Passing, Claiming Heritage, and Woke Rules

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the evolving discourse around race, identity, and mixed-race marriage. They explore how recent cultural and political shifts—especially on the far left—have led to new critiques of interracial relationships, even labeling them as problematic or “racist.” The discussion covers Dungeons & Dragons’ controversial changes to mixed-race characters, the shifting definitions of racism, and real-world examples from politics and academia. The conversation is both thought-provoking and irreverent, challenging mainstream narratives and encouraging viewers to question what it really means to be “post-racist” in today’s society.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be discussing a few topics. One is on how the far left have begun to attack and see interracial marriages and interracial humans as an inherently racist concept. The far left.

Simone Collins (2): Wait, hold

Malcolm Collins: on. I don’t know if you know this, Simone, this happened a few years ago.

‘cause it’s one of the things we’re gonna be talking about this, but did you know that d and d no longer allows characters to create mixed race characters? Wait, so like

Simone Collins (2): an elf can’t marry an ork or no such

Malcolm Collins: thing as half? No. So you can have a character that is technically a half elf. IE their mom is an alpha, but the, but the husband’s a, a human.

Okay. But they can only have the traits of either elves or humans. They can’t have the traits of both. So basically you have to choose one of your parents, and that’s your real ethnicity. Like this is considered less offensive than being mixed race. And we’re gonna be going over this incident that happened a few years ago because I think it’s actually interesting and [00:01:00] that it explains the psychology of how they think race mixing is okay.

And how they think it’s not okay. And we’ll be going into quotes from famous democratic politicians and media figures, basically attacking the concept of mixed race marriages. Oh my God, what. And on top of all that I think that this is interesting to discuss, not from a haha, look at them, they’re the racist.

Now perspective, like anybody who’s saying knows that. It’s more interesting to study from sort of the anthropological perspective of what is racism mean today to sustain people. What does it mean to Democrats? Where do we go? Societally and where are they going societally in terms of their understanding of race.

And it’s where I’ll be laying out a new concept, which I would say is what we are which I call post racist. Or if you want a longer term for it, post scientific racist which is to say. I think that the way that we [00:02:00] should relate to ethnicities and racial groups as a society mm-hmm. Is to, and this is what I would say is the position of the post racist right.

Rather than the anti-racist mm-hmm. Is to say that, you know, there are differences between groups. What those differences are might be hard to quantify, but like, you shouldn’t like re or freak out just ‘cause somebody’s like, this group is different from this group. Because when you do you can lead to really systemic damage to some populations.

Like, for example, a lot of black women are completely unaware. Did they have, I think it’s 50% higher rate of pregnancy complications in early pregnancy terminations than white women do. And so they, they don’t take, because they, they’ve been grown up told you’re biologically exactly like a white woman.

And so they don’t make and take this into account when they’re planning their fertility window, which is why when you’re looking at Americans who are over the bottom, I wanna say like 20% of income blacks have the lowest fertility rate because the, the, the black people who like. Plan, go to school, everything like that.

They, they are [00:03:00] unaware that their biology is gonna make this harder for them than it is in their, their, their white and Asian friends. Then you’ve got the, the problem of so, so. We don’t do that. But we accept our differences and we value our differences. Like humanity is good because we are diverse, and it is through that diversity that we can challenge things and learn from each other, right?

Like our first thought both the wokes and the racist do, this is what we pointed out before. It’s when they see a group out competing them. And I laid out this theory before, but it’s a very important theory to, to understand when you’re talking about differences between groups. IE. This group has more money or more political power or more success than this group.

There are only three explanations for that. One explanation is cultural differences. One explanation is genetic differences, and the other explanation is they put some sort of something systemic into practice that basically cheats the system in their favor.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And the problem is, is that [00:04:00] when you say that groups are not culturally different.

And anybody who says that certainly believes groups aren’t genetically different, it means you assume all differences are due to somebody cheating. And you know, this is as true when BLM says that they’ve been cheated by white populations as it is when white supremacists say that the Jews cheated them.

You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a toxic similarity between these two groups

Simone Collins (2): for sure.

Malcolm Collins: The post racist seems and says, I won’t fall for that. I will admit that some groups. Can create systemic biases in their favor. Yeah. As Simone talked about, you know, like Vietnamese nail salons and stuff like that.

Cartels

Simone Collins (2): and the Patel Motels, et cetera. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And that sometimes a society can, even through slavery or something, you know, create dramatic systemic advantages for certain groups. Mm-hmm. But that it is important to focus on cultural differences. And eventually when it’s was in the realm of things we can control genetic differences

Malcolm Collins (2): mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Just as much. Yeah. The reason why we don’t focus much on genetic [00:05:00] differences right now is it’s just not something you could do much about. So, being aware that it exists. Is different. And, and note here, I have made no claims about differences in say IQ between Es ethnic groups. Mm-hmm. We have never ever said that.

And we, we won’t say that. But I wanna go into the DD thing because I think it’s interesting and then we’re gonna go into quotes where, this is so crazy though. Just

Simone Collins (2): like the very premise that you set out is so blowing my mind because I grew up believing that racism was. I hate this group or this group is bad.

And now I’m realizing that all the racism that people are being accused of, like within our social networks is how dare you recognize genetic differences? Which is insane. But that also, yeah, the only groups I know of that are like, this group is evil. Are the ones saying, are you ashamed of your white privilege?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Which is so crazy. We had somebody

Malcolm Collins: ask us that a couple days ago. That’s why this is top of mind.

Simone Collins (2): Okay, go on though. This is, this is just blowing my mind because I, I had [00:06:00] always thought that like the racism that you know, like the definition of racism has always. Like, oh, it hasn’t changed, but like, man, the, it really has.

Yeah, it has changed.

Malcolm Collins: And I think we need a new definition for whatever wokes are, because I think you can just call them racist, but they’re, they’re kind of something new that has the qualities that would’ve been defined as racist in the nineties or whatever. But of course, they won’t accept that RA label.

