The Transformation in Germany Is Remarkable

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I worry that there's a huge difference between what these countries are willing to do in the opening phase of a brutal war, and what that would look like in three or five years. I'm particularly worried about the oil and gas question, because i do think that it's going to become clear,. maybe even quite soon, that we have to cut off at least russian oil and maybe r Russian gas if we want to stop the war. And so i do worry about the stability of the collition over time. But paradoxcally, if they do use some weapon of mass destruction, that will also have a galvanizing effect on western public opinion too. You know, there

Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a Senior Fellow of the Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University. In her books - most notably Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine and Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe she has chronicled the terrible human costs of past attempts by Russia to dominate countries in Central and Eastern Europe.

In this week’s conversation, Anne Applebaum and Yascha Mounk discuss the developing ideology of "Putinism," what it would look like for Ukraine to win the war, and how democracies can defend their values in a world of resurgent authoritarianism.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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