The problem is that the public sector has become downscaled and also not allowed actually to even have missions and to think big. And then this focus on the debt, it's striking. Italy has had a low deficit for years, lower than Germany's. But they stopped doing anything beyond just setting guarantees and subsidies. It wasn't really co-investing in thinking about the future of education and research and health, etc. They had really low productivity. So you do have a cross Europe, this crazy situation where you have low deficit, but high debt to GDP.

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