So

I was initially thinking that both fighting and arguing are small sets of much larger spaces, and we should think about how they sit in those larger spaces. But hearing you say that, I'm also thinking that what you believe in clearly connotes something else than a thing you believe in. Because you don't want to argue for everything you believe in, or you don't want to fight about everything you believe in. So there's something being said about here that somehow there are special things you believe more than other things. And we're fighting or arguing would make more sense for those.

So first about the larger space, I'm interested in slogans and what we have slogans for. And I don't think we have slogans for all the various activities we might engage in with respect to our various goals. So it interests me that these both telegraph a certain ethos or a certain like value outlook. So let me just say what I think that value outlook is. But actually, before I say what that value outlook is, I should address your second question, which is you said, well, we don't want to fight for everything we believe in. So I think that the phrase believe in means something different from believe that. We use the phrase believe in to pick out a small subset of all the things of which it's true that we believe that they're true. Namely, ones that have something to do with value, ones that we're passionately invested in, ones that have a special importance to us. I'm not going to give you a really precise definition, but I think that the ordinary language use of that phrase already picks out the relevant territory. So as long as you fix on that phrase, believe in, and don't substitute the phrase, believe that it is going to be everything you believe in. But

that's why it's interesting to ask, what is it to believe in something rather than just believe it? Okay,

I agree. We can ask that question. But let me before we ask that question, let me just flesh out the two slogans, just so it becomes clear what territory they're in and how they're in slightly different territories. So the slogan that you should fight for what you believe in sort of takes place in the sphere of activism, the struggle against oppression and injustice, the injunction to protect people and animals and nature, but also to do things like promoting education and art and culture insofar as you can see those as causes where for the sake of those causes, you might want to oppose people who oppose or are indifferent to the causes. But also it applies to in cases where somebody would be just stand up for themselves right like against an attacker or somebody's threatening your right to exist that's a very popular phrase where the idea is that one of the things you can believe in is yourself or your right to exist or your right to live in a certain way and that's something that you might fight for as against somebody who is in some way denying it so that fight for what you believe in. Argue for what you believe in is a very different world. It's the world of free speech and open inquiry and intellectual culture and tolerance and open-mindedness and how the diversity of opinion is essential for democracy. And it is based on the conceit that your opponents would agree with you if you gave them a good argument. They're arguing in good faith. You should listen to them. You might be the one who's wrong. This slogan is one that's in the background. A lot of times when people lament cancel culture or the bad climate online for discussions in various online fora. Okay, so we could sort of sum up the first slogan. It kind of says, defeat your enemies. And the second slogan kind of says, listen to your enemies. And that brings out what I see as the tension between these two different slogans that where people believe both of them passionately and sort of feel happy to assert them. And to me, that experience is a lot like if you were to tell each of your two children that they're your favorite child only when the other one's not in the room. Okay, so tell me where you want to go with this. What do you want to go with looking into what believe in means? So

the first phrase just rings better in my head than the second one. I don't actually think I've ever heard anyone say the second phrase, fight, argue for what you believe in. They might say, you know, engage people, you know, discuss, inquire together. And so I'm not sure the phrase believe in actually is the relevant kind of category for that second slogan. You're substituting there maybe to show the contrast, but I do think people will say fight for what you believe in. And then the believe in concept is the relevant concept for that. But I'm not so sure believe in is the relevant concept for argue for things.

So I think you're right that the first one is more natural. But I do think so maybe I should rephrase the second one. But I do think that we think that people should be open to argument about things that they really care about, about on controversial topics, it's important that we have the hard conversations. And there's lots and lots of people who spend time just repeating that idea. And specifically on topics where there's something you passionately believe in, that's where we need to have the hard conversations. Those are the hard conversations, right? So if you shouldn't have those, there wouldn't be any hard conversations. The other conversations are easy. So I guess I just think we need to have the hard conversations, which is something people say all the time, is what I mean by you should argue for what you believe in.