Building a Publishing Future

How can you be successful at connecting with readers and selling books at live, in-person events? What are some practical tips as well as mindset shifts that can help you make the most of the opportunities? Mark Leslie Lefebvre shares his experience.

In the intro, Beventi for author events, Reader survey results [Written Word Media]; “How do I market myself without feeling gross about it?” [Author Stack]; 12 Concepts for Authors to Make $8333/Month; Results of AI training survey [Draft2Digital]; LionsGate partnering with RunWayML; Networking workshop [LSF]; Blood Vintage.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital. His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• What does “going wide” really mean?
• Benefits of in-person signings and events
• Always connect. The power of creating personal relationships with readers
• The different types of in-person events
• Using props to attract the right readers to your booth
• How to grow your email list and audience from in-person events
• The logistics of in-person events — payment systems and inventory
• Managing your energy when planning for and attending events
• Staying relaxed about changing technology and using it to your advantage

You can find Mark at MarkLeslie.ca.

Transcript of Interview with Mark Leslie LeFebvre

Joanna: Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital.

His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events. So welcome back to the show, Mark.

Mark: Always great to chat with you, Joanna.

Joanna: Oh, yes. Obviously many listeners might know you from author events or listen to your podcast, Stark Reflections. So you were last on the show in September 2021.

Mark: Has it been that long?

Joanna: Yes, it has been, which is crazy. You've been on the show lots over the years. We co-wrote The Relaxed Author together, and we're going to come back to that later. So it's been almost three years since you've been on the show—

Give us a bit of an update on your writing and publishing journey, as you've had some big milestones lately.

Mark: So I've continued to write in my Canadian Werewolf series. Book seven, Only Monsters in the Building, that was released earlier this year, 2024. I've got book eight planned for mid-2025.

So that's been fun because in 2021, I think, I had only had two or three books in that series. So I've continued to chug away at that. Only one book a year, just sort of standard speed.

I did release a co-authored book with D.F. Hart, Accounting for Authors, which is important because she's an MBA. That was a great co-authoring experience because she's really smart and knows everything about that. I took the role of the author who knows nothing about finances. That is kind of close to the truth, so it was an easy role to fill.

Then also, with D.F. Hart and Erin Wright and Susie O'Connell and Bradley Charbonneau—

We registered and founded a company, Wide for the Win.

It is like a long, slow build for this company. All of us are working collaboratively together, trying to leverage that movement into something that could help more authors in different ways. So that's like this long, slow thing where the company's not really earning money yet, it's breaking even, but we have these plans.

I mean, for example, sales of my book Wide for the Win, a portion of the sales goes and funds into the company, which is kind of good.

So other things I've been up to is I've written two movie trivia books. This is drawn upon my love of 80s films and nostalgia. So I had The Canadian Mounted, which is a trivia guide to planes, trains and automobiles, because it's a reference to a book that one of the characters is reading in it.

That took off beyond my wildest dreams. I thought 15-20 people in the world would buy it, and I wrote it completely as a passion project, and it just keeps shooting. It's been out for a few years now, and every Thanksgiving season through Christmas, it sells like gangbusters. Then I did a trivia book of Die Hard called Yippee Ki-Yay, you know the rest. So that came out.

Then this December, I'm working on a book, which is Merry Christmas! which is a line cousin Eddie uses in Christmas Vacation. Again, that's going to be like the 35th anniversary of the release of that movie. So that's been a weird tangent.

Of course, I then attended Western Colorado University's Masters of Creative Writing Program taught by our mutual friend Kevin J. Anderson. I got my specialisation in publishing. Why not get a piece of paper to go with the 35 years of experience?

Then three days after I got my degree, Liz and I flew from Colorado, where I was on campus, to New York City. We got married there on the 10th anniversary of our first date.

That, ironically, was inspired not only by the fact that that's our city, we love New York City so much. We've been there about eight times in a six-year period. It was inspired by a co-authored book in my Canadian Werewolf series called Lover's Moon, which is a romantic comedy tale.

There's a scene that takes place in Central Park on the Bow Bridge, the bridge where people tend to propose. After we finished writing that, I turned to Liz, and I said, “You know, we could just elope and go to New York and get married in Central Park.” So we did that, which is fun.

Then, of course, I've got A Book in Hand coming out. So that's the Reader's Digest version. Could you imagine if I did the long version?

Joanna: Can we also say that you work at Draft2Digital. So you also have a day job!

Mark: Yes. Well, I mean, that's only 20 hours a week.

Joanna: It's a part time day job, but still. Just coming back on the Wide for the Win, because just for people who might not know, basically the idea is that you're not exclusive to Amazon.

It's interesting, when I say wide now, I actually mean Kickstarter and Shopify stores. Like it used to just mean Kobo Writing Life and Apple and Google and stuff like that.

Now publishing wide is much, much bigger than just the other e-retailers isn't it?

Mark: Yes, and my version of wide has always been that. I've always thought, okay, the other retailers are just the beginning. Direct sales, Kickstarters, Patreon, and all the different things you can do, there are so many other platforms, so many other ways of selling.