So, what, what, what can we call them? I don’t know. You, you can think of some new term for this as we go through this other than just post races. Chime

Simone Collins (2): in the comments.

Malcolm Collins: But wizards of the Coast, a company that publishes the official materials of the Roleplaying game, DUNS and Dragons, is planning to eliminate the half elf, half ORC races in forthcoming editions.

They say the half elf construct is inherently racist according to game designers. By the way, I’m reading for reason here. This is them talking here. Frankly, we are not comfortable and haven’t been for years with any of the options that start with half said Jeremy Crawford, a DD rules, designers a [00:07:00] at a virtual event last weekend to play d and d.

It’s necessary to design characters with specific race. Human elf, dwarf, gnome, et cetera, and specific class ranger, barbarian, cleric, et cetera. The official materials offer guidance for doing so. The races and classes have specific characteristics. Elves have long natural lifespans. Orcs can see in the dark and so on.

But players can also make a character with mixed racial traits. Half elves are characters. Ways that one human parent and one elf parent half orcs are characters. Ways that one human. Parent and one orc parent. Well, it’s possible to design other mixed race characters. Again, official materials make it clear that everyone can do whatever they want.

These two combinations are specifically listed ones and they have their own traits. Well, not anymore. According to several reports from DD players who witness the event, the official materials are dropping. These classes due to concerns of inherent racism. Players who want a mixed character will be advised to choose one race from which to draw their traits.

Is [00:08:00] this

Simone Collins (2): the same for like Rangers and barbarians?

Malcolm Collins: No. A Ranger is a class, not a race.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, sorry, I don’t bad at this.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Speaker 5: I don’t know nothing about this. Dean, do you? So

Malcolm Collins: the game will prompt you to either have elf or human to round out your game related qualities.

Simone Collins: Okay. And

Malcolm Collins: this is what I find so interesting because I really wanna dive into this because I think it’s fascinating. So to go into the mechanics here for gameplay, select one species as, quote unquote, primary heritage primary.

You made all the traits and features of that subra lineage options

Simone Collins (2): this reminds me so much of how, like, when, when people have mixed race heritage, it’s super common in modern culture for like, let’s say you have like Obama, right? White mom, black dad. He’s still like the first black president.

The first,

Malcolm Collins: well, so I think that’s part of where this comes from. So let’s, let’s talk about this Uhhuh. There’s the hilarious [00:09:00] South Park ad. That’s an ad for 23 and me to find out what percent victim you are.

But basically what this is codifying.

Speaker 2: , I thought I was just a standard white guy, but DNA and me showed that I’m actually 4.2% Cherokee Indian.

Speaker 3: Turns out I’m not totally white. I’m also part Northern Asian and even some Kurdish, I’m a victim of oppression.

Speaker 4: People made fun of me for being French DNA and me showed I was 8% Navajo. Nobody’s making fun of me now, or my people who are victims. I’m 13% victims.

Speaker: I’m 21% victim.

Malcolm Collins: Into d and d is you get to choose any one part of your heritage, no matter how small it is.

Simone Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And a hundred percent identify as that portion of your heritage. That’s totally how

Simone Collins (2): people do though, unless they choose to be, you know, you know

Malcolm Collins: Pocahontas, Elizabeth Warren.

No, no, no. It’s how Wokes do, it’s not how I think productive individuals do. Yeah, for sure. [00:10:00] Sure. I don’t think it’s how a healthy society works. Yeah. But what’s also really fascinating is within a d and D world, you know, nobody argues that orcs and elves and humans and dwarves do not have different biological features.

Like nobody’s gonna argue that an elf has the strengths. Of an orc. Yeah. Right. Nobody’s, nobody’s I think historically, a few people would argue that, you know, a, a human has the innate skill for metalworking that a dwarf has. Yeah. And so this is accepted within any sort of fantasy world.

Right. And so they’re not denying when they draw the offspring of say, you know, a human and an orc. That that offspring is not going to by any sane measure of the imagination beat 80 human in an arm wrestle, for example.

Speaker 5: Yeah. [00:11:00]

Malcolm Collins: But they say that we have to pretend that that’s not the case. That we have to pretend that they are either just as strong as an ORC or just as weak as a human.

Simone Collins (2): And, and so that’s how your stats come out. If you choose to identify if you’re half or half human and you choose to identify as human, does that mean like your stats in the game are, are

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins (2): Your stats are what you identify as? I mean, I don’t know, like, I feel like when people choose their identities, it ki it does affect their outcome, even if it’s like.

You know, not their chosen identity, but

Malcolm Collins: it’s so it’s not just around ethnicity here. Okay. But o obviously this has a lot of parallels to the trans community and stuff like that. Like this idea that you can look at, you know, strong man from South Park and you can be like, obviously that sports competition isn’t fair.

Like I can see Leah Thomas, right. That was the one who did the competition. Um mm-hmm.

Simone Collins (2): The swimmer. Yeah. Leah Thomas. I

Malcolm Collins: can see. She has dramatically more muscle mass. [00:12:00] Yeah. But than I have ever seen on a biological woman

Simone Collins (2): treating the world the way it’s supposed to be, which is once you choose to identify as see in the correct world, Leah Thomas would’ve begun to suck at swimming when she transitioned.

The problem is that reality is just unjust.

Malcolm Collins: I actually love, like, I’m imagining like in d and d you know, that that half orc like joins the, the weightlifting competition and it’s like, but I identify with my human parents. Like, yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Whatcha talking about? You know? Yeah. Just being like this whole subplot of how like, half orcs and half elves are like exploiting human competition realms.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And they’re like everything. It’s not on my stat blocks. Look at my stats. No, I’m actually imagining here, you know this, there’s like is a K where you’re taken to like a video game world. Yeah. Except like woke racists are enforcing this way of doing the rules on everyone and like obviously it’s not working and you have like orcs identifying as elves to like go into like elf weightlifting competitions.

