Encouraging Participation for Meaningful Change through Projects

In this episode, Alina Gutierrez reflects on her childhood passion for art, her work as a banker, and how her banking experience led to her career in graphic facilitation.

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Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Alina Gutierrez
• Origin Story
• Alina's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Alina
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Alina's Website
• Alina on Instragram
• Alina on Facebook
• Online Course - Let me Draw What I Mean
• Unflattening By Nick Sousanis

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Crayola Markers
• Sharpie Markers
• Neuland Markers
• Uni Posca Paint Markers
• DeSerres Marker Pens
• Neuland GraphicWally
• DeSerres Thick Plain Paper

Tips

1. Push yourself to try something new so it doesn't become boring.
2. The more people are engaged with creating the visuals, the more impact it has on them.
3. Give yourself grace if you are starting. Don't compare yourself with those who started way before you did.
4. Give yourself realistic goals.
5. Listen to a TED Talk or a podcast to try taking live notes.
6. Challenge yourself to add new icons as you progress.
7. Look for something you're not an expert in and take visual notes of that.
8. Leave your comfort zone and get exposed to different tools.
9. Find inspiration from other artist's work.
10. Just do the first line, even if it means signing your piece before you get started.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

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Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everybody, it's Mike, and I'm here with Alina Gutierrez from Visual Versa. Alina, it's so good to have you. Thanks for being on the show.

Alina Gutierrez: Thank you. I'm super excited to be here.

MR: Yeah, me too. You were a recommendation from my friend Alejo Porras, who has been on the show in the past, and he's coming back again this season because so much has changed in his world, but he highly recommended you, and I'm always looking for new, interesting people, and you fit that perfectly. So why don't you tell us a little about who you are and what you do?

AG: Perfect. Thank you. That's such a simple question, yet complex answer.

MR: Sure.

AG: So who am I? I am a mom, wife, friend, lots of roles. I like starting with that because I think beyond whatever we do, we're all humans and have a personal life outside what we do. I have two little boys, seven and eight. I'm originally from Columbia, but I've been in Canada, oof. I lost count, I think since 2007, around those dates.

I am the founder of Visual Versa. I've been working for a little bit over 10 years, bringing color and visual notes to organizations. Well, there's a little bit of everything because I have a background all over the place. I think through Visual Versa, I found a way to merge all those passion and all that experience that I've had gained. I don't know if I answer.

MR: It sounds like you're kind of a generalist, I would say. You have lots of skills and you find ways to weave them together. Maybe that's a way to say it, I guess.

AG: I love that. Yes.

MR: Yeah, there you go. You can steal that if you want to.

AG: I like it. Thank you. I'll be stealing it. Yeah.

MR: Well, you hinted at it, but I'm really curious, I'm always curious for every guest, but especially in this case with you, how you ended up in this place. It sounds like you had lots of interests and lots of things happening, and yet you found this way to weave them together or find a place to weave them together. I suspect there were things you did in the past where you couldn't do the other things.

Like you had to focus on one thing and maybe you're frustrated, or. Tell us that story, go all the way back to even when you were a little girl. Were there things that you did as a little girl that you see now the thread tying you to the present?

AG: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was actually having a conversation with my parents not too long ago, and they were like, "We're not surprised you're doing what you're doing right now." I used to paint everywhere. I was the one who did a mural in my room and painted my jackets and painted on my backpack, whatever. You name it, I have painted on it. I was blessed enough to have a family that allowed me to do that. But I also had, I would say, this duality between that rational side of me and the artistic side, I think a lot of it came from my background.

You know, back home, the opportunities or the amounts of jobs available were not as many back then. Right now, I think there's a lot of stuff going on, and there's actually a lot of people doing sketch notes back home and really good people. But I felt that I had to go for a more secure career. When it came to the time where I had to design what, I wanted to do, I went into a program called design Engineering. It had that design aspect of it, the creativity, but it had the engineering title that kind of had that recognition. So social recognition.

Back in high school, I was the one who painted doors for every single party or whatever we were celebrating. I was part of a musical actually in my hometown. I used to sing and act. Then I got to university, and despite the design part of the program, there was a lot of calculus and physics and all that kind of stuff.

I've been kind of a perfectionist my whole life so I wanted to excel, but I had to put a lot effort into it. I realized by now, but then looking back, it's like sometimes when you have to push that more effort, things do not come natural to you maybe that's not your place. It doesn't mean that you cannot do it. If you put yourself to it, you can. But, you know, all the creative part of it used to come so natural to me.

Then there was this opportunity to do exchange program in Quebec. So I applied to university and the way it worked, it was a agreement between governments, so I could come here and do a semester or a year of my program and some students would go there. I had to pay for my expenses, but I didn't have to pay for the university.

I applied to Concordia University. I got accepted. Then when I got my acceptance letter, they said, "The only thing is we don't have the same program here, so you have to either go into fine arts or the engineering department." I was like, "Ta-da." I was so excited. Scared but excited. So I said, "I wanna go into fine arts." And you know, that self-doubt of like, "Oh, maybe I don't have what it takes because these people that are doing all plain arts and I haven't done that much."

