Mermaid metaphor and pronatalism critique

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins in this lively episode of Based Camp as they dive deep into Abigail Thorn’s (Philosophy Tube) latest video, “Why the Thought of Having Kids Freaks Me Out.” From a pronatalist perspective, they unpack Thorn’s arguments on demographic collapse, trans identity as a potential social contagion, global crises like Gaza, misinformation on birth control, and the entitlement of expecting societal “reparations” without contributing through parenthood. With humor, sharp critiques, and counterpoints rooted in cultural innovation, legacy, and family values, the Collinses explore why Thorn’s philosophy might reveal more about internal conflicts than solid reasoning. Whether you’re into philosophy, trans representation in pronatalism, or just love a good debate, this episode challenges urban monoculture norms and champions innovative approaches to family-building. Don’t miss their personal anecdotes, Shakespeare sonnet showdowns, and a nod to ContraPoints!

Episode Outline & Links

The Gist

Philosophy Tube did a two-parter on our turf in that she covered demographic collapse and having kids

* In the first part, titled “You’re Wrong About Birth Rates & Aging Populations” Philosophy Tube explored demographic collapse

* We did an episode on it.

* In this second video, she covered “Why The Thought of Having Kids Freaks Me Out”

* Strange Aeons and Vivian Wilson (Elon Musk’s trans child) make appearances (among others)

* Obviously we have to cover this too. Having kids is kind of our thing.

* In general, I think that with this video, Philosophy Tube is trying bring some trans representation to the surging debate about pronatalism and demographic collapse

* And while I had hoped we might be presented with some innovative, interesting proposals, especially involving advanced reprotech

* Instead, we are presented with an astounding level of entitlemenet—like, take the normal level of urban monoculture entitlement (i.e. how dare you suggest I give up vacations and takeout to have kids) and amp it up to a new level (literally: forget contributing to society through well-raised children; I deserve reparations for the state not funding my gender transition)

Let’s get into it!

Philosophy Tube’s Video Essay

The dramatic bit of the video is that for much of it Philosophy Tube dresses as a mermaid as an analogy to being trans and pontificates from a giant clamshell.

To put it diplomatically, the video ultimately legitimizes choosing not to have children while also critiquing the systems that make parenthood feel terrifying or impossible for many who might otherwise want it.

Right off the bat, the focus is on philosophy (fair, because this is Philosophy Tube) and not brass tacks. Thorn references Why Have Children? The Ethical Debate, a Book by Christine Overall, and also points people to explore David Benatar’s work.

She leans heavily on a UN report when exploring people’s reasons for not having babies

She explores the following factors on the yes/no-to-kids spectrum:

* Global crises and worries about the future

* Philosophy Tube connects fears about having kids to global crises such as war (especially Gaza) and the targeting or dehumanization of marginalized groups, including trans and autistic people, which makes the idea of raising a child feel unsafe or ethically fraught.

* Climate change

* She discounted this as a factor as it’s not up to her

* But she cites that people are concerned about their carbon footprints

* Fun aside: She indicated that BP ultimately introduced the concept of carbon footprint; she says BP paid hundreds of millions of dollars to popularize the concept

* Misinformation

* She argues people are being misinformed about birth control and becoming pregnant by mistake after being scared off of taking birth control

* She decries anti-vaccine rhetoric coming out of the Trump Administration

* The future

* Concerns about unemployment, housing, and cost.

* Philosophy Tube notes that even though she lives in the UK, access to services she would need to use (e.g. IVF in order to have kids as a trans woman)

* Moral obligation

* How many religious groups feel a religious imperative to have kids

* The idea of having a moral obligation to have kids if you don’t want one [BAD BAD IDEA], e.g. Jews after the Holocaust ought to have children even if they didn’t want them

* The idea that having kids pays for the elder care of one’s country’s citizens, so one is obligated to have kids

* Philosophy Tube sees other people’s kids subsidizing her health care in old age is “reparations” because she is trans and the government does not pay for all the gender transition care (i.e. she and other trans people deserve to be paid for in old age despite not having kids and through them paying into the system because they did not get the gender transition care they wanted the government to payroll)

* As Philosophy Tube puts it in the episode: “you’re goddamn right breeders are going to be paying for my retirement.”

* Enjoyment

* “By no means guaranteed”

* Legacy

* Lackluster desire to pass on genes

* Philosophy Tube notes that her career and acting legacy can’t be passed on, so that’s a point against having kids

* Notes that trans identity cannot be genetically passed on

* Refers to Sonnet No. 2 as a steelman but COMPLETELY overlooks Sonnet 18, which also neutralizes the acting legacy argument, too!