Yes. [00:13:00] Elves identifying as it works to go into their like gymnastics competition. But you just

Simone Collins (2): know that like in these fantasy worlds and like the racism or I don’t know, a speciesism whatever, would be like so much stronger than it already is. No, but

Malcolm Collins: that’s what’s so, okay, so this is why I found this. So telling before we go into all these instances is you and I are here and we look at something like the trans people in sports or something like that, right?

Yeah. And we’re like. I have eyes, I is it that, that these people don’t have eyes? Is it that these people like cannot make a basic biological judgment here, right? To me.

Speaker 8: I have a lot of incredible trans friends who are athletes, and so we’re all inspired this woman’s competing Uhhuh. She’s not exactly your average trans athlete.

Well, what is an average trans athlete?

Honestly, I find that kind of bigoted, David.

Speaker 7: Okay.

Speaker 9: Now that I can compete as

Speaker 7: female, I’m ready to smash the other girls.

Speaker 9: I’m gonna rule up the other [00:14:00] women here and I’m gonna smoke ‘em. I am the strongest woman

Speaker 7: this state has ever seen.

Malcolm Collins: But, but so I look at that and I’m like, surely maybe it’s just that we’re not. Dimorphic enough, right? But what you see within the d and d example, which is really, really fascinating and helps elucidate the way they actually see ethnic groups.

You see that no, even if it was so patently obvious that no one could conceivably deny it. IE the half orc or something like that. Right. They would still choose to deny it. Keep in mind, this Wizard of the Coast team, it got through like an entire diversity like review board, right? Like no, of course

Simone Collins (2): it did.

But wait, hold on. Is this the logistical

Malcolm Collins: thing? Of course it did, but to me, outside of the woke mob and, and, and, and circles and everything like that, mm-hmm. [00:15:00] I hear about this and I’m thinking. That’s obviously racist, right? To ban, but like,

Simone Collins: no, it’s just how it’s supposed to be. It’s just how it’s supposed to be.

So they’re like, it’s, it’s correct. Right.

Malcolm Collins: But it shows the way that they want to apply this within our own reality as well, and that it’s well enough conceived that, that this idea of. Even though they look like a man, even though they have the muscle of a man, no, they’re not a man.

Simone Collins (2): They’re not a man. And they have the stats of woman because they’re not a man.

So I think that

Malcolm Collins: matters in terms of that way of relating to race. Okay. Right. Okay. Like race is well, while sort of being transracial is still something like Azar or whatever, who like pretended to be black and had like no black heritage like this is something that’s still really looked down upon the idea of pretending or taking ownership of an ethnic group.

Is I think, way more flexible in progressive circles than we pretend it is on the right or that they pretend it is A [00:16:00] quick

Simone Collins (2): logistical question for. People like me who are outside that haven’t ever played d and d, could this have just been a logistical constraint? Like it’s just too hard for dungeon Masters to, or like for players in general just set up a, a statute that gets mixed?

Malcolm Collins: No, they, they said why, look, I, I literally read their quotes about this, Simone. I know, but

Simone Collins (2): maybe they did that for like. Social points within their leftist circles because of this has been dominated by leftist factions, but in the end it was just a logistic, we’re fun to

Malcolm Collins: have more diversity for like min maxing stats and everything.

Simone Collins (2): Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And so this, this was very explicitly done for, for diversity reasons to be on the woke side of history. ‘

Simone Collins (2): cause before you would, you could mix them right.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, it was norm. Oh, so this,

Simone Collins (2): like, it wasn’t a problem that was being fixed because at first I was like, well, maybe it was for five

Malcolm Collins: additions. It wasn’t a problem.

No.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. Yeah, it was like, I don’t know, maybe you have to like add, you know, add numbers and then average them out and it, it just takes too much time. And that dive No, no.

Malcolm Collins: The, the set stats for half Ls, half or half, they’re all given like, oh, they were just, oh

Simone Collins (2): God. Okay. So you just look it up in the book.

This is

Malcolm Collins: even something additional they [00:17:00] can sell because there’s more pages in their book. Dude, you’re right.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. Okay. Sorry. That just, that was necessary. I didn’t know that. I Now thank you for telling me.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So wait, what was the point I was making when you interrupted me? , I remember the point. It was very important, so I’m glad I didn’t forget it. The second one is, is, is this applies even to ethnic group with only one exception among Wokes. So, you’re people are like, oh, you can’t just say that you’re black was in woke circles.

Right. And I’d be like, actually. You can, as long as you can pass as having any meaningful black heritage. So if an individual, for example, was in woke circles, was let’s say one eighth, black or something like that and they said, I’m black. And you said if you are anything other than like, obviously blacker than them.

No, you’re not black. You don’t look back. You don’t pass as black. This would be seen as an incredibly offensive thing to say within their circles. And I’ve noticed as well, within woke circles that this becomes a particularly easy way to get the bipoc [00:18:00] background by claiming Native American heritage. Because you may not look Native American, you know, and so you can claim it, or by claiming, latinx heritage because nobody knows, you know, Latinx white people are Latinx, right? Like you’re from Argentina or whatever, right. You know? Yeah. You could be like

Simone Collins (2): literally 100% Italian. And MIT Romney

Malcolm Collins: is Latinx, right? Like he is, his parents were Mexicans, weren’t they? Google, I’m sure they were. You know, so he’s more Latinx than most Wies, right?

And if he said, I’m Latinx and you tried to challenge him on this and you are to the right of him you get immediately dog piled. So, I I, I think that this is really important to note that when they say that we haven’t entered this sort of, I can identify as whatever race I want, we actually are already well in the.

I can identify as whatever race I want with the only caveat that it gets tricky when you’re identifying as black. And you probably want some small amount of [00:19:00] heritage from that group, but it’s considered very offensive to question individuals because they don’t unquote path, which was the point historically, the reason why.