But I submitted my portfolio, got accepted and came to Montreal. After I got here, I kept extending my stay, extending, extending. I was like, "Oh, I like it. I'm gonna finish my program and then go back home." Then I graduated. In Canada, when you graduate as an international student, they give you a work permit. And I was like, "No, I need to get work experience here and then go back home with that in my CV." Long story short, I ended up staying. I met someone and it's been way too long and I'm still here. I'm getting to your question.

MR: Oh, this is all part of the question. You're doing excellent. Keep going.

AG: Okay. I then graduated and I had to find a job because part of the rule is they give you a work permit, then you have to find a job within a timeline. I found a job. It was hard for me to find a job because you had to speak English and French for most job openings, and I didn't speak French back then. I found something, I was not too happy then found a job at a bank, you figure.

They hire me. They were like, "We don't care, you don't have that background. We'll train you in the background, but you like dealing with people, you're good at customer service, you're good." I worked at a bank for three years and it got to the day where my boss was like, "Okay, we need to do something about your background so you can keep advancing at the bank. I need you to go back to school and do a program in business or HR, whatever it is but it's a little bit more aligned with the bank than fine arts." And I was like, "Sure. Fair enough."

I went back to school and I couldn't keep up with classes, I couldn't keep up with my notes. I started doing a program in organizational psychology or change management type of thing. It was really text heavy, the things were complicated. And then I started getting sketchbooks instead of the traditional lined book and I would do mind maps. I would get stuck like, "I dunno how to write that word." Then every time that I didn't know how to write that word, I would doodle it and keep going.

MR: Ah, okay.

AG: Then during my second year one prof came to me and she was like, "Alina, do you do graphic facilitation?" And I was like, "Wait, I do, what is that?"

MR: What's that?

AG: "What is that?" She said, "Graphic facilitation." And I'm like, "Well, it has the word graphic in it, so it sounds cool, but I have no idea what that is." She was like, "Okay, you should look into it." I was like, "Sure." And I remember that night, like it was yesterday, I came home and I googled "graphic facilitation." Then I started looking at people doing these big drawings in front of people, And I was like, "People get paid to do that? That is such a cool job. that's what I wanna do."

Then I started looking into courses, you know, that academic side of me, I have to get trained. I have to get something so I can start. I took a two-day course here in Montreal of graphic facilitation. Then, you know, my classmates and the profs started seeing what I was doing, and they were like, "Why don't you come in front of the class and take notes?" The professor would explain something, I would like doodle and then at the end of the class, people would take pictures.

And I was like, there's something in here. Initially, I thought it was like, oh, this is something that helps me because I'm studying my second language. I'm doing a program in a second language. But then I realized that even people from here who were studying their native tongue were like, "That's really cool. Can I take pictures of your notes to study for the papers or to write the papers? And I was like, "Cool. Yeah, take pictures."

Then the university was doing events and I started volunteering myself, and I would do it in exchange for material. I was like, "Hey, I need to get these markers that are super expensive. Can you buy three or four of those markers and then I'll take visual notes at your event." And they were like, "Sure." Or, "Can you get me paper and whatever." Then I started getting exposure and practice 'cause now I look at the first visual notes that I took, and I'm like, "I can't believe someone let me do that."

MR: Same for me too. When I look back at the first sketch and I was like, "What was I thinking?"

AG: What was I thinking? And I'm like how come I was not even shy to go in front of people and do that, but I'm grateful. I'm really grateful because that's the way it started. Then I realized there was a career in it, and because my background is in workshop design and facilitation and strategic sessions, then I do that as well, but I bring that creative aspect.

So it doesn't matter what type of workshop I'm designing, it doesn't matter what type of a strategic session or whatever I'm doing, there's always doodles or images or visual metaphors or whatever it is involved in the planning and delivery of these workshops. I always bring that aspect into my work.

MR: Interesting. Well, it's interesting because you say that you're doing this now, but you were going to school for change management. Was there a shift somewhere that you made a change? Because obviously, you were now excited about this graphic facilitation you discovered, but you obviously were not going in that direction. So how did you manage that with the bank? That sounds like a whole story in itself, huh?

AG: Yes. That could be another episode, but let me try to make it short. Okay, I'm bad at answering short. I always go on and tell a long story. Long story short, I gave myself a deadline. I had a year left to finish my program. I asked for a leave at the bank and I said, "Okay, I have what it takes for me to leave for a year and see what happens.

So if from now in a year I see I can make this my full-time job, I'll quit the bank and if I can't, then I'll go back." You know, no harm. I gave it a try at least, right. I gave myself year, and by the end of the year, I had enough to be able to take the risk and then I quit the bank and started doing this full time.

MR: Pretty smart way to approach it.

AG: I always have like, yeah, I need to—I go with the flow, I adapt, but at the same time, I always need like my plan A, B, and C because I know things don't always work the way we want it, but yeah.

