How Do You Get Yourself Into Sustainability? I'm Not Getting COVID Touchwood.

Welcome to the AI podcast! In this episode, Beth, Dan, and Lee are joined by the Microsoft ANZ Sustainability lead, Brett Shoemaker. This episode discusses all things sustainability. 

This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own.

Show links: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettshoemaker/

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 11

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Welcome to the AI podcast. Hi Beth. Hi Lee. How are you doing? I'm going to come out with it. I'm I'm I'm new to this game. I'm I've been struck by CO. So, uh I I'm I'm dedicated to the cause. I'm here to join in and listen in. But yeah, unfortunately I'm dealing with the first my first ever experience of CO, which if you've both had it or if any of our listeners have had it, it's not much fun, is it? No, it's not in my list of highlights. Um, it it sounded like uh you know, you've been through all of the symptoms though and perhaps you're out on the other side. I think I'm dealing with Yeah, I've had like, you know, I hadn't my wife was upset because I couldn't taste any dinner last night. It just tasted the same to me. But mental note, never say that to anyone, even if you feel it internally. Um, but uh, no, look, yeah, it's mostly now. It's dealing with this sort of sore throat and coughing. Yeah, this isn't the co episode by any stretch. Uh, but yeah, you may not hear too much from me today. today guys cuz I'll try not to cough over your good your good conversation. Well, luckily we've got a a special guest today as well. We've got Brett Schumer, our Microsoft INZ sustainability lead. So, it's really exciting to have have Brett along to the to the show today as well. So, hi Brett. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Um I can't promise that there won't be coughing cuz while I don't have CO uh that I know of, I I I do have a lucky cough as a result of uh having a small child in daycare that they brought home and handed over to me. Yeah, we've all been there, I think. Yeah. Have you been bad? I've Yeah, I've been really well. I mean, my my family have had CO, so we're facing another wave here. Um uh again, but uh I am not getting CO uh Touchwood. So, I I've been really well and actually I' I've been very much focused on sustainability given uh a heap of global events that are happening around sustainability at the moment. So, I'm very very excited to have the opport unity to talk to Brett today. Yeah. And there's a there's a lot to unpack, hasn't there? There's been a lot going on and I I'm here to learn more as well because I've seen a lot on the news and I've seen a lot of the sound bites, but I think the devil's in the detail and actually, you know, understanding some of these things that that have that have gone on, you know, in the last couple of weeks and over the last several years really and the acceleration has been fantastic. So, before we get into the detail with it, Brett, can you tell us a bit about yourself and how you got interested in sustainability? generally. Oh, sure. So, um Dan, you gave a bit of it in the intro. So, I I as the head of sustainability for Microsoft and ANZAD, I guess my usual line is um unlike many sustainability officers, I actually don't spend my days in the world of uh compliance or reporting is actually in working with our clients and partners to uh advance their sustainability journey. So, really in support of others. Um look, I you know, I I can't say you know I don't come at it from uh a science background in terms of how I got in the space. You know, I've as in my time at Microsoft, I've always worked on uh incubation businesses for the last 15 years and this is really it shares a lot of the similar attributes just in terms of a uh a new muscle, a new motion, a new way of operating that we're doing. Um but then the the driver and I I'll share this is on the personal side um actually came a couple years ago right at the start of the pandemic. Um I we had we were in the unfortunate situation where um my my daughter who was three at the time was diagnosed with high-risisk metastatic neuroblastoma which was a stage 4 cancer. I'm happy to report she's a healthy kidney uh kid today. Um and uh but we did go through a very difficult and trying 18 months of treatment and and and I can't pinpoint the moment but there was definitely a moment along the journey where I said it felt a lot more about what I want to be doing and how I want to be spending my time. And um and I always felt, you know, I I didn't have the ability to help uh cure her cancer, but I sure as heck could, you know, work to make the world a better place around her for for when she does win her fight. And uh and that was really the the genesis of starting to to work in this space. Um was, you know, how can I use the platform and the opportunities that I have today to to go do uh what I want to do and and and bring a bit more purpose uh to to my work. Yeah. Wow. Fantastic. Yeah. What an incredible source of inspiration, Brett. I um I I think we're all parents on on the the pod and one of the things that often strikes me is is the world that we're leaving um to our children and and what they are likely to inherit. I have noticed in coming back to Microsoft about four years ago that our focus on sustainability has been very much um uh very much a focus for us at as a global company. It seems like it's been um more of a central part of our strategy than ever before um and certainly more than it was when I started early in the 2000s. Have you observed that sort of renewed focus on sustainability and what do you think is driving that for Microsoft. Oh, it's been a drastic change. Um, well, I shouldn't say dra, it's been a noticeable change. I careful in the word using the word drastic cuz we like we made our first commitments back in 2009, put a carbon fee in the business in 2012. U, but it was in 2020 when we increased our commitments and and those just the quick version of those