You would sometimes identify somebody. As say black, even though they would have, you know, a half white or a white parent, right, is you’d say, well, they looked black enough that they experienced. All the oppression that goes, oh yeah, people saw them

Simone Collins (2): as black and therefore treated them. So this is where this logic

Malcolm Collins: started.

Okay? But it’s no longer there anymore. You can very clearly pass as a white European and claim Latinx heritage or claim black heritage. It’s, is what I’ve seen. So we gotta talk about, you know, that, right? Like identities are choice now. But the second thing is how they relate. To ethnic heritage, which I think is really important.

Okay. Because clearly here, the reason they’re uncomfortable with this is in their heads. Which by the way was not the case for me in my head. I never understood orcs to be black people. But in their [00:20:00] head if they’re like, well, it’s offensive that, you know, half orcs exist. Then they’re saying that these are like ethnic groups and not like species.

Right. And as such. They’re saying that they always were kind of uncomfortable one with ethnic group mixing but two, with the idea that you could inherit some traits from one ethnic group and some traits from another ethnic group.

Simone Collins (2): Now Okay. I’m sorry. I just need for, again, for me and all the other non d and d people, I know that Orx from the Lord of the Rings universe are sort of, I mean, you could say genetically modified or, or, or modified through treatments elves, so.

Ally’s actually. Okay. So they’re indeed either just this separate evolved. You have mentioned this a

Malcolm Collins: number of times that you think is a universal true thing about Orx and it is literally only token. I mean

Simone Collins (2): like the Lord of the Rings universe is pretty big.

Malcolm Collins: Literally only the Lord of the Rings universe works.

Are, are, are like that. That is interesting. That is never okay. I maybe [00:21:00] people will school me and there’ll be like one other mainstream fantasy world, but it is not a common factor of ORs.

Simone Collins (2): Well, thank you. I needed to know that. I just, because I wasn’t sure, I was like, it’s, it’s weird to. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: By far the most common trope of orts, even in the late eighties was like noble savages.

Like they were very tribal. They were very savage. But they you know, upheld honor and everything like that. Like the

Simone Collins (2): res of the fantasy world?

Malcolm Collins: No, I said noble savages. Oh, noble,

Simone Collins (2): sa oh, oh, oh. So like structured and not crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, more. They’re often structured like, sort of like Native American tribes and stuff like that when they’re, when they’re doing them.

Oh, okay. So like

Simone Collins (2): closer to the earth, less, less in their high towers and

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. I gotcha. All right. Gotcha. Gotcha. Thanks.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and so, this, this has been a thing for a while, but anyway, the point here being is sorry. You, you go on big tangents. Just

Simone Collins (2): I need to, no, I need, I don’t,

Malcolm Collins: how do you watch so little [00:22:00] fantasy?

We just,

Simone Collins (2): because I do the work, I do the, I pay the bills. I

Malcolm Collins: thank you for that, Simone. Spreadsheets. I really appreciate it.

Simone Collins (2): Clean.

Malcolm Collins: But the, the point here being is that they think that ethnicity is something that you. Choose and you choose one. And you’re not really supposed to choose two. And this is true with in woke circles for mixed race individuals.

Hmm. I, I, I, I even see, and you can sound off in the comments here, some shaming when people attempt to combine traditions from both of their parents. Well, it is the

Simone Collins (2): urban monoculture to be fair.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s adopt one identity. So I’m not confused about your position in our social hierarchy. And that identity is sort of like your, your personal branding or whatever, and unrelated to your biological reality.

Which is really interesting. And I think that that is part of what the modern I guess we’ll call it, woke racism [00:23:00] is instead of the post racism. ‘cause right now it’s dealing with like the, the reason we use the term post racism is because. Usually for people to sort of enter a post racist mindset and be like, it’s okay that we’re different.

You have to. Go through learning about those differences, accepting those differences, and then understanding that they’re just not that important with the current genetic technology that, that we have, you know, coming down the pipeline.

Malcolm Collins (2): Makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: And, and that. That this is okay, that it is.

Diversity wouldn’t have value if we weren’t actually different, right? If everyone was interchangeable with everyone else, there would be no reason to say that diversity is a thing of value, be that cultural or genetic diversity. And so, and I think that that is, you know, as you said about this, you’re like, it’s sort of like dune, you know, you, you, the pain box, right?

You must face your racism and let it pass through you. Mm-hmm. That is, is, is where. You go to enter a truly non-racist world, [00:24:00] it is through all of the threats that come with traditional racism. Because if you refuse to engage with those threats, you end up in this alternate crazy world where every group difference is because somebody’s cheating.

Mm-hmm. And therefore, any group that is outcompeting your group must be destroyed. And this always leads to things like antisemitism and stuff like that.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And no, I’m not saying that an idea is bad because it leads to antisemitism. An idea may lead to antisemitism and be perfectly valid.

I’m just arguing to the wokes who sometimes care about antisemitism that, that this mindset is always going to take you there. Or to you know, are reformed Jew viewers who think that staying on the left side is still a good idea. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. If you promote this ideology, it ends with your group being targeted.

But it leads with any group that’s that’s out competing. Yeah. But I, I wanna now get to do you have any thoughts on this before we go further, Simone? On

Simone Collins (2): no dive deeper. This just, my mind was already blown at the very beginning of [00:25:00] this when I realized that, you know, racism was totally different from what I thought it was as a kid.

Malcolm Collins: So this is representative Jasmine Crocker, a democrat in Texas,

Who was talking in, in 2025 about Brian Donalds a a black man. And she’s a member of the squad so, you know, very prominent, right? And she said that his marriage to a white woman whitewashes him, making him less authentically black.

Simone Collins (2): So he feels like a race traitor.