MR: So then you proved that you could do it for a year, that it was something you could survive with. I assume then that that's probably when you started doing this other schooling or education, it sounds like, for what you were talking about around facilitation and meeting plan—or I guess I'll let you describe it because I don't know exactly what that focus was.

AG: That's fine. That was actually part of the program I was doing when I discovered visual notes.

MR: Ah, okay.

AG: Yeah, it's a program where we talked a lot about creating containers for people, facilitating spaces so people can have the conversation. I'm not the expert in whatever topic they're gonna talk about, which I think is pretty aligned with graphic facilitation. Sometimes I'm taking visual notes for the pharmaceutical or a non-for-profit, you know, organization. And they're like, "Oh, so you just work with these types of organizations?" I'm like, "No." "So how do you understand what we're talking about?" I'm like, "I don't really understand the whole—I don't understand every little detail, but I understand what you're talking about.

I mean, there's always the option of putting a post-it on with a word that I didn't understand and going and asking people, but we don't need to be the experts in their topic. I actually think it gives a nice, fresh perspective because from an outsider perspective, we get to ask different questions. And with facilitation is like that. So it was part of the program.

MR: Cool.

AG: I was doing it with the goal in mind of going back to the bank and hopefully going into HR, because I loved training and development. And then, you know, I ended up doing training and development, but on my own.

MR: In a different way. Yeah. Interesting.

AG: Yeah, and—

MR: One question about when you did that one year, was there one client or project that made you say, "Okay, I can do this?" Was it that, or was it more like, there were a lot of clients that said, "Okay, I think I can make this work." How that go in that year between?

AG: Yes, it was more about multiple clients than one client, but it was also the idea of—I started seeing the ripple effect that you could create. It was something innovative enough or different enough for me to most of the time leave each event with at least one potential client. At least. I would say at least, because most of the time you leave with like two or three referrals and sometimes even down the line, you get more especially in conferences where you get people from different organizations.

So it's not the same if I do any strategic planning where it's like an internal group. Yes, I might get referrals to other departments, but I don't get as much triple effect on when I go into a conference of like, I don't know, real estate agents or you know, a conference on non-for-profit organizations that are working mental health. But in one meeting or in one conference, I might get access to 60 different organizations or more. That's where I started seeing, okay, you know, this is creating a pipeline good enough for me to see the potential and take a risk and give it a try.

MR: Cool. So then now we'll pick up again. You've done the year, you've decided that this is the way you're gonna go, you quit the bank, so what happens next?

AG: It's really scary.

MR: I would guess so, yeah.

AG: Yeah. Then you quit the bank and, you know, it was really comfortable to get a paycheck every two weeks. Then I realized that, you know, there's months where I was making three or four times what I was making at the bank, and then months where I was making $0. It gets way better as the years move. There's also a cycle throughout the year and you learn to deal with it. So I know most of the time, January is a quiet month, but then I take that month to reach out to clients, do a lot of admin work, prepare things.

I have now my online aspect to my business so I have like an online course and an eBook and all that kind of stuff. So I know that during January I can take that time without the anxiety of nothing is coming. It's normal that nothing is coming. I kind of started seeing the cycle, but what happened once with the bank was, I started reaching to people, reaching out to people I knew or looking for events in the city and reaching out to the events, being like, "This is what I do."

The difference is that right now, I would say, one out of two people, I tell them, I take visual notes and they're like, "That's really cool." And the other person would be like, "You do what?" But back then, two out of two people were like, "You do what?" So it was really hard to explain. And I found myself in that reality that it was like, okay, it was really easy for me to get referrals out of an event where people saw what I did. And It was not as easy to reach out to people and be like, "Look, this is what I do and these are the benefits."

Obviously, it's way easier for me 10 years later to explain the benefits than back then. So I got into a rollercoaster. It had its ups and downs and, you know, moments where I was like, "What am I doing? I'm gonna look for a full-time job again." Then other moments where I was like, "This is amazing." You know. I think I learned a little bit to deal with that rollercoaster and appreciate the highs and be prepared for the lows because as an entrepreneur, that always happens.

MR: Yeah. I don't know your language skills in French, but I think one advantage you hold is you understa`11nd Spanish English. And I assume by now some degree of French, I don't know how much. That could be really valuable in that environment and Quebec especially, right. Because there's probably multiple languages probably being spoken and that would set you apart, I suspect.

AG: Absolutely. Yes. I mean, it's also shown me a different part that I didn't realize at the beginning, but a different part of this amazing tool. It's how we can make information accessible even during an event, especially in Quebec, a reality is most events have to deal with actual duality, the bilingualism. And there's not always a translator right there. Sometimes people are presenting in English and switch to French. I've done it where if the person is presenting in English, I take visual notes in French, and if they're presenting in French, I take visual notes in English.

MR: Interesting.