today are to be uh carbon negative, water positive, and zero waste by 2030 uh while protecting more land. And then we use in building a planetary computer. Nice long run on sentence there. Uh in terms of getting it out the um but the look the I mean the the truth is that when we increased our commitments in 2020 like we did so-c from a corporate social responsibility standpoint because we thought they were the right thing to do. We we did so with huge observation bias. We didn't realize how high it was on the agenda uh of others. Um and and I think when we increased those commitments, we got a lot of questions around the how are we doing it, what are we doing, what have we learned along the way that in in truth we didn't expect. Um and so I think that change that you referenced was really born out of a need to start to share some of the learnings and lessons both from like our steps forward and our steps back um with others and and like the way that I think about it is you think of Microsoft's overall emissions in a given year are 0.03 of a percent of the annual emissions. But then when you think about the impact that we can have in terms of working you know within the the nations where we reside and and with with and through others that we're already engaging with um from a digital technology standpoint today That's where our that's where we feel like our reach and impact scales. So very much if we're if we've learned if we've learned a lot from our journey, it would it would be a disservice not to not to share it uh with others. One of the one of the things that I have noticed is um you know technology isn't a manufacturing company. You know we don't have this massive footprint but what we can do is help customers measure their impact. And I I know that um that is part of the the battle is getting that visibility over um over those uh details. And in my prior job, I was working for a big global healthcare company and I literally spent a year trying to collect and bring together all of the data in one central place to uh identify the um our carbon emissions at a global um from a global point of view. And that involved maybe four or five other people and We worked literally for a year. So yeah, how how how things have changed. Yeah. I mean, if if I you know, I think back to a year and a half ago or maybe a little bit longer than that when I was really starting to get more into the space in terms of what does it mean for people that are that are that are pulling together their compliance and reporting and disclosures on a basis and and you know, I had heard the line that it's a very manual process. You know, a lot Excel files or even physical pe pieces of paper that are showing up in the mail and you know not that I didn't believe it but I think you know as you got into it just simply if you looked at it and said hey there's a massive opportunity for us to help with the automation of this like regardless of the context um I think that is certainly true and you know the you know the thing is that you know my supplier is your supplier my customer is your customer so there's very much a a a shared incentive going about work in this space from a measurement standpoint or proprietary way like would be the wrong approach because you know I I get the same request in terms of here's the 200 questions we want you to answer as it relates to what we're doing from a environmental sustainability standpoint and and hey you take those 200 questions and multiply it by another 200 entities asking a different set of 200 questions it gets pretty big pretty quick and So, you know, there I think there's there's a lot that can be done like the um I I was um I spoke at Impact X last week, which was one of the larger climate conferences in Australia and New Zealand. Um and it was I was on a panel as it relates to uh regenerative agriculture and and my I think my opening statement was we should all have optimism in the space because you know all of the measurement and controls that we're talking about from an environmental standpoint They're all built today in a financial context. Like we're and what we're really talking about here is applying those same financial controls uh to to to the environment um and in in an environmental form. Um and and so that same technologies and pieces that underpin it from a financial standpoint like can just be applied in a different way. That's that's so interesting the way that that that parallels there. I never thought about that before. That's great. So when you're speaking to customers and I know you spoke a couple of my customers as well, Brett, over the time. Um, so over the last couple of months, you're speaking to more and more customers. Um, what are you hearing from them at the minute about their sustainability ambitions? How's it how's it how's it kind of working down the chain there? Yeah. Um, it's a really it's probably the hardest question to answer because it does such range a wide spectrum. Um, and and I think that's, you know, in terms of those that are just embarking on sustainability journey to those that are quite progressed and matured and and and so maybe as a way to answer it I I'll give you what the data the data tells you uh because we did some work oh gosh it was probably about nine months ago in partnership with the univers goldsmith out of the university of London um we worked with them because they had done similar work in the UK and we wanted a good comparison point um and we looked at uh large Australian or A&Z organizations because there was a report for Australia and New Zealand and and the uh basically organizations that are 200 plus employees in size and what like what that came back and said or at least the exact summary of it if you will would you know hey we we're we're big on uh Australian and New Zealand businesses we're on the front lines of the climate crisis whether it's the the bushfires or the flooding events that we've seen um and so the it's very real for us um you know ambition is there with over threequarters of Ansaid businesses having net zero