Malcolm Collins: No, she says he’s not really black because he married a white woman. He doesn’t get to claim to be black. See, this is the thing about the left.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, whoa.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. This is an elected politician this year, said this. Not like, oh, ‘cause he’s married

Simone Collins (2): outside his, what? That is, how can she,

Malcolm Collins: so what’s interesting is, remember how I said that?

Like they can identify as whatever they want. Like if Elizabeth Warren wants to identify as Native American, that’s not offensive from a Democrats [00:26:00] perspective. Right? But if you. Are not a Democrat, and if you are not within the urban monoculture, if you challenge it, then people within the urban monoculture get to identify what you are.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And that’s what we’re seeing here, right?

Speaker 5: No, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: In shared by, at Rob, the builder a self-described liberal he warned of and, and I’ve seen these in the wild as well. Warning of ization. When he was talking about how white women in woke circles scrutinize interracial relationships as exploitative he dated a dark skinned Indian woman last summer.

But she was repeatedly warned by white liberal acquaintances who didn’t know him, that his interest was likely a racial fetish or tokenization to signal virtue. What a quote from his on. He goes on three separate occasions from three different people. She was warned that my attraction to her was likely either a fetish and or tokenization, whatever that means.

Simone Collins (2): That is [00:27:00] so weird is this, because there are now prominent conservatives who are in mixed race marriages, and now it’s a

Malcolm Collins: lot of prominent conservatives are in mixed race marriages. Yeah. But keep in mind that this never ma, it doesn’t matter when as the classic, you know, incredibly anti-white you know, black progressive woman marries Jewish guy.

Trope. Yeah. And, and we point out, if you look at the conservatives, the one see that they’re always saying a racist, like, you know, JD Vance will be like married to you know, a

Malcolm Collins (2): v

Malcolm Collins: Indian woman, right? Indian kids, right? You see, you see this all the time, right? Like the, they clearly don’t mean whatever we used to mean by racist when they’re calling him a racist, right?

They’re talking about some new distinction. And so I’m trying to categorize these two new systems of thought post racism and woke racism. As the, as the diametrically opposed, instead of both schools pointing out ways in which each one of them is more like what we historically called racism in the nineties.

And I will agree that some parts of post racism are closer to what we call racism in the [00:28:00] nineties than woke racism. But overall woke racism is way closer. I’d say it’s like 80% towards woke racism in terms of whatever we call racism in the nineties, because

Simone Collins (2): my memory of, of nineties racism. Was totally okay with accepting genetic differences.

In fact, there was a celebration of the variety of humans and it was like, we’re different and isn’t that cool? And isn’t it cool that this person isn’t like you and has different culture and heritage? And our strength is in that variety that, wait, so where?

Malcolm Collins: So let’s keep going here. Okay.

Simone Collins (2): Okay.

Malcolm Collins: In a paper titled The Marriage Fundamentalist Guide to the End of the World, Occidental College, sociology Professor Lisa Wade, A prominent voice in gender and racial studies, often cited in progressive academia.

Okay? Argued that marriage itself reinforces quote white hetero patriarchal supremacy in quote,

Simone Collins (2): oh, that’s why she calls it a marriage fundamentalist.

Malcolm Collins: Wow. [00:29:00] Yeah. Representatives Brian Donalds highlighted it in his response, try, try tying it to criticism of his own interracial marriage. As left-leaning commentators used it to question the legitimacy of his mixed race unions under systemic racism.

And then quote here, marriage fundamentalism like structural racism, is a key in structuring element of white hetero patriarchal supremacy In quote,

Speaker 5: hetero patriarchal supremacy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. In a, in a widely discussed essay, journalist Paul kicks in an interracial marriage was a black woman, described a shift in liberal attitudes post 2020.

So I note here, this has also been recent, which is pretty interesting. Mm-hmm. At a neighborhood gathering, a white progressive mother questioned his fitness to raise their biracial children, reflecting water woke weariness about white partners in mixed race families, and it heightened the focus on racial supremacy of color.

He said quote, I don’t [00:30:00] know how you can raise black children right now in quote, and this was in the essay the free press essay. Liberals once embraced interracial marriages like mine. What changed? And we might do a separate episode or we just go over this essay. ‘cause I think that sounds pretty interesting.

But I think that this is true. Like if you believe in racial supremacy, right? Mm-hmm. Like it black people are genuinely superior or more fragile or more like, like somehow needing of a different class of parents. Like you would look at the white person raising them and be like, how can you be good enough to be the parent to these black?

Yeah. But

Simone Collins (2): if, if it’s a mixed race. That, that means that that person’s genetics is also when their kid and, and they’re the best person the way they

Malcolm Collins: see it. And that’s what’s really fascinating, right? That’s, that’s where the DT thing comes in. These children are only black in these people’s minds. And not only that, but these children would have the right to are and are expected to.

The reason why they’re like the father should be ashamed and not the mother is because they expect the kids to choose their [00:31:00] black identity and not their white identity. This is

Simone Collins (2): shockingly regressive. I cannot believe it. It’s not

Malcolm Collins: good. Like we are fighting against true evil here. Like I, I want to be clear, right?

These are not like, there’s some good to it and there’s some bad to it, but I think that there is good in trying to delineate what they believe and better understand what they believe about what race really is and how your race is really determined,

Simone Collins: I suppose.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. At Yoo’s three, a verified ex-US in queer and leftist communities critiqued the framing of interracial relationships, often white plus non-white as progressive symbols.

They argued these dynamics historically benefited white men and aren’t truly emancipatory. So here’s the quote. One. Interracial relationships are not inherently progressive. Two miscegenation laws were historically introduced by white men. Ending them has was done [00:32:00] primarily to benefit white men.

Three interracial is almost synonymous, was white plus other, no, it’s not. But this is what they think. This is not something that he gets pushed back on, you know, this is Yeah. Normal in these. Yeah. It’s just stated without

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Communities and stuff like that. Right. And I think that this is why we also need something other than scientific racism, which I’m quite against.

