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2min chapter
#141 – Richard Ngo on large language models, OpenAI, and striving to make the future go well
80,000 Hours Podcast
Exploring Goals in Neural Networks and AI Systems
This chapter examines a recent post on the AI Alignment Forum that emphasizes the need for research into defining internal representations of goals within neural networks. It discusses the uncertainty surrounding AI models like GPT-3 regarding their possession of genuine goals and highlights enthusiasm for connecting theoretical definitions with empirical observations in AI systems.
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Episode notes
Speaker 8
It was before I met
Speaker 1
Jen and it was like, and it wasn't even like I was on many dates, but it was like, you said that. And then I was left to be like with this person. I was like, so yeah. Tom, Tom's my friend. What a fucking asshole. But it was very sobering and very sobering. I didn't like it. It was helpful. It was tough love. It hurt. It hurt, but I think hurt can be good. It hurt a lot. I didn't like it either. But for me to do that, most people, if you don't care about somebody, you're just like, nothing. We just walk right exactly. The biggest insult is to say nothing. But I remember being angry about it, which means that I probably had my feelings hurt. Like maybe we weren't hanging out. Yeah. Who knows? Like maybe I had other people in my life that weren't being nice to me. Who knows? But I definitely was feeling sensitive about it. It was, I mean, part of it, I remember, was trying to tell you, like, hey, be aware of this.
Speaker 4
But why
Speaker 1
I was angry about it, I don't know. And I'm sure I had my own baggage and shit that was going on at the same time because I give people advice all the time. You have to ask for things. Yeah. You do have to ask constantly. You have to like say, you know, hey, you'd have this thing and you're in this place. I would love if you couldn't. Yeah. You have to. But that can't be the,
Speaker 4
you can't
Speaker 1
be the one, you can't be the dog just constantly begging for a treat once I have to sit on their lap. I think that's right. I think my frustration at that time was that you were newly opening for Seinfeld, which was a kind of a wild kind of flying to the moon kind of concept. Yeah. And so my perception was, because you were like in private jets with Seinfeld around the world and playing in front of these. And in my mind, and this is a classic thing, you look at someone else, you go like, they have it
Speaker 5
all. Mm hmm.
Speaker 4
I can ask them, they have it everything. Right.
Speaker 1
You're raising kids. You have your own things that are challenges. Life never becomes not hard. Yeah. No, 100%. I feel like I regret that it was so biting when we had that talk because it derailed us for years. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 7
But then we made up on the,
Speaker 1
the, the table. Like literally just like me, I think it was me being like, Hey, I was wrong about that thing. And you were like, I was probably wrong too. Yeah. And then it was kind of, we just moved on from it. Yeah.
Speaker 4
100% you
Speaker 1
know, which is, I think sort of how you repair anything is just conceding that you're probably wrong. And the nuance of it is maybe not precisely what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. And you also, the care for the person overrides the, I am, I hate to say that, but I am a Scorpio. I don't know. Don't do this. I know. Don't become this person. The trait, but the trait, the trait that they always talked about about being a Scorpio, my mother was really into astrology. And the thing was like when people turn on you, they're dead to you. Yeah.
Speaker 8
You
Speaker 1
don't, it's a forgiveness is a, is a
Speaker 4
difficult
Speaker 1
mode. But with our little
Speaker 4
story,
Speaker 1
it was like, no, I really care about Mike. And it was like, whatever happened in that moment, whenever we were involved in, it was a lesson for both of us. I think as a friend was the intent to say it, but it was definitely harsher than I wanted it to
Speaker 4
be.
Speaker 1
But ultimately in the, in the, in chapter six of it was,
Speaker 4
we like
Speaker 1
Mike, Mike, we love Mike. I can just like, why should that be? Why should we, we shouldn't linger and hang on that stuff? And even like today when I said, I call my wife, you know, in the morning and what's your day. And I said, she goes, who's podcast are you doing today? And I said, I'm going to do Mike. Mike, her big league is podcast. You went, Oh, Mike. And that says it all. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it was like, yeah, it was a, it was a weird spot, but I'm, I'm glad we got through it. Cause it's been other
Speaker 10
people that, you know, you don't come back to.
Speaker 1
So one of my faves this year was Hosden Minhaj. He has been a friend for a long time. Like I want to say like almost 10 years. One of my favorite comics, he's currently on tour in Chicago. He'll be in the Chicago theater. I'll be there in a few months as well. He'll be in Philadelphia, an amazing live performer. And we have a phenomenal chat is me and Hosden Minhaj. But the thing that you have, the secret special skill you have, that I feel like you don't sort of brag about is like you did that Obama thing and like you made fun of his playlist from the year.