I had people come and see me at the end and be like every time I didn't understand what was going going on, I would turn and look at your notes and be like, "Oh, okay, they're talking about this." They might not get the full detailed thing, but at least they had an idea of what was going on. Every time they got lost, they could look at the notes and be like, "Oh, okay, this is where we're going." So it's been a nice experience. Obviously being me, I was like, there's something in there.

So let's add another layer to my story. I started my PhD, about some years ago, longer than I would like to say because it's taken way too long, but I was like, you know what? There's a lot of people saying, look, this works and this is what it is. And because of my personal experience, but there's not a lot of research behind it. There is some, but not as much. And I was like, I wanna start getting into that. Into how we can make communication more accessible. How we could use these types of tools to work.

'Cause the reality nowadays is that in most teams, you have someone like me who's working in their second or third language. And even if we have a good level of understanding and speaking, sometimes it—well, even when we're speaking our mother tongue, we have misunderstandings. Communication is hard.

And adding this thing where like, I could doodle as I'm explaining things and we can have a conversation and make sure that literally we're on the same page, and we're like, "Oh, no, this is not what I had in mind." Or like, "Oh, what about if we move this line here?" We don't go on and each work on our projects and realize we were on different pages and didn't realize it. So I was like I wanna look into that. So, yeah, I started doing a PhD and I'm researching the effect of using visual tools to facilitate change in organizations and communities.

MR: Wow. That's really cool. When you finish the PhD, do you have plans to include, I assume, imagery to convey and communicate your points?

AG: Yes. That's the idea. I mean writing papers in English is not easy at all for me. I am lucky enough to have a committee that they're super open to innovative ideas. I think thanks to that I've been able to get to the point where I'm at. I should have been finished by now, but in between, you know, starting the PhD and now I had my second baby and there was COVID and there's been all kinds of stuff that we don't plan for it.

So it's been taking way longer, but it's still something that informs my practice and my practice informs my research. And I like that way of being able to bring things from one side to the other. It's also giving me tools to teach because I love teaching, but I don't have a background in teaching.Facilitation and teaching, I think they have tools they share and principles they share. But it is giving me a little bit of tools and resources for me to do a better job when I'm trying to teach this tool to others.

MR: Well, there's two thoughts around that. One is for English speakers, writing papers and PhDs is not easy in English. So, I mean, you don't feel too bad about that. It's tough all around, right. But I'm sure there's probably challenges you face that may be a native English speaker might not.

The second thing I was gonna mention is a book my friend Nick Sousanis wrote, he was on the show many, many seasons ago, and it's a book called Unflattening. You can look that up. And anybody who's listening look up Unflattening. It is a graphic novel that he submitted as his PhD paper explaining why graphic novels are a superior form of communication for idea.

AG: Awesome.

MR: My thought is—

AG: I'm not only gonna look at the book, I'm gonna reach out.

MR: Yeah. I can make that connection with you, if you like and talk to Nick. I think it would be really interesting for you to see, even if you just see photos of it, but you could certainly order a copy of it and see how he did it.

AG: I'll absolutely do that.

MR: Right. Because that might inspire you when you submit your PhD, maybe you can bring to your committee like, "Hey, I wanna make it, maybe not to this degree." 'Cause the whole thing is a comic book, right? His focus is on graphic novels and comics as a communication device. So very possibly you could, you know, take ideas from it but make your PhD paper much more visual than maybe anybody would expect, and that could advantage you know, what you're trying to do.

AG: And that's the idea. I mean, I don't wanna do—and I tend to fall into that trap sometimes that if I'm talking about visuals, I don't wanna have something really text heavy. I know it's academic and I still have to have that research part, but a big part of it, I think can be visual. I've had that conversation with my supervisor, and now when you asked me about my story, I forgot, and it's actually during high school, there was a way that I got out of a paper, a philosophy paper saying I wanted to do visuals to represent that. And I negotiated with the teacher, and I ended up giving him a booklet with drawings instead of doing a paper and actually one exam.

I did the same through my master's program with the prof that is now my supervisor, where I was like, "I'm so tired of writing papers. It takes so much energy." And I think I spent like double the time doing this booklet, but I had so much fun and add to today, years later, I could still talk to the topic, which doesn't happen with the tons of paper I wrote, the part.

MR: Yeah. Yeah. It's so cool.

AG: So that's the idea. I don't know how far they'll let me go with it, but I'm like, "Yes, my thesis is gonna be image heavy, not text heavy."

MR: Sounds like you're a negotiator already. So you'll probably find a way to negotiate something, right?

AG: Yes.

MR: And, you know, find a way to make everybody happy. But yeah, that's really interesting. And so now you're doing this full time, it sounds like it can be a rollercoaster at times, which being independent can often be. Tell me about a project that you're working on or maybe something you just finished that you can share that got you excited that you can tell us about, and then we can see like, okay, here's how all the things that you're interested in fit together in a project.

AG: I actually just finished working with a client and I worked with them for several years. The name of the organization is One Drop. If you haven't heard about it, go and look it up. It's an amazing organization. It was created by Guy Laliberte'. He's the same founder of Cirque du Soleil. So it is a non-for-profit. They work in different countries. They work in India, south America, here up north, in Africa.

