Well thank you very much Francis. Dom, before we finish your exclusive episode on Submariner conversation you had, which is on our Battle Lines podcast, sister podcast to Ukraine, the latest, is out. Could you just tell us very quickly about it and why our listeners should go to the Battle Lines feed, become a Telegraph subscriber, and have a listen? Yeah, okay. I interviewed Tom

Sharp, who we speak to regularly, writes for us periodically. Tom Sharp was a skimmer, as in a, on the surface fleet, to use Navy, Navy sort of pollants. And I also interviewed Ryan Ramsey, who was a submarine commander. And he was actually one of the instructors on the Perisher course, which is the course that prospective submarine commanders have to pass in order to take up their appointment. So, you know, he knows his stuff. He knows his underwater onions, I suppose you could say. So got the two of them in, in fact, in this studio here. And I just asked them from that from both of their perspectives from above the waves and below the waves, what it's like hunting submarines in particular, Russian submarines, because they are, they're reckoned to be pretty good at this sort of thing. And so the two, the two chaps sort of went head to head and we're explaining how, how they were both brilliant at it and better than the other one. And then sort of grudgingly accepted that perhaps the gentleman to their left or right might make some small contribution to the overall effort. But it was absolutely fascinating talking to them, particularly when it comes to how sound propagates through water. So they were both explaining how sonar works and how it works differently depending on the temperature and salinity of the water, how far away from major land surfaces, etc, etc. And where those different bodies of water meet, those edges, that's where a good submarine commander will hide his boat or her boat. Because the sound might not be able to break down, break through those layers. So it was absolutely, it was a fascinating discussion about Cassin Mouse and Ryan. So from his submarine he said it's like being in a locked windowless room with no lights on, you're blindfolded, you know the other person's in there, you've each got a knife and you've got to walk around trying to find the other person and kill them before they kill you. how to hunt submarines and the various challenges of being on and above the waves. But a fascinating chat then, and I do recommend it. Ukraine

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