The Importance of Communication in Client Communication

Today's episode is "Old News"! Stephanie shares her ergonomic desk setup. Joël talks about the pyramids.

Another old thing is the Bike Shed episode two weeks ago about success and fulfillment. Stephanie and Joël realized off-mic that one area they didn't really talk about so much is impact, and that is something that is very fulfilling for both of them. Today, they talk about impact and leadership as individual contributors because leadership is typically associated with management. But they believe that as ICs, at any level, you can be displaying attributes of leadership and show up in that way on teams.

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• Success and Fulfillment episode
• Logitech MX Vertical
• Rose Wiegley's Lead From Where You Are

Transcript:

JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville.

STEPHANIE: And I'm Stephanie Minn. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way.

JOËL: So, Stephanie, what's old in your world?

STEPHANIE: I'm glad you asked that question because I don't think we get a chance to talk about things that are exactly the same as they've always been. And so today, I'd like to share my ergonomic desk setup, [laughs] which has been old for about a year or so. And back then, I was having some issues with some back pain and some wrist pain, and I made a few upgrades and since then have not had any issues.

And I feel like it's one of those things that I just forgot about because when it stops being a problem, you don't really notice it. And today, I am able to reflect on my old problem of bodily pain while working. And I'm happy to say that things have been much better for a while now.

JOËL: Oh, that's amazing. What's one thing you think had the most impact in your setup?

STEPHANIE: Oh, I picked up one of those vertical mice for my wrist. I was having some wrist pain, like I mentioned. And I actually solicited some input from other thoughtboters for the best mouse to replace the Apple Magic Mouse that I was using, which I really wanted it to work for me because I liked the way it looked, but nevertheless, that was causing me issues. So I ended up with the Logitech MX vertical, and that has really solved my wrist pain. It is very not cute. [laughs] It kind of looks like a weird big, gray snail. But you know what? You got to do what you got to do.

JOËL: That sounds like an art project waiting to happen.

STEPHANIE: Yeah. I would love to see; I don't know, a way to make these vertical mice look a little more cute. Maybe I will stick some googly eyes or something on it and then just be like, this is my pet snail [laughs] that works with me every day.

JOËL: Do you have a name?

STEPHANIE: Not yet. Maybe I'll save it for what's new next week.

[laughter]

JOËL: Homework assignment. Years ago, I was also having some wrist pain. And I think one of the most impactful things I did was remapping some keys on my keyboard. So I'm a pretty heavy Vim user. And I think just reaching with that pinky for the Escape key all the time was putting a lot of strain on my wrist. So I remapped Caps Lock to control. That's what I did. Yes, because it was reaching down with the pinky for the Control key and remapped escape to hitting J twice.

So now I can do those two very common things, Control for some kind of common chord and then Escape because you're always dropping in and out of modes, all from the Home row. And now, both my hands feel great, and I can be happy writing Vim.

STEPHANIE: That's really nice. I think when I had asked in Slack about mouse recommendations, someone had trolled me a little bit and said that if I just use my keyboard for everything, then I won't need to use [laughs] a mouse at all. [laughs] So there's also that option too for listeners out there.

JOËL: It's true. You go to tmux and Vim, and on a Mac, maybe something like Alfred and a few OS shortcuts, and you can get 90% of the way to keyboard only.

STEPHANIE: What about you, Joël? What's old in your world?

JOËL: So you know what, something that's really old? Pyramids.

STEPHANIE: Wow. [laughter] I should have known that this is where we were headed.

JOËL: Long-term listeners of the show will know I'm a huge history nerd. And we think of the pyramids as being old, but they are ridiculously old. A fun fact that I have not learned recently because this is something that is old in my world, but that I learned a while back is that if we look back to Cleopatra, the last Pharaoh, she is closer to us in time than she was to the building of the Great Pyramid.

STEPHANIE: No. What? Wow. Okay, yeah, that definitely just messed with my brain a little bit. And now, I have to rethink my understanding of time.

JOËL: I think the way the timeline sort of works in my mind is it tends to get compressed the further back you go. So it's like, yeah, I think of modern-ish times, like, yeah, there's like a lot of stuff, and I'm thinking in terms of decades until maybe like the 1900s. And now I start to think in terms of centuries. And they're kind of more or less equivalent, you know, the Victorian Age. It fills about the same amount of space in my mind as like the '60s. And then you get to the point where it's just like millennia.