Talks about “Castration Movie”

* A movie about horrible trans people in which the protagonist, Traps, struggles with the knowledge that kids will no longer be possible due to gender-transition-driven infertility

* I think Philosophy Tube uses this essay to:

* Be supportive of other transgender media efforts

* Emphasize a major throughline in the essay about how gender norms shape expectations around motherhood and fatherhood, and how trans and queer people can feel especially conflicted about these roles.

What Philosophy Tube Misses About Why People Don’t Have Kids

* The absence of the economic benefit of having kids

* The importance of establishing an objective function

* Culture

* People starting later

Why Philosophy Tube Did This

She is not actually seriously considering kids because:

* It’s too expensive, especially for someone who is trans

* “The world is dangerous”

I think ultimately it comes down to Abby Thorne just valuing other things, and a key element of the essay is indeed recognition that “I just don’t want to” is a valid reason not to have children, and that people who don’t want kids should not feel pressured into it.

What I think this is all about:

* I think she feels insecure about not having kids and that insecurity was worked out in this two-part series

* I feel fairly confident this is the case because in my pre-Malcolm state, when presented with the issue, I would have been like: “Hey, good for the families who want kids; they should do them—I have nothing to do with this.”

What Does This Reveal About Why People Transition?

People often turn to academic research to determine why people transition and whether they’re transitioning for “genuine reasons” (e.g. ‘I am a man born in a woman’s body’) or due to social contagion.

For example: A new study of 957 detransitioners in the U.S. and Canada that identifies four distinct patterns of why people detransition and how they feel about their transitions, then reflects on what this implies for social contagion, detransition politics, and trans health norms

Interrupted Gender Transitions and Detransitions in the USA and Canada

Published: 05 November 2025

* The study used latent class analysis on survey data from people who had stopped, shifted, or reversed a gender transition (or wanted to but could not), recruited widely online and through LGBTQ+/gender clinics. It identifies four groups: “satisfied” detransitioners, coerced detransitioners, “complicated cases,” and “regretters,” each with different reasons for detransition, mental health profiles, and demographic patterns

* In this study’s sample of people who interrupted or reversed a gender transition, the most typical profile was someone assigned female at birth (AFAB), often still identifying as transgender or gender diverse, whose detransition was closely tied to mental health factors and changes in gender self-identity.

* In this sample, the single most commonly endorsed broad reason for detransition was mental health–related factors and changes in self-identity, which together defined the largest latent class (Class A, 316 of 957 participants)

Ultimately, people detransition for all sorts of reasons and the article is not a strong “gotcha” for anyone in terms of damning evidence, HOWEVER, I think Philosophy Tube’s video is a stronger gotcha for the cultural contagion hypothesis for the rise in gender transition.

Episode Transcript

Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm. I’m excited to be with you today because Philosophy Tube did a two-parter on our turf pun intended topic Yes. About demographic collapse and having kids in the, in the first part, titled You’re Wrong About Birth Rates and Aging Populations which we covered in a separate episode.

Philosophy two AKA Abigail Thorn. Did an an episode on demographic apps and. Then she ended it with like this whole skid about how I’m pregnant. And now here’s the second part, and it’s about having kids. And,

Malcolm Collins: and, and why, what what, what I found so interesting is, so this episode comes out Yeah. I.

I could not bring myself to watch it. I found the first one so intolerable but I really wanted to know what happens in it. So I’m so glad I have Simone to regale me. But the funniest thing is, is so she watches it. The day that she watches it, she goes to me, ‘cause we’re doing our walk and talk that day, and she goes, oh my god.

She [00:01:00] basically admits that being trans is a social contagion in this episode without realizing it. Because she interviews a bunch of other people about this. .

Simone Collins: I was just surprised by how she took out the big odds with this. Like, strange Aons makes an appearance and I’m like, oh God, wait, because we love Strange the YouTuber.

Yeah. Vivian Musk, or sorry, v Vivian Wilson, she wants to disassociate from Musk, but that Elon Mu Musk’s trans child is in it. She it, it is titled just in Case you wanna watch it yourself, why the thought of having kids Freaks me out. And so obviously we have to cover it because having kids is kind of our thing.

Not to gatekeeper anything but not to gate keep. I love it how that became our turf. Come on. In general, I, I think that this, this in this video philosophy too is, is trying. To bring some like trans representation to this surging debate about tism and demographic apps. And, and at first I got kind of excited about the, [00:02:00] the fact that philosophy Tube was doing this, right?

Because like this, there, there we could be presented with some innovative or interesting proposals, especially involving advanced rep tech because here we’re talking about. Clearly like biological innovation, right? Abigail Thorn is, is doing all sorts of things to to, to become the type of person that Abigail wants to be.

