And since there's a bit of lack of faith there, but you could also recognize that some people need to have facts. They need to be presented with evidence, right? Big part of this is moving from discovery to delivery. And that transition is not always easy. What has been your experience working through your consultancy gigs, building the book? What have been your experience of kind of evangelizing this in some of these organizations where there's a lot of expectation around delivery? And how do you basically reassure some of these leaders when you're talking

about holistic product discovery? Let me tell you a story.

So this client of ours four years ago, we started this journey, we worked with them for a year and a half. And number one thing that was right from the beginning is that the CPO and the CTO wanted to collaborate. They understood that they had a problem. And the problem they had was that the products that they had in the market wasn't getting the traction that they wanted. And product and tech was decoupled from one another. And the way things flow, it was that you had somebody high up the food chain coming up with an idea, giving that idea to a product manager and the product manager kind of translates that and gives it over to an agile product owner. And the product owner creates a backlog of things to deliver. And then the developers pick up the baton and deliver. And then you have output features. And that didn't get any traction that kind of way of working. And so we wanted to address that problem. And we gave them some simple recommendations. And the essence was that we wanted to bring people together to form empowered teams. We didn't call them empowered teams, but we, it's the concept of empowered teams that it's a balanced team cross functional team that works together and does product discovery together. And then we started to talk to customers on a regular basis. And so we coach, we started with one team and coach, and then there was two teams and three teams, etc. And in the beginning, there was a lot of pushback from engineers like meeting customers. What are you talking about? That's not my job on the code. But for every month or so, there started to become more engagement in these teams by meeting customers. And then we transitioned and started talking to more and more teams across the organization. And then we met one of the engineers, maybe nine months after we started working with them in the cafeteria. And the engineer lit up and said, Hey, and start talking about the transition that this team has had gone through that. Yeah, we were talking to customers and we totally understand that the product that we built is not addressing their problems, but we're working on fixing that. Epiphany. Wow, we're going in the right direction. We're fixing things together as a team. And then I think it was a year after we talked to the CPO and the CPO was saying, Oh, this product, it's getting a lot of traction, selling stakeholders are very happy. But what's important to talk through regarding the story is that it took a year and a half, two years, until we reached that point, the CPO being really happy with the business results. So it takes time for this transition to happen. It's not just about attending a product discovery training or reading and the empowered book. It, you need as a leader, if you want this transition, this change to happen, which leads to positive business results. You need to to understand that it takes time. And you need to let go and trust the teams. And that is, especially in this economic context. It's hard for a leader to do that. Like, hope that story had some insight to where we are.

It definitely does. Thanks for sharing, by the way. I think, you know, there's, especially evolving in this field. Sometimes I can see that there are operators who are working in companies. We talked about good product and bad product earlier on. Some people are evolving in environments that are not necessarily doing all the right stuff. And sometimes there's this disbelief, like, does it exist? Is there a company somewhere that does product well? And it's good for these people to hear stories where you can actually see that in some companies out there for real. Some of this stuff is being done in the right way. And teams are actually collaborating. People are missionaries, not mercenaries. People are not territorial about the work they're doing. But it's all about, like you mentioned, multiple times in this episode. Coming together. At the end of the

day, it's

about people, right? People build products. It's all about people. Not so much about technology. I keep reminding people about this. Listen, guys, it was great having you on the show. I had great fun having this conversation, especially because we appear as a same group trying to move the industry in the right direction. So thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it. Before I let you go, this is my favorite segment of this show. I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions. Some of them are a bit random. So the first thing I will ask is from each of you, what have been some of the most helpful resources you've used in your career that have helped you accelerate your career? So could be like a book that you read or something you watched, like anything content-wise that you've consumed at some point, that was really a bit of a flipping moment for you. The idea is for us to share some of this with a wider community so they can have a look and maybe you'll have the same effect on their careers. Who wants to

start?