So essentially that they've kind of been preparing for this. Right.

I mean, yes, absolutely. There's been a lot of talk about Trump-proofing NATO, Trump-proofing various other forms of the transatlantic alliance and Western ties. And on NATO, yes, it does seem that Trump would never accept a future, say, with Ukraine joining the NATO alliance. But it also was quite clear that the Biden administration itself was skeptical about giving Ukraine NATO membership as well. So there is a degree of continuity that we're kind of missing here when we talk about Trump as this disruptive figure who's going to smash through all these institutions. He is a very disruptive figure. That's absolutely true. His rhetoric is very radical and polarizing. But on some fronts, you may actually see a degree of continuity that is at this moment kind of understated. But of course, it should be stressed that the Biden administration was quite effective in galvanizing a kind of Western solidarity and unity around Ukraine. And Trump coming back to the White House is almost immediately going to chip away at the edifice of that unity.

After the break, Martine and Ishan talk about what Trump's foreign policy might look like for another conflict, the war in Gaza. We'll be right back. This episode is supported by Rocket Money. Can you name every single subscription you have? I know I can't name all of mine, and I'm not alone. I just learned that over 74% of people have subscriptions they've forgotten about that are costing them money every month. With Rocket Money, I don't have to remember every subscription or worry about forgetting any, because I can see them all laid out right in front of me. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use, cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com/reports. That's rocketmoney.com/reports. rocketmoney.com/reports.