Mm-hmm. Quite against scientific racism is to say you know. Racial groups are genetically quite distinct from each other, and this significantly matters to the way we structure society. And that it is important to understand often, you know, as, as a sidebar to this, which groups are the good ones and which ones are the bad ones.

And, and you know, some scientific races will be like, I don’t do that third thing, and it’s. You know, a lot of people in the community do, right. Like you, you, you know they do. Right? And I think that that’s not a healthy way, and that’s why I, I, I opt to this post racist category.

Malcolm Collins (2): Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Where you have gone through that [00:33:00] understanding and you’ve come out at a more logical endpoint than a racial obsession either in the form of scientific racism or in the form of leftism modern woke racism.

So, if, what was I gonna find some other fun ones here. Oh, yes. Let’s do Robin DeAngelo. What, what did, what did, does she have to say?

Simone Collins: She’s still doing stuff kind made for a long time.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So she said, and then I’m a big believer in affinity space and affinity work, and I think people of color need to get away from white people and have some community with each other.

Simone Collins (2): Bring back segregation.

Malcolm Collins: Bring back segregation. Yes. So ya zong and anti-racist narratives in interracial marriages. This was August, 2022 and this is discussed a lot that year. So in Psychology Today, a mainstream progressive leaning psychology outlet this PhD and academic and and an [00:34:00] interracial couple herself highlights how post 2020 anti-racist activism frames white partners as inherent oppressors.

This narrative drawn from figures like Abram Key. Ex Kennedy and Robin DeAngelo questions the authenticity of mixed race unions. And so she said, why would oppressed persons want to marry their oppressors? And if these activists are right, wouldn’t we have to conclude that no authentic relationship could exist between white and non-white people?

Simone Collins (2): Maybe because these aren’t oppressed people marrying their oppressors because slavery was abolished a while ago, maybe.

Malcolm Collins: I know, and then people would be like, well, it hasn’t been enough time for them to catch up. And I’m like, well then why do, why do Japanese Americans out earn white Americans? Like Yeah, despite internment were much more recently.

And you could be like, well that wasn’t as long. And I’m like, well, it’s still re zero them. You know, so, so, and then people can be like, well, well see. The thing is, is you’re not taking into account the cultural effects of X many years of slavery. And he goes, ah, right there, the cultural [00:35:00] effects. So that means that it can be addressed, intitally not, it doesn’t need to be enforced from the outside.

If anything, watch the other episode. We’re gonna have a releasing around this. If you do handouts, whether it’s DEI or whether it is, in terms of cash handouts, you usually hurt the community in question. And there was a great study on this that showed that if you’re looking at, and note here, I’m not saying for genetic reasons, it’s just everybody knows, well, not everybody knows, but like if, if you’re aware of like, the research into discrimination and everything like that black students in America.

Score lower than white students and earn less than than white individuals. This is also true for Latin American Americans. And if, if you’re like, okay, where are these differences? The smallest and where are they? The biggest,

Malcolm Collins (2): the

Malcolm Collins: biggest in democratic areas, and they’re the smallest in Republican areas.

So that means that when you have intergenerational Republican leadership you, you get. Less distance between ethnic groups. Meaning, meaning more equality. But that’s because you’re getting less DEI and [00:36:00] less handouts, which increase these things. I, I see our DEI videos on this. Anyway, so, to continue here, sociologists Isha Soland Cole Research published by Rice University, a progressive academic institution argues that mixed race marriages don’t inherently challenge racism and can even reinforce it through colorblind assumptions. Progressive media outlets like the Garland Guardian amplified this in 2023 to 2024 when they were getting called mad at us.

In caution, viewing interracial unions as a solution to systemic issues, potentially stigmatizing them is performative. Yeah, I performatively got married and had kids with somebody for my entire life. I mean, I’m not gonna argue it never happens, but like, I don’t think that, like JD Vance Oh, like the

Simone Collins (2): political lesbians of.

Race warriors.

Malcolm Collins: So as, as, as a quote here, interracial couples often serve as proof that we are indeed making positive liberal advancements, particularly when they have children. But this presumption can undermine the [00:37:00] racism of the extended family members who encounter the couple.

Simone Collins (2): So based on what are they even asserting that, I mean, first when you actually look at the data mixed race marriages are at a higher rate in the United States, at least today than they ever have been historically.

They’re becoming increasingly common. And, and oh, the other really important piece of data here too, which I think is just so important and so telling is that. Say what you will about gold diggers. It’s actually very unusual for people to marry outside their educational wealth or whatever status class.

So the fact that there are more mixed race marriages to me says that there is less of a functionally perceived and felt barrier between people of different racial backgrounds that they are seeing themselves as in the same class because we are really entering a post race world. And I just that they’re trying to go back.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I [00:38:00] think Simone, it’s important to remember that in a modern context white supremacy has a big. Over diversity problem is just too diverse a movement, the white supremacist movement.

Malcolm Collins (2): No,

Malcolm Collins: we need to, we need to, there’s too many black and Indians in it and it, it needs a, a cleaning because I have seen, you know, leftists complain about this a lot recently is, is, is the problem with all the diversity in the white supremacist movement.

But it’s, it’s a joke because the people who, the left frame is white supremacists who are not white supremacists, they’re just not woke racist. The, they. And, and again, the reason I make up this post racist label is it is a very different view about race than the race realists have.

And it’s a very different root view about race than being against racism when it is in the nineties, because I think in the nineties there was still this sort of underlying fear of being like, it’s okay to admit that people are different from each other.

And yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Well, and that, that, that our [00:39:00] differences are, are strengths. They’re good things.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. That diversity would have no value. If no human group was actually different from any other human group, we would be interchangeable. Mm-hmm. There wouldn’t be a reason to think of groups differently. Mm-hmm.