Speaker 5
It's so funny. All right. And it's so bold because like, but
Speaker 2
is it though? Yes. But why is it?
Speaker 1
Yes.
Speaker 3
Because I would be like, oh no, like what if he just cuts this off?
Speaker 1
Oh, you know what
Speaker 5
I mean? What if he just, what if he goes cold? Okay. Don't you have
Speaker 1
that? Cause you have a thing in your, in your personality, which isn't in your off stage personality, which is your shit starter. You're on stage persona. Like you start things. Like that could be like, that could have made it bad. Yes, I could. You asked like one of the most influential people in the last century. Yes. Like, hey, by the way, there's no way you watch and listen to all this stuff. Yeah. And like that could go badly. What were you thinking in that moment?
Speaker 2
What was the calculation? So the calculation in that moment is like what I try to bring to these interviews, whether it's like President Obama or Prime Minister Trudeau or whatever, there has to be this like, so I have a tech start with all my boys that we grew up in high school together. So we, we, we've played basketball since we were in middle school. We're called, we're called hit squad. Okay. We played in like basketball. Yeah. Yeah, of course. You know, hit squad. And you've obviously heard of what we've done at the 24 hour fitness basketball leagues and the Sacramento, greater Sacramento area since the early 2000s. Lesser known stuff. Sure. Of course, hit squad. So hit squad, we're on a text thread. But there's always this thing of like, what would hit squad ask of me if they knew I you got to go meet Michael Jordan? Or I met Steven Spielberg. Yeah. They'd be like, how tall is he? Right. They would always ask you that sort of thing. So I always approach it from a very like, come on, bro, level with me. Yeah. Thing. And from a place of like, I'm not here to get you. Yes. Like I'm not here on behalf of the Wall Street Journal dot com. Right. To be like, Mr. Berbiglia, comedy is in an existential moment right now. And with the threat of democracy, do you feel like some of the, and you're like, okay, you're trying to corner me into like, yeah, giving you a sound bite on cancel culture. Yes. Got it. Like, I'm not interested in this. Yes. But if there was like, I tried to approach it from like, it's a very like, come on level with me question. Yeah. But it's also innocuous. It is a warm up joke. Oh, that's interesting. Do you really read all those books? Yeah. Really, like you read this book by Abdul Razak, Gurna. Yeah. Mr. President, what happened in tar? What happened? What was your favorite thing about tar? And you cannot say Cape Blanchett. So explain tar to me. That's very funny. And then if you can, then explain American healthcare to me. Like that sort of like, just level with me. And I think he could sense. Oh, he's like being real right now. Yes. Like, I'm just like, just fuck the lav mic. Like you, you really read all those 10 books. Yeah. Scribs Riley is one of your favorite artists of 2020. Yes.
Speaker 1
Really? Yeah. You know what I mean? You come
Speaker 2
away from it believing that he had. The moment where I believed him is where he goes, dude, how much time we got? And I was like, oh, oh, I like tried to check your cred. And you're like, don't, I think the music stuff, he was like, I'll let it slide where he's like, you think you're the guys are the only ones that listen to music. And you know, like irreverent stuff. But when I checked him on like, you don't read all that much, I think 44 felt, hey, hey, don't come at like my ability to read a briefing and like be an intellectually curious person. That's interesting. But my place was like, but we're both married guys with children. Like it was just too much. Right. Where's the time? Where's the fucking time? Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1
What, what wouldn't you
Speaker 2
ask him out of respect? So there was a thing at the very end of the interview called, let's not talk about it. Oh, really? Let's not talk about it. Yeah. But what I wanted to signal to him was like, I know this each of these is like an hour and a half conversation. Plus not talk about it. Yeah. So I also cashed it in a joke. So I had all these cards. And so one of the cards was like, it was like Guantanamo Bay. Let's not talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, Edward Snowden.
Speaker 1
So yeah.
