Is There a Difference Between Religious and Non-Religious?

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Religion as a concept is this epi phenomenon of liberalism, or an epi phenomenon. There were these things that were causing too many problems to be included fully and full bloodedly in politics. And so in the case of metaphysical liberalism, a la rousseau, the ideas just a fully transform religion into something that can co operate with liberal democracy. If you want to tell me that wokeness is a religion in that respect, i have a much harder time imagining why. It just seems to be that the argument in that case is wawokeness is an ideology that functioning somewhat beyond public reason. The arguments are not being adequately fielded for the right reasons.

Elizabeth Bruenig is a staff writer at The Atlantic and a Catholic socialist who writes on topics as varied as capital punishment and mothering two children while in her twenties. Her work is uniquely marked by her ruby-red Texas upbringing, the elite professional world she now inhabits, and her deep sense of morality, which draws from both Christian theology and left-wing politics.

In a wide-ranging conversation, Elizabeth Bruenig and Yascha Mounk debate the importance of dialogue across moral perspectives, whether wokeness bears any resemblance to theology, and how religious conviction can give rise to an authentically liberal defense of free speech.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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