I really want to help authors understand the ability to extend and expand to audiences outside of the regular places. That's partly what A Book in Hand is trying to get into.

I'm focusing very specifically on physical products because I think a lot of indie authors don't.

I think you and I both know the value of that physical artifact. Even though it's harder and it takes more work, there can be a long-term benefit.

So yes, wide to the other retailers is a small version of wide. My wide means every possible avenue, as a creator and as a storyteller.

Joanna: Yes, I really like that. I actually think that the shift is happening. It's great that you've set that company up with the others because I feel like maybe we're in year one or two of that being the movement.

I mean the movement in the first 15 years, really since you and I met, before 2010, was very much focused on the Amazon model first. Even though there were other retailers, obviously, you were at Kobo back then when we met.

Now I feel like there's a real shift, and people are opening up to that. So I think starting the company now, whatever you're planning to do, really is the right time because people are realizing they need to do all this stuff.

Not just for the money, but also for the creative expression, and the experience, and the other possibilities of being out there.

Mark: For sure. Again, education and making sure people are getting good information was the key thing that we all cared about. Not just sharing the passion for doing all the things you can do, multiple streams of income and all those things, but also helping steer people in the right direction.

There's a lot of misinformation out there, and we wanted to get a little bit better at formulizing trying to help authors.

Joanna: Great. Well, we'll look forward to that. So let's get into the book. So it is mainly about in-person signings and in-person events. I wanted to talk to you about this because I resist this completely.

I have, like you know, the only signed books I've done are my Kickstarters so far. I really love them, but I go up, I sign all the books, and they get sent out. I have never done a book signing.

I don't do fairs or conventions or any of that. If I go speak somewhere, I don't take books with me. So people have to bring their own copy and I'll sign them, which, you know, I've done for people. Basically, I want you to start by convincing me and some of the listeners—

Why should we do these types of in-person signings and events? What are the benefits?

Mark: I'm going to first start off, Jo, with saying, I may not convince you to do the in-person events because you're already leveraging the principles behind A Book in Hand by doing what you do.

You go to BookVault, you sign the Kickstarter, and you have the benefit of that relationship with the people without having to sit there at a bookstore.

Let's go back to the concept in general. It's derived from something that you've often said, as things move and progress in this industry, doubling down on you and your authentic self is key, and that's at the basis of this.

Especially in a tech-heavy and high tech digital world, especially with AI-charged content that can surpass even those rapid release people—like that's coming, we'll probably talk about that in a bit—it's the connections that people crave.

Connections are the most fundamental reason for storytelling and for writing and books.

There's so many readers out there who want a connection with the writer.

Now you, with what you've done with your magnificent Kickstarters and signing the books, it's like if I want a signed copy of Joanna's book, this is the way I get it. You've done that in a way that's very comfortable for you, and I love that. I think that's amazing, and that is still part of that mandate.

Sometimes an in-person event, when somebody connects with you—and I'm sure you've experienced this numerous times, people are fans, and they've heard you.

For example, I was talking to someone at a conference in Calgary who's a huge fan of yours, like I am, and they're so jealous of the fact that I talk to you, get to hang out with you, and stuff like that. When they meet you, it's a real experience, and not just because of what you've done for authors.

Liz, for example, she's pretty much read most of your Morgan Sierra novels and loves them. So there's this whole cool experience of “Jo's really sweet and lovely and optimistic, and yet, look at all the stuff she writes.”

Joanna: You are the same, by the way. People should read your fiction!

Mark: Same thing, and people marvel at that. It's like, really, you wrote that? I'm just like, yeah, that's why it's therapy. That's why I'm okay as a person. I get it out in my writing.

It brings the reader something well beyond just the words on a page. It gives them an experience.

So you're creating a unique and dynamic experience for the reader that they may cherish. Maybe it's posing while you signed a book for them, maybe it's something else in person.

So I'll give you a couple examples. At one of the events I did a couple years ago at Frightmare In The Falls in Niagara Falls, Canada, I had somebody who had bought my hardcovers online, probably Amazon or some other store, and came in a werewolf costume to Frightmare In The Falls just to meet me and get my book signed.

Of course, I took a picture with him. I didn't sell anything to him at that event, and it cost me a lot of money to be at that event. I did make my money back and a little bit more from that event.

Me being there with somebody who loved my books so much that they show up in a costume with my books just so I can sign, that experience hopefully gave this fan something really cool that he can share with other people.

Another thing I've done, there's a brewery in Hamilton, Ontario, and one summer, eight of the ten of those weeks of the summer, I was there on Saturday. It cost me $25 to have a little booth and sell books, and I was the only book vendor there.

There was one gentleman I had handed a card, it had a coupon code for Kobo and the book cover of one of my thrillers, Evasion. So he was looking around, and he recognized my name because I'd edited a science fiction anthology by a small Canadian publisher years earlier. He's like, “Oh, I think I have one of your books.”

I gave him a card, and I said, “Here, go inside. There's free Wi Fi,” he's going to go in and have a beer, “Check it out for free.” He comes back 45 minutes later, and he goes, “Do you have that book?” I said, “Yes, well, I just gave it to you. I just gave you the ebook.”

