I definitely think engineering leadership is coachable, leadership in general is coachable. It's my own story. I was on a technical track I thought I would be a distinguished engineer just be happy on my own and I had reasons for that like I didn't say it just because. The basics of being a manager is to care for people right so there's these moments where it just defined me  in terms of you need to start leading by showing how you want to be led. Those things just cascaded in and I had I was in a startup after that I had amazing mentors there in terms of how do you actually do harder things at different times. So when you go through this

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