commitments typically in the 2050 time frame. Um but uh we're they're struggling to make progress against them and over a third of those businesses saying they're not on track to hit those 2050 uh targets or commitments self-reporting that. Um and there really three reasons that that consistently come up for it. One is around uh availability of skills. Do I have the people to deliver against uh my commitments and help me make prog ress on it. The second was access to technology. I mean technology in the very broad sense um you know that if I um if I am in the built environment and steel is or cement is an input how do I uh you know green steel is a requirement in the progress of that uh to be able for me to hit my uh net zero commitment. So I mean in the very lucid sense what's interesting in that space is you know while I think it was 80% of uh A&Z business have a heavy relianceless tech innovation. But what's interesting is less than half were actually investing to be a customer of donor to or investor in those same solutions that they'll ultimately require. Um and then the third area is the one that we already touched on was that around measurement and and what you saw was less than half of ANZAD businesses were investing in tools to help them with the automation of that measurement today and only 11% were actually mapping emissions back to their sources. And what I mean by that is is getting back to where that core uh emission source sits. Yeah. The building management system for the uh environment uh that you may occupy in terms of office space. Uh the others were just doing a an estimation, you know, using operational data and general ledger data to to estimate um what the what their emissions were. Yeah, that's that's fantastic. And it's really interesting the way you kind of brought that together in a in an easy this form and and apologies of course that that that that uh Goldsmith's um uh research is fantastic. We'll put the link to in the show notes because there's some great um uh learnings from there and it really gives you a lens on what customers are doing across the landscape. So, thanks for supporting that project. I think it's great. Brett, um one of the things I I think it was one of my most proud proudest days working for Microsoft when we announced our global goals. They were I think um quoted as moon goals because we set these targets, but we actually publicly announced that we weren't quite sure how we were going to achieve them. And when I read the latest 2021 report, I can see that we're reasonably on track with our scope one and two emissions, but off off track with scope three. Um I I wondered if you could talk a little bit about, you know, where you see us on our journey, but also one thing that I've observed Microsoft doing and doing well um is publishing white papers and blogs and being really transparent about our journey. Do you think that um you know if we are struggling other companies must be struggling as well and how important is it for us all to you know work together as a a global community to solve these these problems? It seems to me like it's not necessarily a commercial piece where we're competing and keeping all this intellectual property but we're using to disclose and move things forward. I wonder if you had thoughts on that. Yeah. Well, um I'll I'll start by saying the good news is those 2030 goals are not moonshots anymore. Like they are clear they're there are clear commitments with a with a path uh towards them. The one moon the one moonshot that's left is the our 2050 goal of by 2050 having removed more carbon from the atmosphere than we've emitted since our founding in 1975. Um the um you know the the piece in terms of our progress. So yes, one of the core principles of the work is transparency. That's stated very clearly. I think you can even find it up on our on our public uh web page. Um and and the reason for that and it's another thing I talked about a little bit last week was you know the the pledges were an important and critical first step creates clarity within the organization. Helps people understand what are the And and to be to be clear, there's there's actually 40 to 50 different commitments because there's the milestones along the way that are about uh the progress. Um and the uh that so so that piece is critical, but it's actually the work that we've done as we've made progress that has taught us the most. And uh and that it comes back to both the steps for and steps back, right? So yes, in the last year, our scope 3 emissions increased um largely as a result of the pandic mic as we all uh transition to remote work, the rise in device use that occurred around it, the energy grids that were now we're now not in uh now not in an office that may have renewable energy powering it s you know maybe it's solar sitting up on the rooftop now we're in each of our individual homes um and and certainly as as someone who has three children under nine um I will say there was more iPad use and device use Xbox use during school during homeschool hours than it was, you know, when they're in school and and and and you know, Xbox, you know, people sitting in your home paying Xbox use is all downstream for us. It's it's part of our scope 3 emissions and so um but yeah, you know, it's sharing some sharing some of those learnings on the journey, right? For scope 3 emissions today, we have uh you know, we put a requirement in for a supplier code of conduct uh several years ago, I believe it was in 2020 at the time of those commitments. Um we have 80% of suppliers that are reporting today across all three scopes, but we knew that wasn't going to be enough. We added some tools and resources that were there to help them with those disclosures. And in the last year, we started working with the um specifically in Asia with the with the IMF and the World Bank identifying for our most material suppliers what are potential mitigations um helping them find uh where they can procure some of those um alternatives from and offering them affordable financing through the