He said, “No, no, I want the physical book. Can you sign it for me? I'm really enjoying it. I want to own it.”

Since then, this one in-person experience of just chatting and not trying to oversell someone, it's turned into a lifelong fan who buys every single one of my books and leaves reviews for them too.

That personal relationship with a reader is one of the more powerful things you can do.

Joanna: Yes, it is, and I am convinced of that.

Even you and I, we've met at events over the years, and because we meet in person, I mean we talk like this sometimes, but because we meet in person, we have more of a relationship, and we've done business together.

So I think that, even if it's not just the readers.

Say you're at a convention and no reader even buys a book, you're still you can still connect with other creators who are there, and learn a lot from them, and maybe meet some of the people you're fans of, and stuff like that. So why don't you just—

What are the different types of in-person events and what kinds of authors do they suit?

Because there are so many different things, aren't there?

Mark: So for example, I mean, the most common one authors often think of is a lonely author in the front of a bookstore in a mall, right, sitting at a table.

Joanna: Don't do that!

Mark: Well, I mean, there are situations where it may be okay for you to do that. Some authors it's good for, and others it's not.

So that's one, for example, that you've got specialty shops. So shops that are specialty, because I write horror, and I write scary stuff, and I have true ghost stories and things like that, specialty shops.

I was at a gem location this summer at a metaphysical fair festival, so people interested in metaphysical and paranormal and stuff like that. So that's a good fit.

There are friends of mine who write epic fantasy, and they do a lot of medieval fairs, sometimes dressed up as knights and stuff like that.

I think going to book adjacent events could be even more important.

So for example, I talked about the brewery, I was the only book vendor there. So a couple things happen when you're the only book vendor there. Not everyone reads, right? Like one in four Americans have read a book since high school, I'd say maybe even fewer than one in four.

The book nerds, the book fans, really recognize when there's a book anywhere. When I see books and beer, I'm just excited about either one of them. So anytime it has anything to do with beer or books, I'm just all over it like a cheap suit.

So if you're the only book vendor there, the book people are probably going to come to you, which can be beneficial. Now, depending on the genres you write, maybe the books are not for them, but that doesn't mean that you still haven't made an impression on them.

The challenge with in person events is you can't do cost per click measures.

It's so hard to do that. With online ads and stuff like that, you can kind of see how many people looked at it, how many people clicked, how many sales that translated into.

With some of these things, it's this long-term touch event. So for example, one of the events I was at, which was another brewery, I had somebody approach me who said, “Mark Leslie, I know your name,” and it goes back to a podcast I was on 10 years earlier that's no longer on the air.

It's like one of these things that I couldn't measure the fact that doing this podcast 10 years earlier was going to result in a book sale from somebody who walks by and sees my book. Had I not been there in person, she wouldn't have seen my book.

There's so many different local fairs, craft fairs, markets, pop up fairs, and, like I said, book adjacent specialty shops. Even coffee shops, breweries, and places like that. You're limited by your imagination, right?

Like when you want to go wide, think about going wide with physical books. Not necessarily just sitting and planting yourself in front of a bookstore and hope somebody takes pity on you and buys one of your books from you.

Joanna: I think you're right. I mean, of course some people want to do signings in bookstores, but as you said, actually—

The book adjacent events can be much better, as long as you can find some overlap.

I was thinking, there's a lot of Christmas fairs as this goes out, I mean, towards the end of the year, land you'll be next to people who've made knitted things or have some food things and wine and stuff. So that, to me, is a kind of book adjacent event to consider.

I think one of the things that puts me off is, like you did mention there, you can't do cost per click. You can't necessarily do an ROI.

If you spend a couple of $100 to get a store, and then you spend a couple of thousand to print enough books to make the day worthwhile, like if it gets sold. Then you have to get them there, and then maybe you have to drive there. There's just all kinds of things that make me worry about it.

What are your tips for making the event successful, in terms of preparation and then also on the day?

Mark: So there's a few things that can be helpful. I guess it depends on how many books you have.

I know this sounds weird and odd, but having one or two books is so much easier than having a lot of books because one of the challenges is determining what I'm going to take.

Now, I do a lot of events now. For example, this week, I did one this past Sunday, I have an event Thursday night, an outdoor event in Uptown Waterloo. Then I'm driving almost two hours to Ontario's west coast, just south of Goderich, to do an open air book festival on Saturday.

I have stock of a lot of my books. I have a room dedicated in my basement, because we live in a big enough house, that is my shipping, receiving, and stock room. It's where I have all my books laid out on shelves so I can track and I can see.

I use local printers. I use Amazon. I use Ingram. I use various ways to get these different books in stock.

It is expensive, having 10 of this, and 10 of that, and 10 of the other.

Then with my traditionally published books, I order from a local bookstore. They give me a discount, and I support a local business. It goes through their register, and also a year later, I'll get like chump change royalties from the publisher on it. I make more margin on the ones I'm planning to resell anyway.