Anyways, they have tons of projects. Most of the projects that I was working with them were the ones in Latin America. So it's a project called Lazos de Agua , and they bring clean water to underprivileged communities. But then what they realized obviously is—this was founded by Guy Laliberte, it had to have that creative side of it.

They were like, "A lot of times we spent tons of money in the infrastructure of these projects, we bring clean water to the communities, and then it happens that people are not using it because sometimes they have to walk." It's still a distance to do it, but it's because there's a behavior change included, right?

If you were used to walking to the river, meeting all people from the community, grabbing water there, or washing your clothes, it's not the same. There is a component of these projects that is behavior change. You have to create that awareness in the community. So they used an approach that is called Social Art for behavior change, where they use art to work with the communities as, you know, a parallel approach.

While there's people working in the infrastructure, there is this amazing team of people working with the communities in behavior change, and they work with people from the community. So it's initiatives and art that comes from the community. They use actually local art to do different things.

I work with them in—it was so nice because I found one organization where I could actually use all my skills. Sometimes I would facilitate sessions, sometimes I design interventions, sometimes I was designing visual tools that they would use when they would go and meet with the community. I actually helped them design and facilitate a big event that happened to celebrate the anniversary of the program in Mexico last year.

It was an organization with which I could use all my facets and experiences. They also work in English, French, and Spanish. When I got there, I was like, "Oh my goodness, this place was created for me." It was so good. I could be part of different projects and take different hats. I realized, with them, it was the first time that I actually started using visual tools and visual notes as a tool for behavior change. And that part, I had not experienced that before.

And it got me into another road where I started learning a lot on how to do it and how to involve with the community. It's not like they go and they have an intervention and it's ready and it's done. They go, they work with the community, they get people from the community to facilitate, to co-design, to co-create. Everything is done together. It was such an amazing experience throughout. I learned a lot.

MR: Well, that's pretty cool because then I would imagine if the people who co-create, it's more likely they will adopt. So if it's their choice or they have a hand in, "Hey, we're not going to the river anymore, we're going to the well, right?" They would say, "Well, what things do we do with the river? Well, we wash our clothes, we probably chat, we gossip. So how do we relocate that stuff to another place?" And I'm sure you've facilitated all that kind of change with them. That's pretty cool. That sounds really like a fun project.

AG: The tons of projects throughout the pandemic also working with the handwashing behavior and soap and they even went the extra mile on like, "Okay, we're gonna create the capacity within the community." There are communities that didn't have access to local soap, you know, they would have. So, okay, let's you know, inject some capital in the community so someone could start a business and do soap and sell soap."

You know, so it's like this whole chain we're thinking about the different components and kind of addressing them. Yeah, it was such a cool experience to have and to see how we're using a tool to create meaningful change.

MR: That sounds really great. Thanks for sharing that project.

AG: My pleasure.

MR: Well, so let's shift now to tools. We're always curious here on the show, what kind of tools you like. I don't know if you use digital, but we typically do analog tools, and then digital tools, mainly because everybody says iPad Pro, pencil, and Procreate, which is incredibly boring. And there's often so many fun, you know, pens and markers and paints and things that people use that maybe are unexpected. So I would love to hear, like, when you do your graphic facilitation or anything, where you use regularly. Tell us about the kind of tools you use and then you can do the digital stuff at the end if you like.

AG: Yeah. The digital stuff. I'm gonna be boring.

MR: Like most people.

AG: Let's go into the analog. Look, I'm all over the place and I like saying this because obviously I love Neuland. I love the fact that you can refill the markers. I love everything about that brand. I have their board, and I love them. But they're an investment. It's something that I did once I was into this for a while and I could do that investment, but I literally use Crayola markers with in my workshop side, right?

I tell people, "You can get started with that." I got started with Ome DeSerres, it's like a local art store here. They have their home brand. They're super affordable and they're amazing markers. The only thing is that I realized every three months I needed to buy new markers, which it hasn't happened to me since I got Neuland. I can't even say the name. I should know. So I'm all over the place. I use Crayola, I use Sharpie, I use local brands, well, for my workshops, and when it's me taking my visual notes, I use Neuland.

MR: Okay. Got it. Are you someone who experiments? Do you go to the art store and like, "Ooh, that would be interesting to try," and you pick things up or you like that?

AG: Yes.

MR: Okay. That's me too.

AG: I love that. And I love finding clients who are upto, you know. So like I started using postcard or I don't know, acrylic markers not too long ago. I got them and they have amazing colors, like really bright colors. I Told the client, I'm like, you know, "It's gonna be different. Is it okay if I give it a try?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give it a try."

I think it's one of the most colorful graphic recordings I've done. I loved it. I try even with acrylic when it's something that is like a long event or when I could prepare some graphics ahead of time. I've done, if I prepare things, because sometimes I come with posters that are already illustrated for people to fill in with the ideas. And then in there I've tried everything. Ink you know, acrylics, you name it. Pastels.