World Bank as a way to um to to help with the adoption of them. And so um you know many of those pieces has been a journey, right? Like I always think about the pieces that are within your control and the pieces that are within your influence. And so control the things that we can control and continue to invest to influence and and if I then I build to you know Well, hey, yes, you know, if I were to say any of our terms and contracts around offtake agreements for carbon removal, public documents today. Any of our learnings from it, public documents today. Um, any of the uh RFIs or uh EOIs that we've put out to market for carbon removal are freely shared today. And it's the the whole premise, like if I really were to strip it back, is those that have the ability to do more should. And we are in a fortunate position that not others are in. Partly given size partly given the geographic footprint uh partly driven by balance sheet and so the the sharing others is the you know there's there's not much time left between 2030 and no one's going to wake up on Jan 1 2030 and realize that they've hit a goal uh and so you know why have others go through the same lessons and learnings and challenges that we did if we can just shorten that accelerate it yeah thank you Brent I have a poorly formed question in my head around the technology side of this because you know I I so as a parallel to me I think about the work we did in responsible AI as a company and and initially that was a lot about how do we build better technology to be more responsible more ethical more more principled in its approach and it sort of over time really became actually you know what the tech is just kind of not even 30% it's just this little part of it it's people process and communication and mechanisms and other things that drive it and so I think about this with sustainability ambitions and goals. There's, you know, obviously it's, as you've just talked about, there's a lot of it is just talking about it and sharing information and being and disclosing and kind of building a community of people that just who can and therefore should contribute to this problem domain. But then parts of it are very technical. I mean, I know for example, things like measuring carbon as a as an asset is a very technically challenging thing to do for our farming and agriculture industry to be able to buy, trade, and ship those uh and broadly just kind of think about how we remove carbon is a technical challenge. So my question that is poorly formed is like from your point of view is this a is it a technical challenge? Is it a societal challenge? Is it something that like how do we how much technology and given we're a technology company how much do we think technology is actually going to be the impetus for change or is it just going to get pulled along in the journey? So look you will never hear me say that technology is the cure. to the climate crisis that we face. It it isn't it it plays a supporting role that can help you know some of the same I think about all that all the work that happens from a research and science standpoint effectively is using cores that sits in data centers to process and crunch data and so um you know it does have a it does have a role to to play um look it maybe I'll give you so I recently heard it was Paul Hawin. Um, if you don't know Paul Hawin, he wrote Project Drawdown. Um, he's one of the co-founders of Project Drawdown, which is an organization today. And gosh, I'm blanking on what his second book is, but I think it's it's regenerative something and I'm blanking on what the second word is. Um, but um, I'm a huge fan of of Paul's, full disclosure, but you know, so I heard him talking last week, and he was actually talking, it was kind of in that same vein of a lot of the pieces from a sustainability standpoint, whether it be the words that we use, uh, TNFD, TCFD, GHG, like the acronyms or, you know, a nature-based solution, they're they're they often are can be offputting uh to people to help them understand what it is that they need to do or to prompt someone to act. You can kind of get that paralysis that's there. And look, if there's anything the last 30 or 40 years has taught us is just putting out data points and facts isn't gonna actually help someone. And so, uh, like when I think about it, like I think about it, which is prompting people to act by telling stories, um, putting it in. And so, so tie that back to your question, Lee, like I when I think about the technology, I think the technology is in the backdrop of the story, right? Um, you're familiar with, but like you know, the the partnership that we have with CSRO around healthy country AI, like in those stories around how we've used uh um AI to like you know I tell the story of the the turtles uh on the coastline of Cape York and how AI helps support indigenous rangers to help them conone their uh hone their conservation efforts by using that data to quantify the quantity and uh activity of predators that are in the area enabling them to cover long large swaths of land um to see 20,000 of those turtles make it to the ocean each year to to preserve a um a species and and I use that right because it's the like you can you can know knowing the importance and feeling urgency are two different things. I can know the importance of saving endangered species, but it's seeing the progress as those 20,000 turtles make it to the coastline each year that gives me the urgency to either act now or continue to act more. Uh that momentum piece and and so I think technology is in the it plays a role but it's it's it's it's in the in the background. It's the enabler of of that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I I I wouldn't disagree with you. I'm glad you share that view. I just there's always a tendency I think that you know we we sort of see technology as the panacea of all good. It can you know if we build enough tech we can solve problems but I think you're right these these are big ESG problems that are not tech tech's an enabler but not the uh kind of the