So tips for making the event successful I think are, obviously, you're going to want to share that on social media. You're going to want to put it out in your author newsletter. All the ways that you let your fans know.

Again, no, I don't necessarily know where all my fans are because I don't have those demographics from where they are, if they're local or nearby. So no matter where I go, I try to let them know, “Hey, I'm going to be here. I'm going to be in South Dakota in September, South Dakota Book Festival.”

I'm going to send it out my newsletter because maybe there's somebody in my newsletter who lives there. I've had people show up at events saying, “Hey, I got your newsletter last week that said you're going to be here, so I made a point. It was an hour drive. I came to see you.” So that's really important.

I think having merchandise props, some sort of setting part based on your brand of who you are as an author in the book or the books that you write, that can work. For example, I have Barnaby Bones. I have my skeleton.

Usually the skeleton either tells people stay away from the crazy bald man, or they come running over because that's their jam. Like skeletons, yay. Love it.

I also have a sign that I hang there, it's like a bat shaped sign that says, “Ghost stories told here.” It's a great icebreaker. People will come over and say, “Well, you tell ghost stories. Well, tell me a ghost story.”

Then I say, “Well, first of all, because this is an important thing, I'm not just going to tell you any ghost story. I want to find out what kind of ghost stories you like because I have thousands.”

One of the more important things is not necessarily selling — it's engaging.

So one of the other things is props. Even having access through our good friend Damon and Bookfunnel print cards. I have cards. I have ebooks.

Some people may say, “Well, I'd rather just get the ebooks.” Well, I have the whole Canadian Werewolf series here in ebook in the little oversized postcards that I print from Vistaprint with a cover on it. I can sign with a marker on the front, there's room on the back to sign, but then there's also that special code.

So I can do one of a combination of things. I could give something away if I feel like, “Hey, check this out.” If they really like it, then maybe they'll come back and they'll buy the series wherever they buy ebooks, or they'll get them from the library.

So I can sell the ebooks that way. I can sell the audiobooks that way. I can even add them as somebody who buys the whole series. Like here, download the eBooks for free. So you can have these signed copies and then listen to the book.

So I think having physical merchandise is tricky, but very expensive, of course, and again, something that will draw the right fans to your table. If you write cat mysteries, you better have some cat stuff.

With the master's program, we just released a book called Feisty Felines and Other Fantastical Familiars. I remember having the book at a fair earlier this summer, even just before the book officially launched, Kevin said it was okay for us to put those author copies out and start getting people excited.

I mean, I had people running over when they saw the black cat on the front because you can see it from far away. They came over because there was a cat on it, and they were all over it. They were all over it and loved it. So that was a really exciting thing. So again, you never know what's going to catch someone's eye.

Joanna: It's a good point.

You've mentioned a couple of times not to be too salesy. Don't do the hard sell.

I remember, it was one ThrillerFest in New York. ThrillerFest has a big book sales room, and people do signings in there. I mean, it is an event for authors, so everyone there is an author.

If you go, they can stock your books in the main thing. I remember going in there, and of course, everyone wants to buy books, but I remember going in there and this guy just came up to me, holding his book, and said, “Do you want to buy this?”

Obviously, my first reaction is, no, I don't want to buy this, but because I'm English, I'm very polite. I was like, “Oh, that looks very interesting.”

Then, of course, you've reached out a hand, Then you're holding the book, and he's done what people on the street do, you know, with little things where they give it to you, and once they've given it to you, and then you're like, oh, no, now I have to buy it. I still remember him. This is like a decade ago.

I still remember him being someone I did not want to buy his book. I don't think I did buy it in the end, but I was annoyed that he was even taking the time in my head when I wanted to be looking for books I actually wanted. So that's like an example of definitely do not do.

What are some of the other big mistakes you see newbies make with these in-person events?

Mark: Well, I want to double down on what you just said to make sure that your listeners pick up on this. The difference between making one sale—like he was very forceful, and put putting a book in your hand that you were not interested in.

That was an anxious, uncomfortable moment that still lives with you. He made the worst possible—well, one of the worst possible impressions, there could have been worse things—but he made a really bad impression. It's still with you.

You'll probably never buy anything from that author because of that bad experience. So I would rather not make a sale now, but have a potential long-term relationship or long-term interactions with somebody.

I think too many authors try so hard to get the sale now, because I paid for my table, and I want to make my money back, or my flight, or whatever it cost me to get here. They're so fixated on that that they miss out on: is this the right person for the book? Is this the right reader? That should be their focus.

So we talked about overspending, with the merchandise, and by printing too much stock and stuff like that. I think —

Focusing on a legitimate and genuine connection with the right person is way more important.

That includes—and you mentioned this earlier, and it's so important—talking to the other authors, talking to the other vendors, getting to know the staff wherever it is that you happen to be. You never know who might be or might know someone who's going to be your ideal reader.

So it's not always be closing, it's always be connecting. So, for example, if I was in that gentleman's shoes, and you walk by—and probably not you because you do like dark things—but I'm standing there, and somebody comes by, and says, “Oh, what do you have there?”