STEPHANIE: Mm-hmm. When you think of Ancient Egypt, do you think Cleopatra and also pyramids, so you kind of conflate? At least I do. I conflate the two a little bit. But yeah, I guess a lot of time passed in between that. [laughs]

JOËL: The pyramids are also really cool because they were one of The Seven Wonders of the ancient world, which is sort of, I want to say, like a tourist circuit created by the ancient Greeks, sort of like monuments that they thought were particularly impressive. But they're also the only ones that are still standing; all of the others have been lost to time.

STEPHANIE: Wow, it's the real wonder then [laughs] for being able to stand the test of time.

JOËL: It's also the oldest of the seven and has managed to survive until today, so very impressive.

STEPHANIE: I love that. Just now, when you were talking about thinking about time periods kind of compressed, I definitely fall victim to thinking that the '70s or whatever was just 30 years ago, even though we are solidly in the 2020s and, in reality, it's obviously like 50. But yeah, I think that always freaks me out a little bit.

JOËL: Yes, it's no longer the year 2000.

STEPHANIE: Turns out. [laughs] So, in case our listeners didn't know. [laughs]

JOËL: I think when we were close-ish to the turn of the millennium, it just made mental math so easy because you're at that nice zero point. And then you get to the early 2010s, and it's close enough within a rounding error. And now we just can't pretend about that anymore.

STEPHANIE: No, we really can't.

JOËL: We need a new anchor point to do that mental math.

STEPHANIE: I love that we're talking about what's old in our world because I love a chance to just repeat something that I've said before that I still think is really cool, but I feel like that doesn't get invited as frequently. It's just like, oh, how are you doing? What's new? So yeah, highly recommend asking people what's old in their world?

JOËL: Yeah. And beyond that, not just like, what are some new things you're trying? But kind of like what you were talking about earlier, what's something that's stayed stable in your life, something that you've been doing for a while that works for you?

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I love it. So another thing that's old is our episode from a couple of weeks ago about success and fulfillment. And you and I realized off-mic that one area we didn't really talk about so much is impact, and that being something that is very fulfilling for both of us. And that kind of got me thinking about impact and leadership. And I especially am interested in this topic as individual contributors because I think that leadership is typically associated with management. But I really believe that as ICs, at any level, really, you can be displaying attributes of leadership and showing up in that way on teams.

JOËL: Definitely. I think you can have an impact at every level of the career ladder, not just an impact on a project but an impact on other people. I remember the first internship I did. I was maybe two weeks in, and I had a brand new intern join. It's day two, and I'm already pairing with him and being like, "Hey, I barely know anything about Rails. But if you want help with understanding instance variables, that's the one thing I know, and I can help you."

STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, everyone knows something that another person doesn't. And just having that mindset of injecting leadership into things that you do at work, no matter how big or how small, I think is really important.

JOËL: I think there's maybe a lie that we tell ourselves, which is that we need to wait to be an expert before we can help other people.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I've certainly fallen into that trap a little bit where I think it's held me back from sharing something because I assumed that the other person would know already or the thing I'm thinking is something I learned but not necessarily something that someone else would find interesting or new.

JOËL: Right. Or even somebody's looking for help, and you feel like maybe you're not qualified to help on that problem, even though you probably are.

STEPHANIE: One thing that I was really curious about is, can you remember a time when an IC on your team demonstrated leadership, and you were really impressed by it? Like, you thought, like, wow, that was really great leadership on their part, and I'm really glad that they did that.

JOËL: Yeah. So I think one way that I really appreciate seeing leadership demonstrated is in client communication. Typically, the teams we have at thoughtbot are structured on a particular project where there's like a team lead who is in charge of the project. It's usually a couple of consultants working together as peers. Depending on the situation, one or the other might take leadership where it's necessary.

But I've really appreciated situations where a colleague will just really knock it out of the park with some communication with the client or when they are maybe helping talk through a difficult situation. Or maybe even we realize that there's a risk coming down the pipeline for the project and raising it early and making sure that we de-risk that properly. Those are all things that I really appreciate seeing.

