I've heard a lot of people talk about how if you want to like predict the kind of person you're going to be or what's going to happen in your life or, you know, what your professional successes are going to look like, the best predictor is to look at the people who you spend the most time with. Who do we want to be in our circle? Who do we want to have influence us? And I think sometimes we don't think about it like that. Like, who do we want to be more like? Because they're going to have an influence on us that we're not totally aware of in the moment.

So at the deepest level, and it's not to say, you know, all of friendship is strategic. It's actually saying something slightly different, which is that in modern life, unlike our ancestors, we have the beautiful and terrifying opportunity to, at some deep level, choose who we pray with or don't, who we dine with or don't. The majority of us are living with, being neighbors with, working with, wedding people who are different from us in some way, shape, or form. And so, within that level of choice, what are the values of the people that you spend time with? What are they competing over? I often have a friend who says part of her confusion is she doesn't know who her Joneses are. And I said, what do you mean by that? And she said, well, everybody has Joneses. You know, that old saying, like keeping up with the Joneses? You can't apparently escape the Joneses, but you can decide who they are. Do you want to be with people at a default level who are fundamentally reading more than you are and being like, oh, my gosh, I haven't caught up on the latest. I haven't been reading it the way that they are. Or is it that you want to have a free throw that's like better than all of your other friends free throw? Or is that not the currency? And at some deep sociological, simple, banal level, every set of group has its values, has its norms, has the things that they compete over, has the thing that make them laugh. And at some deep level to begin to pause and ask, who do I want to be my Joneses? Who are some

people where you're like, I don't want these to be my Joneses. One way that I would frame it is like, I like that my people around me are when we have like dinner together. We're bringing maybe not the best looking, but like a home cooked meal rather than buying some sort of really fancy, expensive takeout and bringing that over to someone else's house. I like that. And that's not to say that, look, if you love fancy takeout, good for you. But for me, I'm glad that I come home to people who are like, maybe we'll just make some pasta, you know?

You know, groups have shared questions. And I'm a conflict resolution facilitator, and I work with groups. I work with groups that are experiencing some kind of transition or crisis and help them have the conversations that they've been avoiding having. And one of the things that I find over and over again is that groups are relevant to the people in them when they share the same questions. So, for example, the question might be in one group, how do I make the best arrabbiata pasta known to man? And in another group, it might mean in a church, for example, what does closeness to God look like? And part of the opportunity, and, you know, at different moments in life, we choose the groups that we are a part of. But there are moments of transition, often, at least in the U.S., after college or during college or at the kind of quarter life, what's that currently called? The quarter life crisis, you know, 25, like who are my people? Who do I want my people to be? Even if you think about your job, like what are the organizations? If I enter an organization, if I enter a tech company, if at the simplest level, it's like groups carry implicit or explicit questions. And as you are starting to navigate the groups of your life to think about, is this how I want to be spending my time? Do I want to be thinking obsessively about like the shape of a collar in this season's fashion show? For some people, the answer is yes. I absolutely want to be thinking about that shape. And I've been thinking about how the collar shape has changed over 250 years and I finally found my people. Right. Or do I want to be thinking about like the nature of a changing democracy at some deep level when you long term communities start to have shared questions and contentment and group life is when their questions are also the questions you carry.

It's really interesting that you frame it as shared questions and not shared values, which I know sometimes people talk about in groups. I feel like that's intentional.

You know, I am currently working on my next book. And part of what I'm looking at is looking at long term sustainable communities, particularly across difference. And again, in traditional communities, our values at some level are passed down, right? My great-grandmother's values, my great-grandfather's values are perhaps the same values as mine, or I've been told they should be. And part of modern life is we can enter and exit as many communities as you want. It's never been easier to exit a church or synagogue or mosque. It's never been easier to exit a friendship or a marriage. And so part of what ends up becoming interesting and sustainable is when the way a group spends its times or the questions that it asks, and yes, underlying values are absolutely a part of it, but give kind of a forward momentum. They give a spark and a life that is the opposite of flat. They allow people to kind of know what the collective project is. I remember years ago hearing David Brooks speak and he said, no question worthy of pursuit is answerable in a lifetime. And I'm a facilitator. I think of my core craft, like the thing that I have been working on for the last 25 years, is how do you create and structure a conversation within a room that people are trying to avoid, but know that they need to have? And how do you do it in a way that creates breakthrough? That to me is a question worthy of pursuit. I

really loved your book, The Art of Gathering. I thought it both is philosophical, but it's also very practical. And you already brought up how you have worked in conflict resolution. You've worked all over the world. You've worked in Zimbabwe. You've worked in the United States. You've worked in the Middle East. Something that I thought that I hadn't really heard about before is the idea that obviously we know there can be unhealthy conflict, but that there can also be unhealthy peace. Can you talk about that?

