I have a growing feeling which is supported by growing amount of evidence that what is in danger of being perpetrated is another massive ethnic cleansing. I mean, to put it very briefly, first of all, to think logically, Israel has done everything to prevent the so-called two state solution. It never actually subscribed to allowing a proper sovereign Palestinian state. People think that the Oslo Accords of 90, the Oslo Accords don't mention the Palestinian state. Israel never subscribed to it. And in fact, it has done everything possible to subvert it, to torpedo any possibility of Palestinians. So two state solution is off. One state with a possible Palestinian majority. At the moment, the numerical ratio between Hebrew Israelis and Palestinian Arabs in the whole area ruled by Israel is about equal. The demographic trend indicates Palestinian Arab majority under Israeli rule. Continuing the person's situation is unstable. It's not sustainable. They certainly don't want a single state with a Palestinian Arab majority or even a minority close to one half. So what is the alternative? There is a growing pressure of colonization goes on. They want to annex a bit after a bit. Eventually, they will have to resolve it. And I think they are planning to resolve it by massive ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank. In Gaza, they are actually strongly getting it to such an extent. They are poisoning the place. I mean, water is undrinkable. Pollution is incredible. I mean, there is near starvation. In general, maybe public, or general public discourse, I think maybe. Definitely, there is a feeling of well, not entirely at fault, but also not entirely innocent. Of course, the established media are still very much in deadline. But let's talk about very progressive people. What I feel, and I think it's corroborated by various public opinion polls and so on, there is a shift in public opinion. There is a lot more, let's say, critical attitude to Israel now than was at that time, 50 years ago. That's definitely true. So the design is, and the Israeli Hasbarah, the propaganda machine, is really desperate for weapons to come to this. It is especially true. And this is proved by various bits of research and again polls, that there is this process of disenchantment with the Israeli among young people, students, and including Jewish young people. And they find this very worrying. A measure of this is the BDS movement. The BDS movement is causing them a lot of headache because it is gaining support. You can't say that it is hurting Israel economically. But in terms of its profile, its standing in public opinion, especially among students, among younger people. Look, I mean, this young Palestinian girl, a soldier comes to her home, stands in front yard of her home. She slaps him and spits him in his face. I mean, she's become a heroic figure. She actually, in the circumstances, especially in the circumstances of a military dictatorship, is a mild protest. A soldier came, she didn't go to him. He came to her front yard. And she said, go away, she slapped him and a young kid. And I think also there was, you know, her cousin had recently also been shot by... Yeah, now he's arrested, you know? The last day. Yes, yesterday they arrested him. He's a 15-year-old. He's got half his face missing. He's got part of his skull. He still needs to be fitted back because they had to remove part of his skull, you know, to treat his brain. Because, you know, touch and go. I mean, it's a sort of medical miracle that he survived. And this guy would have a face. He's a kid of 15 years. When you were in Matt's pain in Israel at the time, there were a few, dozen of you. How do you feel the anti-Zionist left in Israel always now? It's in very poor state. The anti-Zionist, first of all, it's very small. But we were small in 1968. But it is fragmented in the sense that there is no single organization with a program of any size, maybe, you know, group of five people, you know? But we had a sort of outlook program. We were not a single issue group. Matt's pain was, you know, if you like, a mini-party or a political organization with its own view on world events, on socialism, including on the issues of immediate concern, you know, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and so on. Matt's pain was not even created in order specifically to deal with the local issue. It was, it came into being as a social organization with views on world political issues. There is no such group on the radical anti-Zionist left in Israel. There are groups that function on single issues. They do marvelous work as anarchists against the world, to Ayush, you know, nominated mainly by people with the sort of Communist Party affiliation. And various other groups who do work on single issues of law, but there is no political organization that has even an idea of organizing the Israeli working class. I wonder if you could explain why you think it's important as part of the anti-Zionist struggle to also, you know, build beliefs within... How long have you got? I mean, you want to start now. I'll be very brief. Look, in the end, we always believed, you know, since the beginning of Matsbyen, that the only social force that can overthrow the Zionist regime in Israel is the Israeli working class. If you take a contrary example of South Africa, apartheid was overthrown by a cross-tragrining side. Okay? But the difference was that the working class that overthrew the apartheid regime was part of the oppressed population. They had an interest to get rid of apartheid, even if it wasn't actually accompanied by a socialist transformation. What have you got in the case of Israel? The colonization of Palestine by Zionism was a completely different model. The indigenous population, as opposed to South Africa, was not exploited, but excluded. Neither the surrounding Arab states, nor the majority of the Palestinian people are capable of overthrowing the existing regime. It is only the Israeli working class itself that can do it. It is the only... If you look around, what other forces are able to do it? I don't think there are. But why should it do it? If not, I mean, to achieve one democratic state with equal rights for everyone under the capitalist regime, what would it gain from this? It would still be an exploited class, but it would lose its national privileges as part of a privileged nation. You know, dominant nation. Israeli working class has no interest in what is put forward as the one state solution, which is the plan proposed by some... Many people, and it would be lovely if it could be implemented. But who is going to do it? You need to overthrow the Israeli regime. Why should the majority of the Israeli working class and its natural allies? Why should they do it? It wouldn't improve their situation as a class, as an exploited class, because it would be a capitalist state.