Danisio is also an academic, a scholarly book he co-edited called Out of the Ashes was one of the first books I read when I moved to the country. He's also a songwriter, singer and guitarist. That song playing in the background is from his YouTube channel. I had to begin by asking Danisio whether he slept much.

Well I'm enjoying it and the motivation is that because he wants to contribute to this country particularly in this first stage of independence and it's well he's trying to actually identify which path that it needs to actually choose to define his future. So it's very exciting.

You're perfectly placed to be able to talk about this issue as to whether people that are now senior political leaders like you that get scholarships to Indonesia, New Zealand and to Australia. The argument is that if you're Indonesia or if you're Australia or New Zealand that if you give a scholarship to someone junior like a Mr. Danisio Baboswares that in the future this will be useful because you'll be able to call up Dr. Danisio Baboswares and say to him hey don't you remember me you did your masters in New Zealand you did your bachelors in Indonesia you did your PhD at the Australian National University. Does it work that way

in real life? Something that you can't deny is that emotional attachments to these institutions that you've been to will remain there forever and of course you're patient for the country that actually once accepted you to live there and you know facilitated your studies but you know as someone who has been involved at the middle and high positions of a country where you are required to think and make decisions about the life of your country the life of your people the economy and all those kind of things you often come to a situation where you need to balance between A and B, B and C and also you need to make sure that any decision that you make will not jeopardize your country. But you know I would say that you also trying to make such a way that you don't heart the feelings of institutions and countries that you once attached to but I think also it is because after living in these countries studying there knowing their people their culture their way of life you know the way people treat each other and all these kind of things it really influences you and you feel more confident when dealing with these countries which you know of no matter whatever decision that you have to make to defend the interests of your country. So you kind of wait up between A and B but without having any intention of jeopardizing either side.