I use pastels a lot too especially with people that are starting when I'm teaching them, I show them things they can do with pastels that is not complicated, doesn't take a lot of time, but it brings a little bit of a colorful effect to your graphics. So they look like you did it really fast, but it's just because it's easy to just spread the pastel around and give a little bit of shadow or highlight to whatever you're drawing.

MR: Interesting. It's interesting that going back to when you were a little girl and you painted everything, that you found a way to incorporate Pastel markers and paint markers into that process. So it's sort of its full circle, right? In some way.

AG: Absolutely. It might sound weird, but I love getting my hands dirty. At the end of a job when my hands are full of colors, it gives me this sense of like, "Oh, you did something really cool today." It's like that. I think like it connects with that, you know inner child of like I was able to get dirty and do colorful stuff, and it's always fun.

MR: You're really in there, right? You're in there doing it. Your hands are dirty.

AG: Yeah.

MR: I think that—

AG: Yeah, exactly. Like barely.

MR: What about paper and notebooks and those kind of things? Sounds like you like large scale, but do you work with any notebooks? Do you do any personal stuff in notebooks or sheets of paper, anything like that you can share?

AG: I do, yes. I have all kinds of sketchbooks. I have them all. I have yours. I love it. For me, it's more about having thick paper that I know I can—I don't know, somehow it bothers me if I draw with a marker and then you can see it on the other side because it's like then I cannot use both sides of the paper.

MR: Yeah. Yeah.

AG: So I love thick, good quality paper when it comes to taking visual notes. But even for my day-to-Day stuf, I have my own notebooks. Visual Versa, has a line of notebooks.

MR: Nice.

AG: Even for the day-to-day things, obviously they have good quality paper because I'm all about that, but they're not as thick. But I'm using Neuland fine one. Even if I have a meeting with a client or whatever, I'm always taking notes and my notes are never linear. I can't go back.

MR: Yeah.

AG: I guess I'm not being super helpful because I use anything that has no lines.

MR: Okay. So clean paper.

AG: Yeah.

MR: Thick paper. Clean and thick.

AG: Yes. Absolutely.

MR: Now, what about your large scale, do you have a supplier of large scale thick paper that you like to use that you can stick on a wall and, you know, the markers aren't gonna bleed through to the back?

AG: Oh, yeah. That was a good experience to get because, you know, before I had my own board that I could bring everywhere, there was that struggle of like, "Are you sure that, you know, the markers are not gonna go to the wall." Then I used double paper and it's such a waste of paper until I found, but it's a local store that sells roll of paper. I'm always scared they're gonna stop selling them. So I always buy like five rolls or 10 rolls in advance just in case because it was not easy to find one.

I have my rolls there to make sure that if, you know, one day they tell me we don't sell them anymore because I'm pretty sure not a lot of people buy those papers, I'm like, well, "At least I'll have a little bit of time, a cushion there to find another provider that is good. They're called Omer DeSerres. It's a local, it is the same that I mentioned for the markers. They have their markers as well.

MR: Yeah. We'll have to have you send some links so if someone's in Quebec or in Canada, they can get access.

AG: Absolutely. Yeah.

MR: I suppose they might sell internationally to the U.S., but then you'll really pay for it in shipping, I suspect, or VAT or something like that.

AG: Yeah. But I mean, for the paper, it might be worth it. It is really good quality paper and I've looked around always to have a plan B. I always have like having the plan B, but I haven't found something as good on, you know, price quality. You know because it's not extremely expensive for the quality they have.

MR: Do you have a standard size and you cut it and then you bring rolls and then stick 'em on the wall? Or do you have a board that you mount those to? How does that part of it work for you?

AG: Yeah, so I have the modular board. Depending on how long the event is, sometimes I use my four modules, which is like pretty big. And sometimes I just use two. So I use two or three or four. Most of the time, I—no, I think I've never used one. For a half day event, normally I would use just two panels, and then full day, depending on how packed the schedule is, I use three or four panels. I always bring my roll with me and, you know, cut depending on—

MR: What you need.

AG: - on what I need. Exactly. Yeah.

MR: Is that the Neuland graphic wall? Is that what it's called?

AG: Yes.

MR: I know there's two products, and I hadn't realized this, so I talked to somebody else. So the graphic wall is for this like graphic recorders large scale, but there's a smaller scale thing called GraphicWally, which is like a little brother, right?

AG: Wally, exactly.

MR: It's got a roll of paper and you bring it across and you can do the same thing, but on a small scale. And I think they even probably imagine like you would put a camera on it, right. So if you're working remotely, you could show it this way, right?

AG: Yeah.

MR: Interesting.

AG: I don't have the GraphicWally. That's on my wishlist.

MR: Yeah. Yeah.