And, and, and when it comes to reproducing, has that can have babies, I mean.

There, there are ways, historically, there are ways in which being trans can be very interesting, especially from a prenatal standpoint. And, you know, when we first even got into tism, we’re like, how do we make this movement one that is gay, like L-G-B-T-Q, trans, like all of it inclusionary. And, and yet instead in this video we’re, we’re, we’re basically presented with an.

Astounding level of entitlement. Like take the normal level of urban monoculture [00:03:00] entitlement. Like how dare you suggest I give up vacations and takeout to have kids and then amp it up to a whole new level. Like literally forget contributing to society through well raised children. I deserve reparations from the state for not funding my gender transition.

Like that’s the level we’re at. And, and quite Wait, did she actually

Malcolm Collins: say she needed reparations from the state because the state, or rather the citizens, the non-trans people, didn’t fund her operation?

Simone Collins: Yes, you did. And we’re gonna get into it. So let’s what I know. I know, I know, I know. Yes. So anyway, let’s, let’s dive right in because I’m so excited.

So this, this video essay part two of the whole Tism series the, the dramatic bit of the video, because this is a philosophy too. A lot of people on our first video on this, when we talked about her first part, were like, oh Abigail Thorn just [00:04:00] wishes to be like counterpoints. And, and both of them have these very dramatically lit long Phil philosophical video essays with great costumes, fantastic makeup.

The dramatic bit to this particular philosophy Tube essay involves Abigail Thorn. Dressing up as a mermaid being, you know, analogous to being trans as, as Abigail Pontificates from a giant seashell or clamshell about sort of the, the trans approach to having children while using a lot of fish puns and I love puns.

So, I, I, I. Don’t necessarily mind any of it. Well,

Malcolm Collins: you know what’s interesting about this analogy that, that you probably aren’t thinking about.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: It’s that Phish do like inception was in phish happens external to the body. Like they don’t I know. Well,

Simone Collins: no, it’s very apt. It’s very apt

Malcolm Collins: as it would Yeah.

Happen for a trans woman.

Simone Collins: Well, foreign even like, talks about the fact that, you know, as a mermaid, thorn doesn’t reproduce like normal people. No, it is [00:05:00] very apt. Like it’s, it’s a fanta like, I think that that’s well executed. You gotta give credit where credit’s due. But to put it diplomatically, the, the video ultimately legitimizes choosing not to have children while also critiquing the systems that make parenthood feel terrifying or impossible for many who might other, you told me

Malcolm Collins: the first thing she says was because of Gaza.

Simone Collins: Pretty, pretty much, I mean, right off the bat, the focus is on philosophy, which is fair because this is philosophy too. But actually the first thing she mentions is, is a reference to why have children the ethical debate, a book by Christine overall, and then immediately she points people to David Beitar.

And it’s like, I’m not gonna get into it, but watch this video about him. So like, immediately, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s philosophy. So it, it’s very abstracted from like brass tacks in reality. And it’s, by the way, antinatalism, check it out. Yo she also leans heavily on a UN report. That it explores people’s reasons for not having babies.

But yeah, one, the first sort of big theme that is explored philosophically in the video [00:06:00] is global crises and, and concerns about the future being a major reason why people don’t have children. Whereas, I mean, from our research, it’s really why people say they don’t have children when they don’t have children yet.

But really, it’s not an actual reason why people don’t have children. But yes, she. Absolutely connects fears about having kids to global crises such as war, especially Gaza and, and the targeting or dehumanization of marginalized groups, including trans and autistic people. What does this

Malcolm Collins: have

Simone Collins: to

Malcolm Collins: do with

Simone Collins: kids?

I don’t

Malcolm Collins: understand.

Simone Collins: How does she, nothing. Well, no, she, she says, she says in the video that she doesn’t like the idea of, of bringing any child into the world where this could happen to any child.

Malcolm Collins: But it’s not gonna happen to her. She’s not gonna have a child.

Simone Collins: Gaza. The UK government is funding this kind of.

Conflict. But yeah, no, like this is about Gaza. This is where I was like, oh, this is where I feel like Philosophy Tube is giving us a, a greater [00:07:00] argument as to why being trans is a social contagion than like a lot of the research on Detransition. Because I just feel like this is, this shows the extent to which.

The major life choices and, and the way that that Abigail Thorn relates to the world is so divorced from reality and so tied to like political aesthetics and philosophical aesthetics and concepts that, you know, this, this isn’t about reality anymore. It’s about signaling and affiliation. And that, that.