And there’d be no reason to say, oh, we need X many of X type of person in this office for maximum. It’s like, well, apparently all men and women are completely interchangeable. You know,

Simone Collins (2): except they aren’t. And stay in your lane and don’t ever pretend to.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it’s about accepting reality and what they’re doing, which is really interesting and I think we see from the d and d is that race has become an optional identity.

In the same way that they’ve kind of done this with sexuality, where really anyone on the left can identify. With, well, pretty much any sexuality they want. Yeah. They get to, you can be like, well, they can’t identify as gay. And it’s like, well, they can identify as a woman and now they’re gay, you know?

Simone Collins (2): Oh, that’s true. Yeah. You can, yeah. There you go. [00:40:00]

Malcolm Collins: So sexuality doesn’t matter anymore. You know, arousal patterns don’t matter anymore. What you’re actually born doesn’t matter anymore. It’s all a choice. And what’s what’s interesting is that this whole mindset around this all being a choice. Is downstream of an imperialist and European descendant culture.

Which is one of the things I always point out about. And by that what I mean is when you point out, they’re like, well, I love Muslims. And I go, well, you know, Muslims in Pakistan have a lot of views that you’re gonna disagree with. And they’re like, well, one day they’ll agree with all my views because we will eradicate what makes their culture distinct.

Yeah. You know, so I, I think that, that’s always really hilarious to me. But anyway. Any, any thoughts, Simone, before we close out here?

Simone Collins (2): I’m just horrified. I, I just, I, I can’t,

Malcolm Collins: but I mean, it is so mainstream that this is d and d now. This is Wizard of the Coast. This is the world we live in now.

Simone Collins (2): It doesn’t, it, it only makes the game more boring.

You’ve just taken out No, we got

Malcolm Collins: [00:41:00] fired over this. No big uprising happened. Just.

Simone Collins (2): But I mean, you had more choices in the past that

Malcolm Collins: Yes, you did have more choices. Society was more interesting. I mean, it’s also like outside of DN it’s, it’s not just stupid, it’s, it’s it’s. It’s unproductive, it, it’s stupid, unproductive.

And it is sort of anti-real. And it’s what shocks me even

Simone Collins (2): more though, is like,

Malcolm Collins: bro, you know, I’ve said, I suspect there to be, as people begin to realize that the mainstream right now is like, I might be naming post racism or other people might have named it already. But, or, or posts scientific racism, I think is a, a sort of good full term for it.

Hmm.

But. It is the normative position within the online, right, right now. It is the normative position among youth these days. If, if, if you talk to them who are not woke, brainwashed it is not like, our [00:42:00] position that we’re trying to convince you of. I’m, I’m sure the vast majority of our listeners, when I hear this term, they’re like, oh yeah, that describes my view of this concept.

And it’s a view that’s just sort of like, believe the evidence. But don’t be a spazz about it and start like overly building your life around it

Speaker 5: basically. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: In the same way that you know, when people are like, well, you know, if X group was really better at X or Y, would that not change your daily decisions?

It’s like anybody who’s done like a 23 and me or like a, a genetics poll because that poll said that you were supposed to be good at something. Did you decide to like, change your life based on that? Were you like, oh, this poll says I’m gonna be really good at coding. I guess I’m gonna leave my job and become a coder even though I don’t like coding.

No. You still do what you wanna do. Like it matters so little. And this is where I always talk about when people are like, oh, well, you know, if you knew that you had X predilection, like that would [00:43:00] be really dangerous. People ask us about us with our kids, you know? ‘cause we get them genetically sequenced.

Malcolm Collins (2): Oh. And I’m like,

Malcolm Collins: you never freaked out about people’s horoscopes and, and these people believe this. Yeah. So how is this be different anyway? I know, I love that. Like far woke women, they will be like, there is no difference between these two, you know, very distinct cultural andic groups. And then I’m like, well, you know, I was born on X months.

And they’re like, oh, you’re a Scorpio. Well I need to look, I need to, ugh, that this relationship will never work. Like, it’s so weird actually. Like, I just wanna be like, it’s so weird that we are like discriminating on race. People will freak the F out. But if you discriminate based on horoscope, people are like, that’s totally normal.

Like, oh, I won’t date Aries, obviously. How is that better?

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, it’s not, [00:44:00] it’s not

Malcolm Collins: you ever before then. Yeah, but it’s,

Simone Collins (2): it is just, it’s, it’s acceptable because it’s not race. It’s the month in which you b were born, which you also have no control over.

Malcolm Collins: But fortunately we now can discriminate on race. It’s, it’s been said, they laid it out.

There’s just some rules for how you do it.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Rule number one, do not be white.

Malcolm Collins: No, you can be white as long as you’re a Democrat. Mm.

Simone Collins (2): Hey, Democrat. Still have to be ashamed of your white privilege.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. You, you just have to say, I’m ashamed of it and, but, but you are more white. P And then find something

Simone Collins (2): else to, you know, you, you’re like, you have pots and, you’re trans and or non-binary and or suffering from severe mental disorders, et cetera, et cetera. Spoony something. Anyway, I’m gonna go get the kids. I’m gonna make your bullock for dinner.

Malcolm Collins: Did you look at the video on how they’re cooked?

Simone Collins (2): I’m gonna look at it right before I cook them, but I’m gonna cook them before I start the cooking.

Saute the rice cake so they’re totally cooked, and then I’ll reintegrate them when I start similar everything in sauce. Okay. I think they can go

Malcolm Collins: in with [00:45:00] the chicken.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. When I put in the chicken. Yeah, I will do that.

Malcolm Collins: Or maybe like just after the chicken.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, that’s the plan. All right. I love you so much and thanks for you so much.

Horrifying

Speaker 5: me. Just when I think things can’t get any crazier, you blow my mind. So thanks for that. The world we’re in. So it goes,

Simone Collins: She’s so pretty.

Malcolm Collins: So for dinner tonight, are we doing the, the massive, because she’s about to give birth, right? And so she’ll be out for a while, and so she wants to make like all of my favorite dishes in mass so they can be frozen. So, and then easily

Simone Collins (2): preheat, like reheated. So I, I want Malcolm to still eat delicious homemade food, like mm-hmm.

