When FlipNosis came out about the con men, was there a DNA of persuasion that would make examples like Churchill kind of story available to all of us? I certainly wouldn't say they were dysfunctional in those contexts. That's the key. And turns out the psychopaths are very good at a lot of things. It took a while, but I think most people now would agree that I've won the argument. Now it's settled into a comfortable middle age with slippers and pipe and sitting by the fire, but it's still an anarchic quality. But the reason I asked you about the willingness to inflict time is because these con-men had no remorse for what they'd done

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