That’s what’s going on. It’s not some like deep inherent thing. It, it’s so divorced. But let’s, let’s continue to go through some of these arguments. Miss. No, but I’m

Malcolm Collins: actually, I wanna, I wanna start, start. Okay. Go ahead. Bad things are happening somewhere else. Uhhuh, therefore, I won’t have kids. Here is a genuinely perplexing argument.

Well, what makes it

Simone Collins: even worse is, is a big a [00:08:00] thing that, that, that thorn points out too, is, is. I, I don’t like that my country is contributing to this violence as in like the UK is contributing to the war. Oh. So she’s

Malcolm Collins: either just like punishing her country. Like if

Simone Collins: you, if, if, if tho chooses to not have children and then those children don’t, you know, adopt thorn’s philosophy and, and change society for the better.

Then theoretically this continued violence against children elsewhere that, that Thorn is concerned about will continue. So that’s another problem I have. It’s like, okay, well if you have an issue with it, then you also need to contribute toward something different. Yeah. Presumably. So you are gonna see a lot of that in this where thorn will present an argument and I feel like.

If, if you use the same, the very same evidence or calculus that Thorn is using. You can neutralize the argument made like no, actually if bad things are happening in the [00:09:00] world, as you’ve cited mm-hmm. The argument should be for having kids because by having kids that create a better world, you can stop the bad thing like this is

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah.

The thing is, is that kids are likely, as we point out, a 80% of Republican parents have Republican kids. 90% of Democratic parents have democratic kids. And, and kids move. Sometimes we’re conservative of the age. You just change it based on the generation. The point being is she is denying the generation somebody who is more likely to be anti Gaza.

Yeah. Whereas people who do not care are having the same amount of kids that they did historically. Often.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But again, we, we need to, it, a better argument is to do this on the terms that Thorne is using. Thorne is arguing based on like these philosophical approaches, and I think the more important thing is, okay, well the, the philosophical approach here is.

World bad. I don’t wanna bring a kid into a bad world, especially a, a world that is contributing to the badness. Whereas using that very same line of reasoning, that [00:10:00] is exactly why we should be wanting to have kids, is if world bad. We need to have kids that make the world. Better. But another big thing that thorn points to is misinformation.

Thorn argues that people are being misinformed about birth control and becoming pregnant by mistake after being scared off taking birth control. And Thorn also decries anti-vaccine rhetoric coming out of the Trump administration. I think that this was brought up in the video because of some like, like we shouldn’t have kids.

Because when we do get pregnant, it’s by mistake or because of misinformation. Well,

Malcolm Collins: I think this is a really interesting point. And I think it shows you their wider world perspective. Yeah. And so it’s, it’s worth, it’s worth drilling on a bit. Okay. And the urban monocultural perspective, pregnancy is a scary thing that you’re trying to avoid, right?

Like you are going out and you’re having lots of sex for fun. That is the main context at which [00:11:00] you have related to pregnancy. Since you are a child, it’s the scariest, it’s the consequence of your actions, right? It’s the big scary consequence to your lifestyle that you are terrified of. I actually was watching a video by, or whatever. I forget the second season of peacemaker. Okay. And it’s pretty good. I, I actually like peacemaker. I think it’s pretty good Republican representation. But anyway, what’s

Simone Collins: the one with that sociopathic younger dude who’s so funny?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I love him. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Great. Okay. But in one scene and then, oh no, it wasn’t, it wasn’t peacemaker.

It was the, this was in the monster the DC Comics Monster world thing that they had on HBO. Anyway, it doesn’t matter on one scene. They were talking about how somebody who he was in the room was, was radioactive, right? Mm. Like due to their superpowers. And the guy within like, like enough that I have to worry.

And the guy was like, oh just consider it a free vasectomy. Like this, this would be just a, a pure benefit, a surprise vasectomy. Right. But in their world it [00:12:00] is in their world, just somebody’s zapping you with a, like, like eugenics is like actually good. Right? Right. And so. And so when they see what they see as like a misinformation, the Republican administration keep in mind what they think of like Republican voters or people who aren’t on their team, they think of them, especially women who aren’t on their team.

Right? Because they really look down on Republican women. They think of them as like hapless idiots who are obedient to men. And these hapless idiots who just you know, they, they, they do this with terms like, pick me and stuff like that when they’re talking about these women. Mm-hmm. They think that like they’re just getting duped into, you know, not being on birth control so they can enjoy their rightful daily sex amount.

Simone Collins: No, no. The argument that Thorn used in this was oh, you know, I was on birth control until I heard on social media. That it would make me infertile and gay. And so I went to the natural rhythm method and immediately fell pregnant. That was the example that she used.

