Yeah. But like I do think when you put it in the perspective of the fact that the companies are literally going to be paid for it, you're like, yeah. What are we even forcing them to do? Just accept money, just sell something, like it's disturbed. But do you think... It's

also, well, sorry, like, you know, like social housing contracts that were signed are like expiring and like people are doing work around that. But like, you know, like the kind of like non-market housing like is getting smaller in Berlin and it's these companies who are like benefiting immensely. So... Yeah, yeah. When you say non-market housing, you mean like... Social... like so like...

Yeah, yeah, like

my rough Like understanding of what's going on and there's people like within the campaign you can speak better to the specifics of this and who we work with but like How some social housing in Germany worked is effectively they would contract private companies for 40 years to provide housing at a specific social rate. Yeah,

okay.

And a lot of those are expiring, and a lot of them are expiring in pink out, I think, right now. And people are doing work around that, but it's again one of these things where it's like, you know, and they sold 200,000 units, again, in like the 90s and 2000s. Like the heart of this crisis is that, right? This movement, and the profit orientation of the state companies to

some extent.

Yeah,

a mix of things. Do you think, Matt, that this could... Well, obviously my question is do you think that this could work in Ireland? But then my question is just like is this the most um is it the best route for us to go down for the house in crisis in Ireland and then that's also a follow-up question to you down there like why did you guys decide this was the solution you kind of got through it anyway but I

mean I mean immediately like you're thinking that obviously the referendum is and the campaign is obviously specific to Berlin in a lot of different ways, and it would obviously need to be tailored in like a social, political, and also the legal context in Ireland. I'm not, I would need

to research that.

And obviously people in this campaign, that's what they did. They would do. Like you guys researched, is this possible? How would we need to do to have this happen? Yeah, and I My immediate suspicion would be that it would be much more difficult to convince the Irish. Yeah public of The legitimacy of expropriation. Yeah, I think I also there's no there's no mechanism for a Dublin tab or a random It would need to be a national thing. Right? Yeah, which So so it's it's it mean, obviously only their home in theory, that's not an issue there. We're not taking anyone's home off them. But it would be, I think, less energy, less sympathy for it. But I think definitely the idea, I think it's a really inspiring campaign just in the pure numbers. Yeah. And in the very fact of getting, going and getting a signature, not only gets the signature that has people thinking about it, it has people already engaged in the housing movement. It's vision building. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think it about themselves as tenants of what that means. Yeah, exactly. Like, can

I have agency? And if I did have agency, what would I do? Yeah.

I think, I think the campaign, we can learn a lot from it. We can take a lot from it. The specific like gold, I think would change from Ireland.

What

do you think? Obviously you work in housing. Yeah,

I think that there's precedent here in Berlin for this specific expropriation project and then also like you said this history is really important where it's like we did have these big like But like this happened in Ireland as well where like in the 70s and stuff and like a that like I think it was Like a much much much higher percentage of people in Dublin lived in Dublin City Corporation housing than they do now. The difference being

that it was mostly sold to tenants, which was seen as actually a really, at the time, like a progressive pro-tenant thing, but actually just resulted in

completely

downloading the stock package, and then they could just sell it to a Deutsche Wannen type the next year anyway. Yeah. So

like in Ireland, what I would see for the vision is the whole universal public housing idea. So I'd be more for the state building the public housing. Obviously not the state we have now, but a state that I see as actually working for the people who elect it. And then I also do really like this idea of democratic... You'd have individuals... Oh, we talked about this a little bit in our cat show episode so I won't like overstate it but like the people who live in the community could like have some control over like what buildings are being built not who gets to move into the community but what buildings are being built in the community and that yeah that housing would be like accessible for anybody and obviously that like done City Council actually do maintenance and maintain and build actual homes which they fail to do right now. So that's I would be more that would be more my perspective that I would that yeah that would be where I would push on. I think rather than like there isn't so much this big villain the way you guys have is like why just like the big villain is Dublin City Council. Like you don't have the we're not going to fucking expropriate off the stage.

The market is different. It's different. Yeah. I mean it's actually more and more getting like brilliant in the sense that increasingly it is these big massive corporate landlords and former vulture funds and stuff that control the properties and that's changing to that direction but traditionally right that it's Yeah, exactly wouldn't even be in the scope of a referendum. Yeah I mean,

I actually think it's interesting like when I talk to other tenants unions like a lot of other tenants unions and tenants groups don't work With as if they don't work in antagonism against private landlords Like we were as like in katoo. We we support the tennis. Well, it's what a union is though, right? I know. I mean, I can do, but... I guess these people... sorry, all these groups aren't necessarily unions. That's important too. You guys aren't a union, right? You're a campaign. So there's different mechanisms. But it is interesting that in Ireland, because of our housing, the conditions of the housing market where you have so many private landlords, we do need to work to support tenants in the face of private. And that is challenging because you know, you're such a bunch of citizens. Like, you can fucking negotiate with each other, it's challenging.