STEPHANIE: Yeah. I think the way folks engage in channels of communication can have a really big impact. A few things that come to mind for me that I think is really great leadership is when more experienced or senior folks ask questions in public spaces because that kind of cultivates a space where asking questions is okay, and even people who have whatever title or whatever years of experience they still have questions and can signal to other folks in the team that this is okay to do.

And the same thing goes for sharing mistakes as well. Also, just signaling that, like, yeah, we mess up, and that's totally normal and okay. And the consequences aren't so scary that people feel a lot of pressure not to make mistakes or share when they happen.

JOËL: Yeah. The concept you're describing is very similar to the idea of vulnerability.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, that sounds right.

JOËL: So kind of modeling that from more senior people helps create a safer environment for the more junior people.

STEPHANIE: I think another thing that I really love that others do for me, and something that I want to get better at doing for others, is speaking up when something is a little off because, again, with power dynamics, for people who are newer or less experienced, they might be noticing things, but they don't feel encouraged to speak up about it in a public space or even with their manager. But they might confide in another IC who is maybe a little more senior.

And one thing that I really liked that happened on my client project recently is a senior engineer said in Slack, "Hey, I noticed some sentiment from our daily sync meeting that we're cutting it close to our deadline." And he asked like, "Should we shift some priorities around? Or what is more important to make sure that we focus on in the next few weeks before the end of the quarter?" And I was just really glad he said that because I certainly had been feeling it. But I don't know if I necessarily kept a pulse that other people were also feeling it.

And so having someone keeping an eye on those things and being receptive to hearing that from folks and then being like, okay, I want to make sure that I bring it up to the manager because it's important. I thought that was really cool.

JOËL: Yeah. Now we're almost dialing into sort of emotional awareness of what other people on the team might be feeling and also the ability to think in terms of risks and being proactive about managing those.

STEPHANIE: I like your use of the word risks because that definitely feels like something that, in general, people are scared to bring up. But ultimately, it is the signal of someone who is experienced enough to know that it's important to make transparent and then adjust accordingly.

Even beyond noticing what folks are feeling, there are also more concrete things that can be noticed as well, like if team members are complaining about CI build time being really long and that being a repeating issue in getting their work done. Or any other development or tooling thing that is causing people issues, having someone notice how frequently that happens and then being like, hey, this is a problem. And here's what I think we should do about it.

JOËL: So not only the awareness but also the initiative to try to enact change.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely.

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STEPHANIE: So you and I are actually working on the same client but on different project teams. And you've been involved with making improvements to CI to reduce kind of the problem that I was just talking about where it takes a while for us to develop. And you are working on reducing the number of days between the master branch and when you are allowed to hit the merge button to make sure that feature branches had incorporated the latest changes for master.

And one thing that I really like that you did was you solicited folks' input for what that time range should be. So I think you were playing around with the idea of giving people three days to merge, or else they'd have to rebase.

JOËL: I thought it was being really comprehensive here with three days because, you know what? You solicited feedback, you got review, but maybe it's the end of the day, or maybe someone's in different time zones. So we definitely want to cover at least a 24-hour period. So three days gives you an extra day. It should be safe. Is there any common situation where you might want a PR to be open for more than three days, but you wouldn't have rebased the latest master changes?

STEPHANIE: Yeah. I can see how you thought about it from a few different angles too. Like, you're thinking about time zones and folks working in other regions. And I ended up responding to you, and I was like, oh, what about the weekend? [laughs]

JOËL: Oops.

STEPHANIE: Because three days seems a little short if two of those days are eaten up by Saturday and Sunday. But what I liked was that you said, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this. What do other people think?" Because you didn't claim to know what works best for everyone. And I think that's a really important skill to be honest, soliciting others for feedback, and knowing who to ask for and who to make sure you are not negatively affecting their work by making a change or making a decision.

JOËL: And in this case, it helped me realize that I had skipped over the most obvious edge case while thinking I'd covered all the really niche ones

STEPHANIE: We got there in the end, [laughs] and I think made the most informed decision.