Speaker 2
Drone strikes in Pakistan at a wedding. Let's not talk about it. Let's just not talk about it. Oh my God. And I was like, boxers, briefs, commandos in chief. And then he's like, let's not talk about it. I know classified. I know. So what I did is like what I wanted to do was each of these alone, they're major. Drone strikes is foreign policy and the war on terror. Right? This alone is like a two and a half hour conversation. Of course. But Snowden, like that alone privacy and all that's whistleblowing. That's a two hour conversation. Guantanamo, obviously in his campaign was like my first day in office. I'm going to close it. I was like, okay, we don't need to talk about it. But what I had to signal to him was like, I know. Into the audience. I know. This next one's a little
Speaker 1
bit of a cheat because it's technically from 2022. But it gets referenced to me so much that I was like, oh, if people haven't heard this, this episode with Zarnagarg is fantastic. And whereas she talks about her relationship with her daughter and her getting into comedy kind of later in her life than most people do. And I just love that I loved our chat. If you can see her live, absolutely do yourself a favor and see her live. She'll be in Vancouver February 22nd. This is me and Zarnagarg. I read your daughter's college essay, which now she's at Sanford. She's doing great. But at the time she wrote this college essay that they printed, published in the New York Times as one of the best college essays in the country. And I just found this so moving. This is your daughter, Zarnagarg. My mom finds a baffling delight from drinking from glass, hotel-grade water dispensers, even when three-day-old lemon rinds float in stale water, drinking from the dispenser remains luxurious. Last year for her birthday, I saved enough to buy a water dispenser for our kitchen counter. However, instead of water, I filled it with handwritten notes encouraging her to chase her dreams of a career. As I grew older, I noticed that my mom yearned to pursue her passions and to make her own money. She spent years as a stay-at-home mom and limited our household chores as much as she could, taking the burden upon herself so that my brothers and I could take on our education. However, I could tell from her curiosity of and attitudes towards women that she envied their financial freedom and the self-esteem that must come with it. When I asked her about working again, she would tell me to focus on achieving the American dream that I knew she had one stream for herself. For years, I watched her effortlessly light up conversations with both strangers and family, her empathy and ability to understand the needs, wants, and struggles of a diverse group of people empowered her to reach the hearts of every person at a dinner table, even when the story itself did not apply to them at all. She could make anyone laugh and I wanted her to be paid for it. I thought, mom, have you ever thought about being a stand-up comedian? She laughed at the idea but then started wondering
Speaker 7
loud about
Speaker 1
what she would joke about and how comedy shows were even booked. As she began dreaming of a comedy career, the reality of her current life as a stay-at-home mom sank in, she began to cry and told me it was too late for her. I could not bear to watch her struggle between ambition and doubt. Her birthday was coming up, although I already bought her a present, I realized what I actually wanted to give her was the strength to finally put herself first and take a chance. I placed little notes of encouragement inside the water dispenser. I asked my family and closest friends to do the same. These friends told her other friends and eventually I had grown a network of supporters who emailed me their admiration for my mom. From these emails, I hand-wrote 146 notes, crediting all of these supporters that also believed in my mom. Some provided me with sentences, others with five paragraph-long essays. Yet each note was an iteration of the same sentiment. You are hilarious, full of life, and ready to take on the stage. On the day of her birthday, my mom unwrapped, my oddly shaped present, and saw the water dispenser I bought her. She was not surprised that she had hinted at it for many years, but then, as she kept unwrapping, she saw that inside the dispenser there were these little notes that filled the whole thing. As she kept picking out and reading the notes, I could tell she was starting to believe what they said. She started to weep with her hands full of notes. She could not believe the support was real and that everyone knew she had a special gift and believed in her. Within two months, my mom performed her first set in a New York comedy club. Within a year, my mom booked a monthly headlining show at the nation's premier comedy club. I'm not sure what happened to the water dispenser, but I've read the notes with my mom countless times. They are framed and lined the walls of her new office space that she rented with the profits she made from working as a professional comedian. For many parents, their children's careers are their greatest accomplishment, but for me, my mom's is mine.
Speaker 10
Yeah, it's really
Speaker 6
emotional. Do hear it in your voice, do I?
Speaker 7
Okay, this just became a sad
Speaker 1
podcast. It really speaks to the idea of supporting your friends and family and helping them achieve what they want to be and what they want to do. For me, it's an inspiration for me and supporting my wife and daughter and what they want to do. And hopefully people hear this and think of it in relation to their own
Speaker 7
lives. Absolutely. I encourage it. I think my community has come up, come out in big numbers to support me. Without them, I wouldn't have a comedy career. Every time I didn't know what a bringer show was, but the first time a club told me, you need to bring five people or eight people
Speaker 1
or whatever.
Speaker 7
I was like, what will I do with the remaining 90? Because people in
Speaker 1
my world were so excited. Just to give context, that's a bringer show is when you have to essentially bring your own audience to the
Speaker 7
comedy club. Yeah, and usually people are stressed out about having to bring
Speaker 6
people.
Speaker 1
Yeah, and you're an outpouring of
Speaker 7
people. Because it's never been done. No Indian woman trashed her mother non-stage.
Speaker 6
The women came out from
Speaker 7
across state lines everywhere.
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