I'll be like, “Well, then do you like horror?” Then they're like, “No, I'm more of a romance reader.”

I'm like, “Oh, well, I don't really have anything for you. Well, I sort of have one book, but not really your cup of tea. But you know what? My friend Bella, just down there, you've got to check out her Sullivans Series. It is absolutely amazing.”

“If you like thrillers with some action and adventure, Marie Force has a fantastic series, The Fatal Series. You're going to love that.” So get to know who else is there and what they have.

If somebody comes up to you and asks for something and you don't have what they want, don't waste their time trying to sell them something and fit the square peg in the round hole.

Try to help them find what they're looking for.

As a bookseller, I did this when I was managing a bookstore. People would come to my bookstore in the mall to ask non-book-related questions because they knew I would do everything I could to help them. They liked me and they trusted me, and people buy things from people they know, like, and trust.

So they would come to the mall and say, “Oh, I'm looking for a really great hardware store,” or something like that, “I figured you'd recommend something.” It has nothing to do with books, and I would help them.

Guess what? The next time they needed a book, guess who they were going to refer their friends to or come to.

Joanna: Or buy a gift. I mean, that's the other thing, isn't it? Like a lot of people are buying gifts at these things. It doesn't have to be for themselves. Then oftentimes it's like, “Oh, well, I like that guy. I'll go back and buy a gift from him,” or whatever.

Mark: They had a good experience. So imagine that person came by and they said, “I've got this book. It's this genre that you're not interested in,” and you just had a nice, short conversation, and he wasn't pushy and didn't try to force it on you.

Then you remembered, oh, that was an interesting book, and then you're talking to someone in a coffee shop later on when you're in line, and they're like, “Oh, I really like this.”

Then you're like, “Oh, there's a guy, he's just around the corner by the red pillar. Look for him. I bet you his book would be good for you.” You never know.

Again, the biggest challenge, especially with indie authors who grew up trained digitally, on ebooks and cost per click and all that, you can't measure that. That's probably the most frustrating aspect.

Joanna: You said there about thinking about the other person, and you also have to think about the kind of event. Also, not giving people too much choice. So both you and I have a lot of books, and it's expensive to print everything. Also, if I take every single one of my books, people are like, ‘oh, too much choice.'

There's all those studies, aren't there, that if you give people three different jams, for example, they're more likely to buy one than if you have 20 different jams. So you have to really think about what event it is.

I was actually just thinking then, because I am considering doing a Christmas market here in Bath, and I was like, well, which books would I take? Then I remembered, my mum has a book called A Summerfield Christmas Wedding.

Mark: Perfect.

Joanna: I'm like, well, of course, I would take my mum's book. Then I'd have maybe my thrillers and some non-fiction, just one of each or two of each. Then I have my mum's Christmas book, and maybe that would be the one that sold a ton.

Mark: Well, that's the primary display, but then somebody's like, “Oh, I love Christmas stuff, but I have a friend who loves archeological thrillers,” or whatever, because you've got so many different things now.

That's the other thing is, maybe just feature the first book in the series and then have the other ones kind of subtly off to the side, but not as visible until someone really gets into it. That's the other trick.

Joanna: Or even just the first one in each series. Then in talking to people, you can say, “Well, look, I have an email list. I can send you the details of the other books.”

I was going to ask you about this. So I'm kind of trained on very much the anti-spam thing, so I have never added someone to my email list manually. When I hear from people like yourself who do live events—

Do you keep a manual email list and add people to it live?

So how do you deal with that?

Mark: I stopped doing that. I used to have a clipboard, and one of the problems with the clipboard is people write like they're doctors, like a prescription. You can't read what their name is anyway. I stopped with the manual board, and I go with a QR code that brings them right to my list.

I say, “Hey, you want this book for free? Scan here, and you get the download. You can get it on your phone with the free Bookfunnel app, and you can start reading it now if you want. Then you're on my newsletter list, and I can let you know what's going on.”

So I find that's way better because it's not forcing anyone to have to take a clipboard and write things down, and then you have to go in. Again, it's manual labor to go and enter it in.

Joanna: Just a QR code on a sheet of paper?

Mark: Yes. I mean, most people have a smartphone on them, so they can quickly and instantly sign up for your newsletter right then and there and get the free book right away.

So one of the things I've done as well as, so in my Canadian Werewolf series, for example, I have a little postcard and I have a sign with a QR code on it where you can download the eBook or the audiobook, or both, through Bookfunnel on a Bookfunnel landing page.

The QR code takes you right to the Bookfunnel landing page, and again, it's not you have to opt in for my newsletter because I don't want that. I'm sorry, I pay for enough deadbeats on my newsletter who do SFA. I'm sorry. I'm pushing really hard right now on my newsletter, and I'm happy.

Joanna: You have to get rid of people.

Mark: Well, if you're not going to click things, or respond, reply, or buy things from me, what the hell are you doing there? Get the hell out. You're just dead weight, and you're costing me a lot of money.

I don't mean to be mean, but I would rather have somebody who's engaged and wants to hear from me on the newsletter, because those are my people. The other people just got a free book once, and they're just costing me money.