JOËL: I guess that's just good product design in general. Talk to your users, get early feedback, put a prototype out where necessary. You don't always want your users to dictate what you will do, but it's good to get their feedback. And similarly, I think that applies when working with dev-facing things; you want feedback from developers. If I asked everybody at the company, I would have gotten a lot of different answers. And I might not have gotten one that satisfied everybody. But having some of that feedback helps me make a more informed decision.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, and to take it to the next step, I think there's also accountability for those decisions that you have to have. So if the decision that you made ends up being like a huge pain for some unforeseen reasons, I imagine you'd be on top of that as well and would want to figure out how to adjust if the experiment doesn't work as well as you would have liked.

JOËL: Right. I think we often talk about failing early. In fact, we have a recent episode about dealing with failure. And we mostly talked about it from a technical perspective, catching errors or making code more resilient to failure. But there is also a human component of it, which is if you catch errors or design problems, and I'm using design here as a product design, not in visual design, at a prototype phase or maybe a user interview phase, you've saved yourself a lot of maybe unnecessary work that you would have had if you went out to the product phase and shipped it to your entire customer base.

I guess, in a sense, it's worth thinking about other developers, the engineering team as customers sometimes. And a lot of the internal facing parts of your project are effectively a product geared towards them. They are the users. And so, throwing in a little bit of product development and design skills into building internally-facing software can have a huge impact.

So beyond just thinking of developers as a sort of internal customer base, occasionally, we work on projects where you are building internal tooling for other teams; maybe it's business development, maybe it's the marketing team, maybe it's some form of customer support. And that can often have a really large level of impact. Have you ever been on a project like that?

STEPHANIE: I have. One of my first jobs was for an e-commerce company. And I built tools for the customer support team for dealing with customers and getting their orders correct and fixed and whatnot. So I did work on an admin dashboard to make their jobs easier as well as the company also had its own internal software for dealing with warehouse logistics. And so, I also built a little bit of tooling for our logistics and fulfillment team.

And I really liked that work a lot because I could just go over and talk to the folks internally and be like, "Hey, what did you mean by this?" Or like, "What do you want here, and what would make your life easier?" And I felt a much more tangible impact than I did sometimes working on customer-facing features because I would deliver, and that goes out in the world. And I don't get to see how it's being used, and the feedback loop is much longer. So I really liked working on the internal tooling.

JOËL: In my experience, those teams are often really underserved when it comes to software. And so it's possible to make a huge impact on their quality of life with relatively little work. Sometimes you can just take an afternoon and eliminate a thing that's causing them to pull out their hair.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. And you get the satisfaction of knowing that you built something exactly as they wanted it. Whereas sometimes, with user or customer-facing features, we are guessing or experimenting a little bit. And yeah, I think having someone who then is very grateful for, I don't know, the button that you added that makes them have to click less buttons [laughs] when they do their work in an internal dashboard can feel really good.

JOËL: Having that direct access can be really nice where you get to just go over and talk to them or shadow them for a day, see how their work happens, get to hear their frustrations real-time. It's often a smaller group as well than you would have for our customers, which might be thousands of people, and so you sample a few for user testing. But for an internal team, you can get them all in a Zoom call. I don't necessarily recommend doing a giant Zoom call for this kind of thing, but it's a small enough group that you could.

STEPHANIE: I'd like to flip that around to you. Have you ever been on the receiving end of an improvement or someone else making your life a little easier, and if you could share what that was and how it made you feel?

JOËL: I think pretty early on in my career, one of my first projects for thoughtbot, we were building a small kind of greenfield app for a startup. And another member on the team took a couple of hours one afternoon to just write a few small abstractions for the test suite that; just made it so much nicer to write tests. And we're pretty scrappy. We've got a tight deadline, and we're trying to iterate very quickly. But that quality of life difference was significant to the point I still remember this ten years later. I think we were rotating this developer off, and this was kind of a farewell present, so...

STEPHANIE: That's really sweet.

JOËL: You know what? I love that idea of saying when you rotate off a project, do a little something extra for the people you're leaving behind.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I love that too. It's your kind of like last chance to make a small impact in that world.