I think as a campaign that like it's like the housing is the primary issue for almost everybody. And it has been for quite a while. And it is the issue, even from like a point of view of what should we be doing and thinking about it? Yeah. And what topics... the housing is the thing that you will mobilize people on. Yeah. That you can mobilize people on. Yeah. And that will directly impact their lives every single day. Yeah. And

they'll swing right or left on it as well. Absolutely. We're seeing the right wing swing in a lot of places now on the housing issue. Right. Across Europe and in Ireland for sure. Like people being able to push people right on the lack of housing. Like against immigrants, sorry if that's not clear. Yeah. But yeah, but also I think that like it's interesting that, I think it's really interesting that you said that the sort of the reason for the big problems we have now was the mass privatization and sell-off after like fall of the wall. It was very symbolic, you know what I mean? Like after capitalism won, quote-unquote, and history ended. And then now we have the shit show we have now. But I think that's the same across the board. Like, obviously in Berlin it's hugely symbolic and linear, but it's also the same in Ireland that, like we said, we had public housing, an idea of public goods in the post-World War II era, and then that was decimated by the influx of neoliberal ideology and then the practice of that ideology through privatisation. So the same, I think the results we're seeing, the absolute alienation, are all from the mass privatisation and the reduction of public goods. So it's all the same monster, just with different outcomes. But anyway, so yeah, I guess that I did, sorry before I ramble there, Danielle did ask you about like why you guys chose this avenue in particular. So maybe you want to talk a bit on that. And then also if you just want to tell us literally anything that we haven't brought up yet. Please just work away, this is your space. as

you're talking about, like, kind of like, you know, like, it's definitely like, each context is like, very unique. But I think to some extent, the campaign and like, maybe this is bad that I'm saying as part of it is like, I think it's like, huge and powerful and amazing. Yeah, but I think it's over exceptionalized, to some extent, in that you can see examples from almost every context of this kind of like, socialization happening either through, for example, like there's this really interesting story in like Washington DC of like tenants in the 70s resisting gentrification, forcing the city to give them the ability to purchase their apartments, like the right of first purchase and then provide financing to do so. And you see a lot of legacy cooperatives from this era that are stable, that exist, of cheap housing controlled by the tenants now, right? And so I think there's lots of examples in every context of these things which are very important to keep in mind that it can happen where you live hopefully like at least in some form it might not be the same like ability to like mass expropriate but it's it's a way of getting it done and like getting the housing back into like community or public control yeah

what was the actual the actual question was like why did you guys choose this path? But I think you've already answered it so. I mean I think that the big thing

is like yeah again right where it's like landlords do whatever they can to evade regulations. Like we need an immediate solution to the housing crisis. And that is like truly something that would have a substantial impact. This is like an amazing mechanism that I am really excited to be part of this campaign. I think it's doing really cool stuff. Yeah and it's exciting to be talking to you as well when there's

things to come in it. So hopefully we can do another episode in a few years being like, wow, look how brilliant that's been. Great, it's worked out. Now all these other cities are copying. Nice. Thank you so much.

Yeah.

It was great to chat to you. Do you anything you want to blow up?

Right, right to theagnon, like if you're here, like join a kids team, get involved with the campaign, there's lots of cool stuff happening. And then just, you know, like join your local tenant union. How

about this, would you say for people listening who aren't here, do you think people should move to Berlin? Just a general question. Just a general question right now. Yeah

they want to. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Perfect. Thanks a lot. Thanks

for having me. In the room.

Please open your hearts and your purses to a man who is misunderstood. He gets all the kicks and the curses, though he wishes you nothing but good. Well, he wistfully begs you to show him you think he's a friend, not a louse. So remember the debt that you owe him, the landlord who lends you his house. So pity the downtrodden landlord and his back that is burdened and bent. Respect his gray hairs, don't ask for repairs, and don't be behind with the rent. Now you're able to work for a living and rejoice in your strength and your skill. So try to be kind and forgiving to a man whom a day's work would kill. You can work and still talk to your neighbor. You can look the whole world in the face. But the landlord who ventured to labor wouldn't be able to work for a living. So try to be kind and forgiving to a man whom a day's work would kill. You can work and still talk to your neighbor. You can look the whole world in the face. But the landlord who ventured to labor wouldn't be able to work for a living. So try to be kind and forgiving to a man whom a day's work would kill. You can work and still survive the disgrace. So pity the downtrodden landlord and his back that is burdened and bent. Respect his gray hairs, don't ask for repairs, and don't be behind with the rent. Now, when a landlord resorts to eviction, don't think that he does it for spite. He is acting from deepest conviction, and what's right after all is what's right. But I see that your hearts are all hardened, and I fear I'm appealing in vain. Yet I hope my last plea will be pardoned, if I beg on my knees once again. pity the downtrodden landlord and his back that is burdened and bent. Respect his gray hairs, don't ask for repairs. And

don't be behind with the rent.