So again, I don't force them. Like, even when they get the free download, it's an option. I don't have it clicked by default. They have to choose to be on my newsletter because I don't want to put them on my newsletter unless they want to be on my newsletter. So I give them the option.

Joanna: That's a good tip. The other thing I wonder about is the money side. So, of course, you mentioned at some events there is a bookseller there, and it will go through them.

Do you need to have a Square or some kind of mobile payment system?

Because a lot of people don't even have cash anymore?

Mark: Great question. I used to have one of the small Square Readers that tapped and connected to my phone, and it was just problematic software-wise. I ended up investing last year in one of the full size Square Readers that has the receipt printer built into it. It cost me a few hundred dollars.

The other thing I like about it is I can print a receipt for someone right there on the spot if they want one. I can also email or text all the things that they want. All my inventory is in there.

I used to, when it was a cash sale, I had a little notebook where I would say I took $10 for this book and whatever. I remember one time at one of the really busy events I was at, my sister was there helping, a lovely person, of course, but she makes me look organized.

She forgot to mark down which books I sold for cash, and so when I go to balance the next day, it was like, well, I have all this money, but I don't know what it was for.

So I even put my cash sales through the Square Reader, so I can, A, print a receipt for them. B, I used to print a second receipt for myself, throw it in the cash box, and I knew I sold that book for cash, or these books for cash.

Then in Square, I run a report the next day, and if it's just a cash sale or credit or debit or whatever it is, I can see exactly what I sold, and all of it's through the same system.

Joanna: That's really good.

Mark: So I have something I can load to ScribeCount because I'm tracking my sales in many different ways, but it's also a report that's useful for me to understand.

Then I can go back, no, I don't have my inventory properly managed where I go downstairs and look at the shelf and go, okay, I have 10 copies of this book, better order some soon because I've got so many shows coming up. Then you've got to do it in time, right?

I mean, I'm in Canada, so some of the printing is locally here with a printer. Some of it's printed with Amazon Canada, now that they print. When it's coming from Ingram in the States, crossing the border, you have to plan weeks in advance.

Joanna: I was thinking about this, so let's say Author Nation, you and I are both going to be there. It's in Las Vegas. I know they have, like in that hotel, they have a FedEx or business shipping site. I was even wondering about, I know it's Amazon, but on Amazon they have those lockers and things like that.

Do you do shipping to the points where you're flying to?

Mark: I have not yet done in-person sales outside of Canada because customs fees and getting nailed for selling across the border. So I have not yet. I have shipped books to the States to put in consignment with a vendor who's there, like a bookseller.

I've dropped shipped to hotels and stuff like that. I have also shipped books or brought books to give away. I learned that from Becca Syme. It's just too much of a hassle to fill out all the paperwork.

Joanna: I was wondering, I don't know if I'm going to do this, but one could do presales of special editions, get the money now, and then ship them all to Las Vegas, and then give the people who are there those signed copies that they have pre-bought.

You're not doing the sales on-site, you're doing them beforehand.

Mark: Maybe the pre-bought allows you to buy an extra bag that you check in that's filled with these books.

Joanna: No, I would just ship them to the location. I did notice that last time—

Mark: But you're paying taxes to your government, right? So if you're selling, you're paying taxes through your online system. It's already taken care of, so you don't have to worry about any of that. Which I think, Jo, that's genius. I love that.

Joanna: I mean, obviously in America, a lot of people are flying around to these things. Well, it's just something I was thinking about, I was thinking, what if I did this, how would I do it in a way that's easy enough?

I think this is the big thing, like even the Square Reader you said there, a couple of hundred dollars doesn't worry me, it's the how nervous I would be using it for the first time, or screwing it up when I had someone buying a Christmas present, or somebody who didn't really know how to do it.

I do think the pandemic has probably changed it, though. Now people know how to use QR codes, and everyone pays with a tap now, don't they?

Mark: They do, yes. The other thing too, I mean, I guess I have 20-plus years working in physical bookstores at Christmas. So I don't get stressed out by that. I mean, if I ever have a line like that again, oh my god, like Brandon Sanderson style lines, that'd be nice.

Joanna: You'll be happy. Also, people are nice. I mean, if your Reader isn't working, whatever, you sort it out. Okay, well, that's loads of my questions. Is there anything else you think we haven't covered that people need to know? I mean, obviously they can get your book, A Book in Hand, but is there anything else?

Well, let me bring something up, actually. I saw a post from an author who did Comic Con, I think, or one of these bigger conventions, and they said, “That's my last time. It's too exhausting.” So there's that energy management, as well as expensive, and it's like that “I'm done.” So that would be a question.

How do you manage your energy at these live events?

How are you like, okay, I've done enough events? Or are you just your Energizer Bunny self, and just go forever?

Mark: It is so tough because I'm an omnivert, and I do get exhausted from being on, because I look at it as being on. So that is tough. That is really, really hard. You have to know yourself and understand yourself and what you need.