JOËL: Especially because on your last couple days, you're probably not expected to pick up a ticket and get it halfway done. So as you're kind of ramping down, you might have a little bit of time to do some sort of refactoring task or something that needs to get done but hasn't been prioritized that will have a positive impact on the team.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, or even writing a script to automate something that you have kind of developed the muscle memory for, like, oh, I run these three commands in succession. And if you could just wrap it up in a little script and hand it off to someone else, it is a very sweet parting gift as well.

JOËL: Absolutely. So I'm curious, we opened the topic talking about impact, and you immediately connected that to leadership, and I want to explore that idea a little bit. Do you think impact has to be connected to leadership? Or are there ways to have impact, maybe outside of a leadership role?

STEPHANIE: I think they kind of go hand in hand, don't you? Because if you are wanting to make an impact, then in some ways, you are demonstrating that you care about other people. And at least for me, that is kind of my definition of leadership is enabling other folks to do better work. And you and I talk about attending and speaking at conferences pretty frequently on the podcast. And that is a very clear way that you are making an impact on the community.

But I also think that it is also a demonstration of leadership that you care enough about something that you want to share it with others and leave them with something that you've learned or something that you would like to see be done differently.

JOËL: And just to be clear here, the way you're talking about leadership is not a title; it's an action that you do. You're demonstrating leadership, even if you don't have any form of leadership title.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. I think that because software development is a collaborative job, in some ways, in most things we do, there is some form of leadership component, even if you're not managing people or you don't have a particular title.

JOËL: Like you said, it's about the things that you're doing to enable other people or to act as a sort of force multiplier on your team rather than how many people report to you in the org chart.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely.

JOËL: So if everybody aspires to enable each other and to be impactful, is it possible to have a team where every person on the team is a leader?

STEPHANIE: Whoa, [laughs] asking the big questions, Joël. I mean, logically, the answer seems to be no based on our traditional understandings of leadership and being a leader or follower. But I also kind of disagree because, as developers, we have to make choices all of the time, and that can be at the level of the code that we write, the commit messages we write, what we communicate in our daily sync.

And those are all opportunities, I think, to inject those skills that we're talking about. And so, yeah, everyone on the team is making decisions about their work. And inherently, to me, at least, the way you make those decisions and the impact of those decisions imply some form of leadership. What about you? What do you think about this?

JOËL: It's tough because you can get into bikeshedding the definition.

STEPHANIE: [laughs]

JOËL: Which, hey, it's all about that, right? You know, is leadership about authority or decision-making capacity? Is it about impact? Is it about maybe even responsibility if things go wrong? Who's responsible for the consequences? It could be about position in the org tree and relative depth on that tree, to use some data structure terminology. But I liked your emphasis on the idea of impact and enabling others. So now it's a thing that you do.

And so any member at any moment can be demonstrating leadership or acting in some leadership capacity, and they're contributing to the team in that way. And in the next moment, somebody else stands up and does the same thing. And it doesn't necessarily have to be in conflict. You can actually be in a beautiful harmony.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I really like the way you said that. I love a good beautiful harmony. [laughs] I think part of what has shaped my view on this is a keynote talk from RubyConf Mini back in November by Rose Wiegley. And her talk was called "Lead From Where You Are." And I think perhaps I've kind of internalized that a little bit to be like, oh yeah, everything we do, we can make a decision that can have a positive impact on others.

So that has helped me at least feel like I have a lot more agency in what I do as a developer, even if I don't have the concrete responsibility of being a mentor to a particular person or having a direct report. It injects meaning into my work, and that goes back to the fulfillment piece that we were talking in, knowing that, like, okay, like, here's how I can make an impact. And that's all just wrapped up together.

JOËL: So you kind of defined earlier the idea of leadership as work that has impact on others or that enables the work of others. And I think that there are some forms of that work which are kind of highly respected and will get you noticed and will be kind of called out as like, oh, you're performing leadership here. You stood up in that meeting, and you said the hard thing that needed to be said.

And there are other forms of supporting or enabling the team that almost get viewed as the opposite of leadership that don't get recognized and are almost like you're seen as less of a leader if you're spending a lot of your time doing that. That can be sometimes more administrative work. How does that sort of fit into this model where we're talking about leadership as something that has an impact on others?