AG: But the wall, yes. And I've had it for nine years now, and it's still working great. And it's light because, you know moving the stuff that size could be really hard. And it's not hard at all. And it avoids the problem. A lot of times I would get to a building and they were like, "Oh no, this building, we don't allow anything on the wall." Then, you know, you had the struggle of, it doesn't matter how many times you ask the clients, they're like, "Yeah, yeah, no problem." Then you get there, "No, you can't." I actually did one a whole day of visual notes on the floor.

MR: Oh man.

AG: Which was a really interesting experience, but, you know—

MR: Kind of crawling around.

AG: - kind of like going back to your childhood, it's like you're doing things. At the end, I embraced it and I made people step on different icons depending on what it was. It ended up being a really cool experience. And I actually have a picture of it that I use on my website because it seems like a really—well, it was a really creative moment.

MR: Yeah.

AG: People were literally stepping on the words and the things to vote for things. It was cool, but at the moment it was like, "Oh my goodness, what am I gonna do? You know, I'm already here, I have my materials, we're about to start, you know, let's figure something out." Now I don't have to go through that. I have my board.

MR: And you have your wall. Yeah.

AG: Yeah. And it's flexible enough that if the space is not big, sometimes what I do, even if it's a full day event, I just use two panels and then sometimes have two posters. So one for the morning and one for the afternoon.

MR: I see.

AG: Yeah.

MR: Smart, smart. Cool. That's really good. We'll make sure we get links to all these products that we can find with Alina and me.

AG: Absolutely.

MR: I'm sure we can do that. And Esther who does our show notes, loves to dig for this stuff. So we'll get that in the show notes for you. Let's shift now to tips. So the way I like to frame it for guests is imagine someone's listening, they're a visual thinker of some kind, but maybe they've reached a plateau or they just need a little inspiration or a pick me up. What would be three things you would tell them to encourage them in their practice to keep on going and to keep striving?

AG: So the first thing that I always tell people is, and I think it applies to everything, but it applies to visual notes, is it doesn't matter in which part of this process you are, push yourself a little bit to try something new so it doesn't become boring. There's always that thing of like, if you're—I tell people if you're scar it's because you care. But it's also like, if you're not scared, if you feel so confident, it's like you're not pushing yourself enough.

In my case for example, it's like trying new medium or you know, pushing myself to try new icons, try new ways to engage with the audience. So, you know, like in whatever facet this comes, like if you're a really experienced graphic facilitator, then I will invite you to put yourself to find different ways to engage with the audience.

Because I found throughout the years that the more people are engaged with the creation of the visual, the more impact it has with the group. It's not the same thing when I'm that silent partner in the corner that people just see at the end and they're like, "Oh, wow, really cool." And that's it. Let's, you know, move past that. Then when they're part of this co-creation, they're actually feeding you ideas.

And then at the end, they see their ideas with illustrations and they're like, "Oh, I just said that. Look there's a drawing of what I said?" And they get super excited and there's way more by eating. I actually just visit a client who I did in a strategic session for eight years ago, and they had my poster on the wall. And I was like, "Wow." And she's like, it's so amazing because this poster happened when the initiative didn't exist.

They were brainstorming about it. Now, they're a full department, and they take grants and they help students with innovation projects. And they're like, "That was our first session when we dream about, like, it was our dream that all this stuff would happen." And now it's happening.

MR: Now it's real. Yeah.

AG: And they still have that poster there.

MR: Wow.

AG: But they were engaged throughout the session, right? Like, they were coming to me, they were giving post-Its, they were like saying—so, you know, engage people. If you're starting, then pushing yourself might mean, you know, well, you haven't tried taking live notes. And I think that's a scary step for anyone, is one thing, is taking notes for yourself, doing summaries or whatever. But, you know, no one is gonna look, like to see them, or also you don't have that time pressure.

When it comes to taking live notes, I think there's always that—you know, it's a big leap. But I would say, you know, they don't—well, first don't compare yourself with someone who's been doing it for 10 years. If I would've compared myself when I started with someone who was doing it 10 years, and I would've stopped because of that, I would not be doing what I'm doing right now.

MR: Right. Right.

AG: I knew what I could do and I was transparent with my clients, and I would say as far as you're using arrows and speech bubbles, you're already being more visual than most people. So I would say, you know, like, give yourself realistic goals. They're a little bit stretched, but they're not too far out so you're paralyzed and you don't do anything.

If you're not taking the live notes yet, then I tell people, you know, listen to a TED talk or listen to a podcast and take notes. And then you tell yourself, "This time I'm gonna have one icon." When it gets to the point that having just one icon in your notes is too easy, then you have two icons per podcast, then three, then four.

You know, it could be just an icon for the title, and the rest is a mind map with no more visuals, but you're already doing something more visual than you were doing before. So it's just taking those baby steps, but keep pushing it to the next level. That was like seven tips in one

MR: Well, Esther will have fun finding those tips and putting 'em in. So we'll make sure we capture those and number them for you. Everybody, and they'll also appear, of course, in our end of the season, All The Tips episode, so you can hear this all again with everybody else. So thank you for those steps.

AG: I'm so excited for the end of the season tips to see.