You can't overextend yourself. That's so important. Whether it's trying to write books too fast, or whether it's trying to do in-person events when that's not your comfort level. So that's really an important thing.

I can't advise you to do anything other than listen to your body, and listen to your emotions, and listen to how you feel. It's like, I eat this thing and it feels something afterwards, stop eating that thing, right? So that's so important now.

Also, in a weird way, it exhausts me. Then I connect with somebody who's come back because they bought something last time. They're like, “Oh, you're here again. Good because I wanted to get a signed copy of the next book in the series,” or they even just talk to me about it. Again, I'm creating an experience for that reader.

When you create an experience for that person, that's marketing.

Dean Wesley Smith had shared one time that a print book is, on average, handled by seven people. So that print book that somebody bought from you and has signed from you, maybe they have a picture with you and that's exciting, that's something they're going to share.

That's the marketing. That's the seven points, you know what I mean? Your book cover is a billboard. That's really important.

Then the other thing that's funny, and Liz and I had this conversation, I did Frightmare in the Falls in Niagara Falls a few years ago that was far enough away I had to stay in a hotel overnight.

The table cost me a lot of money, and I had my stepdaughter come in one day on the Saturday. I could handle the Friday night and the Sunday myself because they were slower, but the Saturday was going to be a busy day. So I paid her to come in and spend the day with me.

I think I brought in maybe $1,500 or $1,600 in sales, and by the time I calculated the cost of my inventory, plus the costs of all the other costs, and the meals and whatever, I think I made $100 off that conference. It was like a three-day weekend.

Here's the thing. Liz goes, “Well, that was a huge waste.” I said, “Well, A, I'm ahead slightly.”

Yes, it was a lot of work for 100 bucks, but that was the event where the gentleman showed up in a werewolf costume. That was the event where new people who had never bought any of my books or even knew who I was, walked away with some of my books.

That event was a marketing campaign, no different than like an Amazon ad campaign, where your book is seen by somebody who may be interested in buying it.

So I say, okay, yes, I only walked away $100 richer from this event, but I have the experience, and I've given lots of people the experience of who Mark Leslie is, the name I write most of my stuff under.

That, again, is so frustrating because I can't point to anything and go, “Look, Liz, my sales went up magically on Amazon a week after.”

Joanna: Well, I think the other thing here, actually, this is important, and I've done this many times, is you—

Take photos that you can use for social media that make things look bigger than they actually are.

I mean, even my signings at Bookvault. You know, Bookvault is a printing factory. It's not like some sexy location, although, of course, book printing is very sexy.

Mark: It is very sexy.

Joanna: They've just got a room, well, it's not even a special room, it's like a corridor, and we set up a thing. The angle you take photos at can make things look much better.

Mark: They look amazing. I'm like, I can't wait to have that one day. Meanwhile, you're in a hallway, right?

Joanna: Yes, you're in a hallway. I mean, you and I, do you remember when we did Frankfurt Book Fair together? When you had hair.

Mark: Yes, I had some hair.

Joanna: You had some hair back then. There's some pictures of us at Frankfurt Book Fair.

Mark: The pictures are pretty amazing. It looks like a huge audience.

Joanna: Actually, we were in some random hall. There's loads of halls. I mean, it's a huge fair. There was hardly anyone there, but we did it, and the photos look really good. So, I mean, that's a little secret, I guess.

Mark: All six people in the audience looked way bigger.

Joanna: So I guess that's the other thing.

If you do an event, and you're doing it for marketing, make sure you get pictures.

Just get your friend or some passerby to kind of look as if you're signing or something, and then you can use that in social media, and that will help too.

Mark: Oh, for sure. I mean, and the same thing too, I've been at book events where nobody showed up. I was in Vancouver once at an independent bookstore for three hours signing copies of one of my books, Haunted Bookstores and Libraries: Tomes of Terror, and nobody showed up.

I didn't sell a single book to anybody, even though my publisher advertised it, I advertised it, and put it all on social media. I spent three hours hanging out with the staff and having a blast chatting with them, instead of being a miserable guy who was all upset because nobody came to my party.

I had a blast with these booksellers, and I'm positive they hand-sold my book when I left. Again, the experience we had together was richer than me just selling a few books that day.

Joanna: Yes, always be connecting. That's probably the quote of the day.

So we're almost out of time, but I did want to come to a sort of bigger question. Now, you and I co-wrote The Relaxed Author back in 2021. The reason we did that was we had a conversation, and one of the listeners were like, oh, you should write that book. So we did.

Mark: Thank you, Jo's listeners.

Joanna: At the time we wrote it was because authors were really stressed. At that point it was really the end of organic reach. The end of organic reach on Amazon. The end of organic reach on Facebook. It was a real shift to paid ads. There was a lot of angst about KU.

That was what was going on in that period. Now, I mean, that's kind of as normal now. The changes have really sped up. We've got generative AI and the impacts of that, and there's always stress in the author community. I wondered what your thoughts were on—

How can authors be more relaxed about change, in general?

Any thoughts on the impact of AI, given that you also work at Draft2Digital? Or your own personal thoughts?