creator of the the solution if you like. Yeah, it's enabler and like and you're right it's the you know I never want to come like I think about any conversation I have I never want to come across as as pitching technology um at the same time uh you know think about the role that like the role that I feel that Microsoft can play in the tech sector at large is to help help the world innovate out of the climate crisis we face and so it is the like we we do know that innovation going to be required that we know that technology is going to have to help to scale some of these engineered and I'm going to use one of those words that uh Paul Hawin would encourage me not to use those engineered solutions but like the the solutions exist today there's a lot of work that needs to happen to see them deliver at scale and we we know that technology is a an enabler some of that yeah I think you know Brett the important thing is um because it's easy to see us as a tech company and see you as a representative of that tech company walking into a room and you know like you go to these events and you represent tech and so you just need to be kind of really tampering that back to the point that it's not about the fact I represent tech but actually what you represent and as we say in our responsible AI we represent the responsibility that we have as a tech company not the technology itself but the the position we want to take up which is hey we want to be part of the solution which is not just about our tech it's about our people and our process so I think it's great that you bring it up but sorry Beth you want to jump in? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was just thinking about the broader interpretation of the word technology and if we think about technology in the context of the industrial revolution, arguably it was technology that caused this problem in the first place. So, the the way that we use technology to transport ourselves or grow our food, design our cities, you arguably technology was was um one of the ways that um this problem has come about in the first place. And it need needs to. Yeah, I love that that way of describing how technology can empower us to come up with solutions to solve this problem, but it's not in and of itself the solution. Um Brett, we're talking to you during the middle of COP 27 and you one of the things that I often struggle with is how complex this is as a a truly global issue and we we talk about all the kind of challenges we're facing Arguably, the politics and the personal relationships are going to be just as complex, but we need them to be happening in order to collaborate to solve the problem. Are you optimistic about these processes as a mechanism to to kind of get everyone on the same page achieving the same goals? Oh, am I optimistic? Um I guess I I characterize myself as a bit of a realist like I I I think that these global forums play a important role in the absence of everyone coming together and having that forcing function or some level of accountability around what it is that you're doing. I don't think that would I I don't think eliminating it would help the cause. And I say realist because at the same time I'm very very measured in terms of what to expect coming out of it. There's not a there's not a a magical answer that's suddenly going to emerge through COP and all all things be fixed. You know, this is a space that is going that requires both public sector and private sector coming together. It requires collaboration. Collaboration is not easy. Um if you want to go fast, you go alone. If you want to go far, you go together. Um and so and we're in a need to to go far and go fast at the same time. Um and and so uh but I I do say all right so let's take COP 27 have there been some things coming out of it that I view positively yes um there increasing level of rules and scrutiny around greenwashing and specifically for the financial services sector and how can I you know can I continue like will I be able to continue to make net zero statements uh while can you explain what greenwashing is? Uh greenwashing is basically um oh gosh I should have a really clear uh definition for you Dan. So um uh overstating the work that one may be doing uh to in pursuit of net zero or uh climate targets okay let's say that way a one and a half degree future okay so uh so increased rules around greenwashing policing of that and I use that word very loosely um to you know effectively raise the bar for what is credible in terms of you know do do actions match commitments and for the financial services sector it's often from a financed emission standpoint am I continue like will I be able to continue to uh uh fund and finance um uh fossil fuel expenditures and still make a net zero commitment likely not um the second there's an increased amount of pressure on the World Bank and IMF in terms of overhauling some of his processes which I think is uh good and and maybe I should say for those that don't know COP 27's focus this year is on the global south the southern hemisphere and how does the developing world sorry the developed world um support the developing world in terms of the climate transition right and but there are other areas that are coming out too like um uh I think with the G20 summit which is later this month you'll continue to see more uh announcements that are about getting private financing flowing. Um and then there have been um new rules to strengthen some of the carbon markets. Um which is the basically what does a high integrity carbon offset look like? Um and you know in in your ideal utopian world, you wouldn't require carbon offsets for us to reach net zero. The truth is that we do require them to to to get there in the time frame that we need to. And there's some goodness in them. if done correctly um and that many of these solutions because net zero is just a milestone we ide goal is to remove or or uh some of the carbon from the atmosphere such that we unwind you know what we've done over the last 20 or 30 years and so you know that you know