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I have a lot of gripes [laughs] and thoughts, I suppose, about what work is visible and not visible and valued more or less. And I do think some more traditional signals of leadership, like talking the most in a meeting, like, that I don't necessarily think is my definition of leadership; in fact, the opposite. A true leader, in my opinion, is someone who makes space for others and makes sure that all voices are heard.

And yeah, I guess it just speaks to like what I was saying about soliciting other people for feedback as well. It's like someone to me who demonstrates leadership is not someone who thinks that they have all the right answers but actively seeks out more information to invalidate what they think is right and find the right solution for the folks on their team.

Similarly, in Rose's talk, she also mentions the idea of being a problem finder, so not just being tasked with solving a problem but looking around and being like, okay, like, what aren't we talking about and that we should be? And obviously, also contributing to making that better and not just being like, "Here's a bunch of problems, [laughs] and you have to deal with it," but that proactive work. Ideally, we are addressing those things before they become a huge problem. And I really liked that aspect of what leadership looks like as well.

JOËL: Yeah, I think something that I've noticed that I do more as I've built more experience over time is that when I started off earlier in my career, it was a lot of here's a problem that needs to be solved, go and solve it. And then over time, it's what are the problems that need to be solved? You have to sort of figure out those problems before you go and solve them. And then sometimes it's even one level above that; what questions should we be asking so that we can find the problem so that we can solve them?

And that will happen...it could be internally, so some of the things that I'm doing currently around improving the experience of a test suite is like, okay, we know sort of that it's slow in certain ways. How can we make that faster? We know that the experience is not great. But what are the actual problems that are happening here, the root causes? Or we're getting some complaints, but we don't really know what the underlying problem is. Let's go and search that out.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, that brings to mind an issue that I think I see a lot on client projects where perhaps stakeholders or an engineering manager is seeing that we are slow to merge our PRs, and they kind of start reaching for solutions like, okay, well, people should spend more time doing code reviews or whatever, thinking that that's what the issue is.

But in reality, maybe it's, I don't know, it can even be something as lower level as having to re-request reviews every single time you push a new commit because the GitHub settings are such that it requires additional approvals for every new change. And that is something that they would not know about unless someone spoke up and said, "Actually, this is what's causing us friction," and having to go back and do these manual tasks that maybe we should explore a different alternative to solve.

JOËL: Yeah, instead of just jumping in with a solution of we need to throw more dev hours at this problem, it can be useful to step back and ask, okay, well, why do we have this problem in the first place? Is it a process issue that we have? Is there some sort of social element that we need to address and organizational problems? And if it's not that, then what are the questions that we're missing? What questions should we be asking here to understand this problem?

STEPHANIE: Right. And even speaking up about it too and going against someone's assumption and saying, "Here's what I've been seeing, and this is what I think about it," that takes a lot of courage. And I do think it is something that is especially important for folks who are more experienced and have more responsibility or a higher-level title, but ideally is something that anyone could do. I would love to know for you, Joël, what is the most important way that you want to make an impact as a developer?

JOËL: I think the human element is the most important. I want to have an impact on my colleagues, on the dev teams with my clients. I want to ship good work. But I think the most valuable thing to invest in is other people.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I agree. I think for me; it's like making a good work experience for the people that I work with. And it's also a little bit selfish because then that means I am having a good work experience, and I'm in a good culture and environment. But that is definitely an area that I spend a lot of time thinking about and wanting to start conversations about.

JOËL: It's a win-win, right? You make it better for everybody else and better for you in the process.

STEPHANIE: Exactly.

JOËL: And it's okay for it to be somewhat selfishly motivated. Like, it doesn't have to always be every day super altruistic like; I just want to make the world a better place.

STEPHANIE: [laughs]

JOËL: Like, you know what? I want my corner of the world to be better, and in doing so, I'm going to make it better for everyone else.

STEPHANIE: What's that phrase? The tide rising all the ships. [laughs] That is extremely not correct, but I think you know what I'm trying to say.

JOËL: I think a rising tide lifts all boats.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, something like that. I love a good rising tide. [laughs] On that note, shall we wrap up?

JOËL: Let's wrap up. Or let's rise up.

STEPHANIE: [laughs]

STEPHANIE: Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm.

JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore.

STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show.

JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter.

STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email.

JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week.

ALL: Byeeeeeee!!!!!

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