MR: A lot of people say that's their favorite episode. Yeah, it's a great one. I enjoy doing that.

AG: Is it okay if I add another tip to the—

MR: Go for it? Go for it.

AG: Okay. I would say try doing something or taking visual notes or whatever it is from something you've never experienced before. Let me explain that. Let's say you're in the tech industry, you know, try to do that, listening to someone talking about design—no, design thinking is good in the tech industry. Someone talking about, you know, human systems or facilitation or, you know, even medical innovation, whatever it is. Just look for something that you're not an expert in and take visual notes of that.

I love it because sometimes it is like, we're already comfortable—we're comfortable enough doing visual notes of whatever we know best, but it also—well, I would say it gives you the exposure to learn something new, which is always good for creativity. It's been proven again and again. It also shows you how much you don't have to be an expert of something to be able to take these visual notes.

So even going back to that person who's scared of taking live visual notes, doing that might help you build your confidence a little bit in the sense that, you know, you don't have to be an expert. You'll understand enough for you to be able to do a visual summary. And it's also because I think the more things and the more fields that we're exposed to, the more we start seeing how we can transfer one thing to a to another.

I think it's a good practice, and it's something that I push myself to do when I'm getting really comfortable in somewhere. So it goes back to living your comfort zone. But the being exposed, getting yourself exposed to different things and different tools and looking for inspiration. People are like, "Oh, I don't wanna copy anyone." You're not gonna copy. Even if you try, you can't do exactly the same thing. Your style is different.

But every time that I'm like, I feel I've been doing—I don't know, there's three or four posters that they look too similar, I start looking for other people in the field that are doing visual notes and see what they do that I'm not doing. So like, oh, maybe I'm always putting the title up, you know. My comfort zone is putting title top center.

And it's like, "Okay, you know what? Next time I'm gonna do title in the middle." And it's uncomfortable. And I get like, "Oh, like, ooh." You know, the first line is always the hardest. But try to do something that you haven't done before. That sometimes helps with the blockage in whatever sense that you're doing it, or just doing the first line. Sometimes I sign my poster before I start.

MR: Keeps it fresh.

AG: A blank paper is intimidating.

MR: Yeah.

AG: A blank piece of paper is really scary. And when I feel like stakes are high, sometimes I start staring at this and I'm like, "Why am I doing this again?" I get really nervous every single time before I start taking visual notes. And if I see that that nervousness is going to the next level, I'm like, you know what? I know doing that first line is the hardest. Once I get into it, I'm in my zone and I'm having fun. So even if that means signing your piece before I get it started, sign it. It's not blank anymore.

MR: Yep. You're committed.

AG: It's kind of like giving—yeah, you're committed. You're already started. Just jump and keep going.

MR: Those are great tips. Thank you, Alina. It's helpful to hear your perspective and more good inspiration for people who are doing this work to encourage them. So thank you.

AG: My pleasure.

MR: Let's talk now a little bit how we can find you. Your company is Visual Versa. What's the website we should go to? Are there social media that you hang out in? Any other projects that you wanna share here? We'll make sure again, that these get in the show notes, so if you're listening, you find the links.

AG: Absolutely. So visualversa.com is my website and then you can find me a—well, Instagram is the social media that I use the most. I also have Facebook, but it's more because I think I have to have it, but I don't go there often. So if you're gonna send me a message, definitely use Instagram and it's @visualversa.

And I also have my online offerings or my online course, it's called, Let me Draw What I Mean. Going back to that idea of, you know, I wanna teach people how to use these to explain their ideas and make their ideas more accessible to others. So Let me Draw What I Mean is more like the online side of it, but for events or organizations is Visual Versa.

MR: Okay. Got it. One is the educational arm and the other is the business are my guess.

AG: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Let me Draw What I Mean was born during the pandemic where we all had to reinvent ourselves.

MR: Yeah.

AG: And I realized how much I enjoyed it, and I kept it. And then Visual Versa was what got me started.

MR: Got it. Cool. We'll link those up for you. If you're in listening here, you can go to the show notes and find those links in the episode or on the website. Well, thank you, Alina. This has been really fun to talk with you. Thank you so much for the work you're doing. I so appreciate your positive influence in the world and fighting through challenges, coming from one country to another, changing jobs, learning multiple languages, and yet flourishing and making these things into who you are. I'm just so proud of you, and I wanted to let you know that. Thank you.

AG: Wow. Mike, that means so much coming from you. I think your book is the first book I got when I got into visual notes. I still have it. And, you know, like, just being here for me is such an honor because I've been following you for years and I've been inspired with the work you do. So it means a lot to me to be able to be here in this space having a conversation with you. So, thank you.

MR: Well, you've definitely deserved it. I'm excited and I'm excited to see what you'll do going forward. So thank you. Thank you for sharing your time with us.

AG: Thank you so much.

MR: All right, everyone, well, that's another episode of the Sketchnote Army podcast. For those who are listening or watching, until the next episode, talk to you soon.