the same solutions that support some of those offsets or is it's basically capital going to car carbon removal that we will require to to get beyond uh net zero and unwind some of the climate impact that we've had. Brett, the other sort of element that is interesting about the the process is just how integral it is to include corporate partners and that that sort of commercial voice. Have you have you got any thoughts around you know what is the role of a corporate? I know Microsoft we're the strategic sponsor and and we're facilitating a number of side events as part of COP. What is our role. What is the role of corporates at something like this? How are we important? Look, um I mean go back to my earlier comment of like this ultimately is both it requires both private sector and public sector to to act. Um and so uh and depending on where you sit in the world uh private sector or public sector may be actually leading uh in terms of the transition. Uh COP 26 was the first like really noticeable sharp noticeable increase in the amount of private sector uh attendees and and COP 27 has been no different. Um and and COP 26 was really where a lot of the financial services sector from a private sector standpoint showed up for in force for the first time. And you think about that you know the context of like the focus this year around how do we continue to finance and support the the global south like you know how do you do that in the absence of having private sector at the table offering, you know, in those and I like I'm going to have to use the word negotiation, but some of those discussions around what does that look like? And so, um, look, I I think uh it requires everyone to act. And so, you know, private sector being there and private sector often being where most of the law I mean, I I can think of scenarios where it might be nationalized infrastructure where it sits within public sector, but some of those large emitters generally are are within the private sector. So I think it's an important role u for them to be there. So bringing this all together then I think I love the comment you said earlier on about we should all have optimism in this space I love that. Um what's what's exciting you most about sustainability over the next year? Give us something to live for. Brett what excites me like what gives me optimism? I think younger generations is what I feed off of for optimism. Like the the level of climate awareness uh that's there. Um I mean there's not too many conversations where it's like someone doesn't say, you know, every one of our new employee orientation classes, you know, I'm getting asked that question. You know, every person I interview is asking about our our climate uh credentials. Um and because it's a supply side and demand side piece and So, you know, there's this, you know, when everyone uh whether it be a a shareholder, uh or your employee base or your client base, um is demanding these things of you. Um it tends to have a really good outcome in terms of driving change. Um and so, so I'd say I'd say that I I say I I think it is the that level of climate awareness of younger generations. And you know, I I I do I interact a lot with kind of a startup and scale up type communities and you know the what people are building on top of the platform and what's po like on a on a cloud platform or the technology that they're building and seeing some of that stuff like it you know it it I continue to be surprised by I surprised you you continue to see use cases that you would never have dreamed of right of like you know the application of technology or what someone's trying to accomplish and and that that piece gives me gives me optimism. Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, we we we just saw a climate election uh with our last federal election, right? Like that was a a great example of Yeah. of uh of the power that each of us hold uh whether the we vote with our dollars or we vote with our actual vote from political standpoint. Yeah, it's a and so look, it's a really important point that you know this is a this is the people It's driven by people. You know, you talk about the election there. That's that's a people power decision that drives a particular change. And a lot of what you talked about, Brett, I think, is really about how people come together and share, create, and kind of build the mechanisms that are going to change it. And and to your point around it's the next generation. I was I you know, you you struggled there for a bit when you asked about that optimize your optimism for the future, but you got there and you had an answer, which was great because it is, you know, it's not to say that we've all given up. But we're we we have to kind of do more for that next generation because they are going to beat us to the to the chase in terms of really taking this problem and solving it, you know, and and and just kind of shaming us as a generation. And I hate for that to be our legacy. Yeah. Look, I'm no I'm no different than anyone else that works in this space. We've all experienced a little climate anxiety at some point. So when you ask me about optimism, that flashes through my head. Yeah, totally. Look, you know, and you know, we certainly don't joke about these things, but right now in Australia, you know, people out in Forbes and Lismore and their areas are dealing still with these things that you know ma massive issues. So look, thank you Brett. Uh we're at time. I really appreciate you sharing so much of your insight um your views and and kind of making it clear that this is sort of everyone's problem. We've all got a part to play. Whether you work for a tech company, whether you work for you know in some sector or wherever it is, you've got a voice, you've got a role and there's an opportunity for you to speak up and be part of something you know in some way to contribute. Don't say problem. Everyone's opportunity. at opportunity. I love it. Great time. Let's address the opportunity in front of us. Hey, Brett. All right. Well, thank you all for having me.