Intro

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Are you wondering how AI will really change the way agencies work? Will it replace your team, or make them better than ever? Artificial intelligence continues to be at the forefront of most tech conversations, and that’s exactly why agency owners can’t afford to ignore it.

Today’s guest believes the real future of AI in agencies isn’t about replacement—it’s about augmentation. Humans bring the high-leverage ideas, AI scales the execution, and the magic happens in the collaboration between the two.

That’s why he challenges his team to master a skill first—understanding every step—before delegating pieces of it to AI. By doing so, they not only achieve stronger results but also gain the ability to explain, teach, and refine the process. For agencies, this thoughtful integration turns AI from a threat into a powerful accelerator.

Josh Payne is a serial entrepreneur and the founder of Coframe, which helps businesses continuously optimize their digital experiences. Before that, he co-founded Autograph, scaling it to unicorn status within just over a year, and previously sold his first company, AccessBell, to India’s Tata Group.

A Stanford AI researcher and occasional lecturer, Josh has blended tech, entrepreneurship, and big-name partnerships into a career full of lessons that agency owners can apply to their own journey.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

• The power of just asking.

• Should we be worried about AI?

• Why the human element still wins.

• When AI shows empathy.

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Sponsors and Resources

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Building Big, Fast (and What Comes After)

Josh’s first exit was AccessBell, acquired by Tatai Group. Then came Autograph, the NFT platform co-founded with connections in the entertainment industry that quickly attracted celebrities and athletes like Tom Brady. The company went unicorn in about a year, proof that timing, partnerships, and execution can fuel explosive growth.

But Josh is quick to admit that pace sets a dangerous bar. When he launched Coframe, progress felt slower. The natural question arises: why am I not going as fast as I did last time? For any agency owner who’s had one “big win,” the fear of never matching that level again is real. For Josh, it comes down to stop chasing vanity metrics and focusing on the real value you’re creating. The long burn, when tied to a larger vision, often builds a stronger foundation.

The Power of Just Asking

One of the best stories from Josh’s Autograph journey was how Tom Brady got involved. It was a simple conversation, made possible because a co-founder’s family knew Brady. They took a shot, asked for a call, and suddenly, an NFL legend wasn’t just an investor—he was a co-founder.

They were, of course, very lucky, but the lesson for Josh was that you’ll never land your dream client (or partner) if you don’t step up to bat. Too many agencies convince themselves certain clients are “out of reach,” when in reality, decision-makers are more approachable than you think. Even the busiest people have time for the right conversation if you show up as a person, not a pitch machine.

Separating Yourself from Your Business Identity

With all these exits, Josh is still struggling with the identity crisis that comes with selling or stepping away from a company. Like Jason back when he sold his agency, Josh felt like he’d sold his soul and is still wrestling with how to separate being a tech founder from just being Josh.

Your business is not your identity, as performance coach Todd Herman (the guy behind Kobe Bryant’s “Black Mamba” alter ego) helped Jason understand. You’re not an “agency owner” by identity. You’re a creator, innovator, and strategist. Those traits travel with you into whatever you do next. Lose the label, keep the essence.

Fighting the Metrics Spiral

Every agency owner knows the feeling: dashboards screaming that you’re 30% down from last month, the creeping panic that you’re “slipping.” Josh admits he’s guilty of chasing these vanity metrics too, and it’s exhausting. The problem is that short-term sprints cloud the long-term vision.

But focusing only on the long-term isn’t right either. You can’t sit back dreaming and stop executing. Josh calls it a balance game. Some days require in-the-weeds execution. Other days call for pulling up to 30,000 feet and resetting the vision. And finding ways to get into that higher-level thinking state is crucial.

Finding Flow and Big Picture Clarity

One of Josh’s surprising hacks for perspective is the float tank, a sensory deprivation chamber where you float weightless in silence. He describes it as being suspended between sleep and wakefulness, giving him the clarity to see the forest instead of the trees. For him, a float every couple of months resets his ability to think deeply.

This lucid dreaming state allows him to consciously control his thought process, which is hard to do on a day-to-day basis. There are different ways to achieve this “flow state” like flying planes or running, where focus on the task at hand frees the brain to process ideas in the background. The lesson for agency owners is that you need intentional “out of the weeds” time. Whether it’s floating, running, or flying, find your version of the float tank.

Should We Be Worried About AI?

Where is AI really going, and should agencies be worried? Josh approaches the subject with cautious optimism. He admits there are possible negative outcomes—whole essays have been written about the risks—but he believes society still has control of its destiny. Governance, adaptation, and human ingenuity will help us navigate the “intelligence explosion” ahead.

For agency owners, that perspective matters. The fear-driven narrative (“AI will replace us all”) misses the more useful question: how do we adapt to stay ahead? Josh’s view is that AI will become a force multiplier, but only for those who deeply understand their craft first. At Coframe, he leads his team with the mantra: “first we are artisans, then we are automators.”

Josh encourages his team to master processes as humans before trying to automate them. An artisan, he says, is someone who not only performs a task with taste and skill but can also teach it to an apprentice. If you can teach it, you can usually train AI to do it too.

This is a powerful framework for agencies. Too many people treat AI as a magic shortcut, asking it to “do the thing” without knowing what “the thing” really requires. But if you’ve built the human expertise first, AI becomes like a hyper-capable apprentice, great at code generation, design variations, or crunching vast amounts of data, but still lacking the higher-level strategy and creative ideation that only humans can bring.

Why the Human Element Still Wins

Lots of people are already trying to launch “AI-only agencies.” This is a mistake. Clients don’t just want data or deliverables; they want connection, guidance, and trust. Even as AI accelerates execution, the human side, like the ability to understand a client, guide their decisions, and translate insights into strategy, remains irreplaceable.

This is especially true when clients don’t know what to ask. Tools may say, “Ask me anything,” but most business owners don’t even know where to start. That’s where the agency earns its keep: by framing the right questions and then leveraging AI to deliver smarter, faster answers.

AI Limitations on Emotion and Empathy

Empathy remains the most valuable and, so far, irreplaceable element that AI cannot afford clients, and where human intervention continues to be necessary. However, as these models get more and more aligned, clients are starting to see cases where the AI is able to show empathy for your situation. For instance, Jason recently tested AI with his own medical challenges. After foot surgery complications, he uploaded photos of his wound to an AI tool and was surprised at how sympathetic the responses felt. It wasn’t just giving data—it was offering encouragement, warnings, and even emergency advice when he tested it with old images.

Josh had his own example: experimenting with fasting while using AI to predict weight loss. The model gave estimates but also warned him about the risks and refused to encourage unsafe behavior. Modern models are being trained not just for accuracy but to reflect human values, to ensure they’re aligned with human interests.

Balancing AI Alignment With Performance

This fine-tuning process with newer AI models makes them more positive and empathetic. But there’s a trade-off: aligned models can lose some raw performance on benchmarks.

For agencies, this means two things:

• AI tools will continue evolving in personality and usefulness.

• The best results will still come from humans who know how to wield them—pairing empathy, strategy, and creativity with AI’s speed and scale.

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