The. What was it? Burmese chicken that I made. In this case I’m making Bullock Fire chicken, Korean fire chicken, but I just, I won’t have, I won’t have the bandwidth to prepare it, so we’re gonna make it ahead of time and it’s gonna be perfect. It’s gonna be great.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Except here’s actually [00:46:00] Malcolm’s trick to Bullock, which I think is very interesting.

He basically wants to eat it like pizza. Without any carbs. Because as much as he performatively is someone who has terrible health, he actually like, eats, like has an intermittent fasting, mostly keto diets. It’s so weird. This is

Malcolm Collins: pomegranate juice, by the way. Yeah, no, you’re like, you would, you would never admit it, but you actually like, but the bullock, it’s supposed to be eaten that way.

Bullock is not eaten with rice.

Simone Collins (2): It’s not even with rice. It has those Korean, like starchy rice chunks in it. But the way that Malcolm likes it is normally Bullock is like kind of layered, like in a, you know, a, a dish. Like it’s a little deep. You spoon into it or well not chopstick into it. But what Malcolm wants it to do is like, basically when I, when I prepare it, like just spread it out very thinly.

Like a, a pie dish or on a baking sheet, and then layer mozzarella cheese on top of it, like a pizza, which is, this is how it is traditionally, typically [00:47:00] does have a top layer of mozzarella cheese. And then he eats it like that, basically like a a, a crustless chicken and gochujang sauce like cheese pizza, which is really interesting.

And I get it, like it maximizes the sort of pizza flavor. Without the empty carbs. ‘cause honestly, yeah, I mean, I, I freaking love deep dish pizza Crest. I love the flakiness

Malcolm Collins: also like spicier and sweeter than a pizza.

Simone Collins (2): Oh yeah. And the carb, yeah. There is sugar in it.

Malcolm Collins: Honey. Honey. Or, or better because there’s less diversity in them.

Like with a pizza, you gotta get the crest just right and everything. It’s

Simone Collins (2): true. And who wants the crust even when they fill the crust with cheese in an attempt to redeem it, which I appreciate. It’s still just, it’s still crust. It’s still crust. But you know what, I actually appreciate that even Koreans kind of inherently and intuitively understand this because all of their pizzas are like, don’t worry, we’ve put hot dogs in the crust.

Don’t worry. We’ve put like their crusts are Korean, pizzas

Malcolm Collins: are disk. Disgusting. But

Simone Collins (2): in [00:48:00] theory and in the,

Malcolm Collins: in theory, they look amazing. Yeah. They

Simone Collins (2): look awesome. Like those little pointed like sausage infused cheese crusts. It, it, you’d think they’d be great. I never tried a pizza when we were in Seoul because you were like, they taste so terrible.

At least we had that

Malcolm Collins: well, no, you know how terrible they taste. Did you try one of those like hot dog or corn dog things in SEO that look really good? Yes. Okay. Pizza is like if you had that kind of bread and meat, but it was an entire pizza. You, you know, like when you taste it, you’re like, this is surprisingly disgusting.

Oh, like how it it, it, it is, it, it looks amazing. Yeah. Like you see it like their little glazed hot dog things. Yeah. They, they have

Simone Collins (2): like corn dogs. But the problem is, is they’re not corn dogs. They’re made what a, with what a, I could only guess is, is rice flour and it’s just utterly flavorless and textless.

Like just starchy, just, just stodgy. And then you have the hotdog inside, but it’s just like, this is, why would you wrap? I guess a hotdog button, [00:49:00] but it’s, it’s not, but it’s not soft. Feel like a hotdog button.

Malcolm Collins: Also fairly flavorless compared to like a normal hot dog.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, it just like the whole thing looks so freaking good and it was so disappointing.

And I’m obsessed with corn dogs. It’s like one of my top pregnancy cravings. And how do you butcher that? It’s

Malcolm Collins: gotta imagine being in Korea and not being able to get a good corn dog. Seriously, although they have great what, what do I wanna call ‘em? Like ettes, like buns and stuff. Oh,

Simone Collins (2): I know. Yeah. You just go to a, what, what’s that called?

I was gonna say, but No, it’s that, that French Parisian?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well it’s, it’s a French, they have it in the US too, and I think people think that they’re actually French, but they’re, they’re Korean.

Simone Collins (2): No, it’s Korean. What’s it? Damnit, what’s it called? A little life tower.

Malcolm Collins: It, the French connection or the French, I don’t know.

Something.

The place we were thinking of is Paris Baguette. And I’m always, you know, I, I look at these in American cities, like in Manhattan or San Francisco, and I’m like, I wonder how many people who go here realize that this is extremely Korean. All the food here is Korean, and this is a well-known Korean chain that just didn’t change its name [00:50:00] to something like Korean baguette when it moved to America.

Malcolm Collins: No, but it’s, oh, I love those.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. So at least they, yeah, no, they’re, they’re like, they can get it right. So I don’t know how they can get it so wrong with pizza and, and corn dogs. Well, or rice dog, whatever they call them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And if, if, if you’re not watching this, ‘cause I would’ve put some Korea pizzas on, on screen here.

Oh, thank you. You should Google Korean pizzas. ‘cause they’re, yeah, just no for

Simone Collins (2): real. Yeah. Yeah. They’re expensive too, though. They’re pricey.

Speaker 6: When, when die and I’m a dog, then I’m gonna take your whole world and get Oh, you mean you get all my stuff when I die? Yeah. Who told you about that? Nobody. I just figured out it. I just, you just figured it out yourself? Yeah. Wait, so then are you gonna try to kill me till you get my stuff?[00:51:00]

Okay. That makes sense. I’m, I’m done with that. You make me a grandpa and you get all my stuff. Okay. Deal, deal.

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