I'm biracial. I'm bicultural. My mother's Indian. My father is white American. They met at Iowa State. And I was born in Zimbabwe because it was the closest hospital at the time that would accept an interracial couple from the village they lived in Botswana. And they moved a lot. And eventually when they moved back to the U.S., to Virginia, within a year they separated. And within two years they divorced. And within three years they each remarried other people. But when they announced their separation, everyone was shocked because they never fought. How could these people get in a They don't fight. And from a very young age, I began to realize that human connection is as threatened by unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict. I know that I'm a conflict averse conflict resolution facilitator. like to this day, right, 20 years, 25 years into this, when the kind of, you know, things start getting heated, my palms sweat, my heart starts beating, you know, my body wants to flee. And I think one of the reasons I'm a relatively effective facilitator is because I have deep empathy for the people in the room who also want to jet, right? Get me out of here. I've learned kicking and screaming that actually learning to hold healthy heat isn't only good for communities and for groups and for friendships, but is also a learnable skill. And that in a group, you can get better at this if you choose to try.

What would some of the first steps to get better at holding healthy heat be? What would you suggest for someone who's listening? So

first is to start becoming aware, to be observant of your own conflict style. Are you conflict averse? Are you conflict seeking? Sometimes I use the language, are you a smoother over or a peacemaker? Are people come to you to kind of like cool things down or bring things together? Or are you more of like a poker or a prodder or a troublemaker?

Chris, do you feel like you know yours? Oh, sir. I'm 100% conflict-averse, smoother-over peacemaker. And also, that's why I got into comedy, too, is like, if I can make you laugh, then we're all having fun. I've pierced the bubble of the tension, and we let it out with a laugh. For sure, that is me.

That's amazing. Well, so many studies actually show that one of the most powerful forms of being able to hold healthy heat, can you guess? Is

humor? Could be. Yeah. Yeah. I believe that.

There was a study that showed there was a woman who could predict astronaut teams that were at NASA, whether or not they'd be effective. And the number one quality was

humor. Interesting. And I'll tell you, I'd be the least effective astronaut of all time. They would have a great time as I was vomiting in space, but I would not be someone you want to go to space with. Your

jokes would be the social lubricant of them not killing each other.

Yeah, yeah. They'd inject me. They'd really quickly shoot me out through the airlock. But in the moments before they did that, I would definitely be having them laugh. Yeah,

exactly. I mean, humor is actually an amazing way in to holding healthy heat. And as you know, as a comedian, it's actually a learnable skill. Like humor takes the heat out of certain things. So know your conflict style, become a comedian like Chris. And then third is starting to build the muscles, particularly within a group. Conflict is deeply cultural. There are societies that are conflict seeking and there are societies that-averse. And one of the core principles between those that are able to have conversations like these are the ones that separate people's opinions from themselves.

But

within, again, friend groups, within teams in the workplaces, you can actually create intentional cultures of healthy heat.

There are two other ideas that I've heard you discuss before that have really stuck with me. And this feels very related to. But one is as you're creating the format or the structure, especially when you're dealing with something like heat that can, you know, too much can feel dangerous and too little feels unproductive. I've heard you talk about this idea that as a host, you want to have generous authority. Whatever happens is going to happen, that you actually, it is more generous to take charge. So what does that look like in practice?

So the biggest mistake we make when we gather is we assume that the purpose is obvious and shared.

Yeah.

Oh, I know what a birthday party is. I know what a staff meeting is. I know what a wedding is. And because we don't pause, actually ask, why are we doing this? What is the purpose? Why are we getting married? We should ask that first. Why are we having a wedding? We tend to repeat old forms. And the biggest shift is to first ask, particularly when it seems totally obvious, why are we doing this? What is the need here, right? If I'm turning 37 or 47 or 67, what is it in this moment in my life? What's a need in my life that I might be able to address by bringing together other people? Is it adventure? Is it curiosity? Is it nostalgia? Is it feeling a sense of loneliness? Those are actually different formations of a party. And part of the role of a host in modern life is particularly if you have, if you're creating a sharper gathering, you're creating a gathering that might be a pickleball tournament for people who have never played pickleball before, or a like rave, you know, fill in the blank. You need to really actually help people on board to begin to understand what that is. And a good host, you know, gathering isn't just about connection and love. It is, but it's also about power. It is the radical decision to say, I think a certain group of people should spend their time in a very specific way. Are you on board? So a good host practices what I call generous authority. And that is using your power for the good of the group to help it achieve its purpose. And so often we abdicate our role as hosts because we don't want to impose on each other. But when you actually have a specific idea, then to actually help people understand what is that world that you're building and how do I be successful there? You need to actually help protect people from each other, connect them to each other and to the purpose, and temporarily equalize them. And to do that before anyone enters the room. So generous authority isn't like having people come in and be like, this is the hell this is going to go. It's actually pausing well before and beginning to think like, okay, what is a need in my life? How do I actually begin to tell a story that invites people? It's very simple way of thinking about it is host a gathering. You want to attend, but then bring people along.