Mark: It's a tough one because it's like exponential. The change is just growing at a faster rate than we can keep up with, and there's more things to be anxious about.

So the first thing is to take a deep breath. I know it's a weird question to ask, but I mean, it's like, how does this affect my goals and my long-term plans? Or am I just fixated on looking at a dashboard all day instead of getting the important work done?

I think people need that more. I need that more. Jo, I pick up the book sometimes because I get anxious about stuff, and I pick it up and go, oh yeah, we said some pretty smart things here. We should listen to ourselves every once in a while.

So if I have to remind myself to listen to the things, I mean, I can imagine that there's a lot of change.

So here's a couple things we know. The technology is not going to get put back in Pandora's box. It's not going to go back into the bottle. It's going to keep going, and it's going to grow, whether we ride the wave or we get swallowed by the wave.

So there may be ways to look at a new technology, and I know this is hard, especially in this divisive world we live in, but look at something with a mind not of “I don't like this because I've never tried this vegetable, but I think it tastes horrible, so I'm never going to try it.”

Try to look at it with an open mind.

Try to see if there's a way within your goal set and within the things that are important to you and that you value, whether it's your moralistic values, or the things that you just value in general.

Are there ways that you can leverage that for your author business in ways that can ease some of the pain points that you have?

Because we all have pain points, right? So you may never be somebody who's going to use a technology a certain way, but you may want to use it in another way that can ease you.

So for example, I've been using, thanks to you, and I got the code off of your website, the ProWritingAid, I got a discount on that. So I clean up my manuscript with ProWritingAid before I send it to a human editor because it saves me money, and probably saves my editor a lot of anxiety and ulcers.

It cleans up some of the boring, redundant stuff I always do, the habits I have as a writer. So there are ways that technology can help in so many different ways if we're willing to work with it.

I don't just mean use it, I mean work with it. I mean understand. No different than understanding how to operate a vehicle, no different than how to understand operating a word processing software.

I had to go from typewriter to Paperback Writer, then Word Perfect, then Microsoft Word, over the years. I started off pen and paper and then I went to typewriter, because I'm one of those old guys. So I see it's no different.

Sometimes we get so anxious about the extremes of what this could do, as opposed to looking at what it could do. You know, it could be bad, but it could also do these things for us. It's a hard thing for us to do, so deep breath is usually where I often start.

I'm a guy with high blood pressure, and I get excited very easily, so I have to monitor this. So I'm speaking from personal experience, stop and take a deep breath.

Joanna: Yes, and also, I think this does come back to, as you mentioned it earlier, obviously the double down on being human and in-person events. To me, there are things that AI is useful for. Certainly for me, cover design.

You mentioned editing there. Marketing, oh my goodness. I mean —

I think most authors are going to be very happy the day we can just tell an AI agent, “Here's my book. Please go market it.” That will be amazing, and that's coming.

Mark: Authors hate marketing. It stresses them out.

Joanna: Exactly, and so there are things that we very, very much would like that to do.

But in-person events. I mean, for sure, the robots will come at some point, but there still is going to be a human sitting behind a table at a human event, selling books to other humans.

You can't get much more human than selling books at physical events, I suppose.

Mark: I mean, it's one of the things that allows you to stand out in the digital slush pile, in the digital masses, is the real human. Now, I can talk about the story I wrote because I know it inside out because I spent 10 years writing this book, or whatever it was.

You know this better than anyone else, and so you can connect with people in a more meaningful way that even the technology that exists can't. It can't respond and interact and engage the way you can. You are the best marketing tool for your book.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find all your books and everything you do online?

Mark: Well, you can find me at MarkLeslie.ca. You can find links to me on all the social medias, etc. If you're looking for A Book in Hand, the preorder links for this book will be at MarkLeslie.ca/abookinhand. Nice and easy.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Mark. That was great.

Takeaways:

• In-person signings and events provide opportunities for authors to create connections with readers and offer unique experiences.
• Authors should focus on genuine connections with the right readers rather than making immediate sales.
• Book adjacent events, specialty shops, and local fairs are great venues for in-person events.
• Authors should prepare by promoting the event on social media and in newsletters, having merchandise and props that align with their brand, and engaging with other authors and vendors.
• Avoid being too salesy and instead focus on connecting with readers and helping them find the right books.
• In-person events can lead to long-term relationships and word-of-mouth recommendations. When selling books at in-person events, consider bringing a variety of genres and titles, including your own books and books by other authors.
• Use QR codes to make it easy for readers to sign up for your email list and receive free books or other incentives.
• Accept mobile payments to accommodate readers who may not carry cash.
• Manage your inventory and sales using tools like Square to track transactions and print receipts.
• Focus on creating a positive experience for readers and building connections with them.
• Embrace technology and AI to streamline processes and alleviate pain points in your author business.
• Take a deep breath and approach change with an open mind, considering how it aligns with your goals and values.
• In-person events provide an opportunity to stand out in the digital world and connect with readers on a personal level.

The post Selling Books In Person At Live Events With Mark Lefebvre first appeared on The Creative Penn.