Robert Trager joins the podcast to discuss AI governance, the incentives of governments and companies, the track record of international regulation, the security dilemma in AI, cybersecurity at AI companies, and skepticism about AI governance. We also discuss Robert's forthcoming paper International Governance of Civilian AI: A Jurisdictional Certification Approach. You can read more about Robert's work at https://www.governance.ai Timestamps: 00:00 The goals of AI governance 08:38 Incentives of governments and companies 18:58 Benefits of regulatory diversity 28:50 The track record of anticipatory regulation 37:55 The security dilemma in AI 46:20 Offense-defense balance in AI 53:27 Failure rates and international agreements 1:00:33 Verification of compliance 1:07:50 Controlling AI supply chains 1:13:47 Cybersecurity at AI companies 1:21:30 The jurisdictional certification approach 1:28:40 Objections to AI governance