arnold Brooks are philosophy professors at University of Chicago who met when she was his teacher, leading to her divorce from Ben and marriage to Arnold.
• Agnes was initially attracted to Arnold's remarkable ability to interpret Aristotle, which she considered more impressive than conventional attractive qualities.
• Arnold was drawn to Agnes as a "fellow philosopher" in a specific way he hadn't experienced with anyone else before.
• Their philosophical disagreement centers on whether marriage is something achievable to build upon (Arnold's view) or an indefinite pursuit toward an ideal that may be beyond reach (Agnes's view).
• Agnes provocatively stated "marriage is a preparation for divorce" - not meaning marriages should end, but that relationships require navigating difficult circumstances.
• They maintain an unusual living arrangement where Agnes, Arnold, and her ex-husband Ben all live together and co-parent.
• Arnold says his primary attraction is simply witnessing Agnes's way of living, which doesn't require reciprocation.
• They caution against basing relationships solely on reciprocal goods (I support you, you support me).
• Their approach to raising "interesting" children involves asking them abstract questions rather than concrete ones.
• Their New Yorker profile brought public attention that Agnes believes says more about readers' fascination than about their actual relationship.