Malcolm Collins: Well, that’s exactly the point I made using here, Simone, I’m pointing out that she thinks of [00:13:00] these conservative women who use things like natural rhythm as just like completely idiots.

Oh. In like that they’re just. Hapless fools and that they should be, you know, having sex all the time. EGI, moving to the natural rhythm method instead of, you know, as people saw in the recent Nick Fuentes what, what, what was it? PI Morgan debate, right? Mm-hmm. Where Pierce Morgan is like chastising Nick Fuentes for being a virgin, and yet Nick Pi Morgan is also purportedly a Catholic, right.

You know? Mm-hmm. Presumably he doesn’t believe you should be having sex before marriage either. And yet he’s so normalized to this perspective that he’s chastising Nick over it. And the idea of not having sex isn’t even an option in their lives. It’s not even a, you know, a, a, a possibility.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Yeah, perhaps. Okay. Well then maybe that explains it. I, I, I, I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t know why, why that was still brought up in the question of to have kids or to not have kids. But another big one that, that, [00:14:00] or theme that is brought up is concerns about the future like unemployment and housing and costs.

And Thorn notes that even though. She lives in the uk, access to services that she would need to use like IVF in order to have kids as a trans woman. Is is expensive or not an option like the, the state It would be, it would be very expensive if thorn were to have children. Then, then the argument shifts to moral obligation, like.

A lot of people have a feel that they have a religious imperative to have kids, but then she, she argues that, I don’t know, they, they end up miserable. I think that’s, that’s pretty much where she, she ends up on that that the idea of having a moral obligation to have kids. If you don’t want one.

Which we would argue is a bad idea that, that she points to, for example, like Jews after the Holocaust might be an example of this. And, and people have [00:15:00] philosophically argued like, well, you as a Jew have an imperative. I don’t know

Malcolm Collins: any Jew who I’ve ever met who has kids, who doesn’t, isn’t glad they have kids.

Yeah. Like who, who

Simone Collins: didn’t, who doesn’t want them, but has them because I’m a Jew and therefore the Holocaust. Yeah, it’s, it’s really awesome. They have this

Malcolm Collins: additional moral imperative, which I think sort of created something like tism, like a proto tism within the Jewish community. Hmm. And so it, it like made sense for them, Uhhuh.

But I think that there’s also this idea of like the, the Holocaust matters more from an us versus them perspective than it does from a, we need to breed for whatever reason. Like the, the, the progressive Jews aren’t having kids because of the Holocaust, right? Yeah. Like they’re having kids because they want little things to show off to other people.

You know, it’s, it’s the conservative Jews that are having kids go to the Holocaust and they genuinely. Are pretty happy parents from what I’ve seen.

Simone Collins: From what I’ve seen too. Yeah. And, and, but then Thorn is like, well, this doesn’t apply to me because I’m trans and I can’t pass on my [00:16:00] transness as if like that that is thorn’s identity.

Like the thing that, that would need, like my group. Essentially like her Judaism is being trans, and if she can’t pass on being trans, then this argument doesn’t apply to her. That’s

Malcolm Collins: fascinating. Yeah. I mean, what is telling that this is a social contagion?

Simone Collins: Exactly. Again, like I just feel like this is such an interestingly un unexpectedly telling argument.

Oh. Also what I found interesting is, you know, a lot of people do point to concerns about climate change as a reason to not have children, but actually thorn just. Totally discounts that as a factor because it’s not up to the individual imperative. She actually decries even the very concept of the carbon footprint pointing to the fact and I, and this is not illegitimate, but pointing to the fact that British petroleum ultimately.

Paid hundreds of millions of dollars to both manufacture and popularize the concept of the carbon footprint. And that is just manipulative. So this [00:17:00] is, I, I, I feel like this contributes to this episode. I do love that

Malcolm Collins: she pointed out. So, so she pointed out that the carbon footprint was invented by a, a PR firm that’s paid, what was it?

Like $500 million? Oh, goodly

Simone Collins: matter, like the really, really good one I wanted to work for it. When I was in college, I was like, Ooh, wow, someday, Ooh,

Malcolm Collins: carbon footprint. And it was specifically invented to remove responsibility from reducing. Environmental, like carbon gases from companies to individuals. Yeah.

It

Simone Collins: shifted the burden to individuals. And Thorne is like, Uhuh. Don’t you do that? Like, this is your fault. This is on you. I mean, I I don’t think that’s illegitimate. It’s just that this is another example though. ‘Cause I really, we have to do this episode on how environmentalism is over, unless apparently, or a high school student, in which case it’s like super alive and well.

But that like people. On every end. Like Greta Thunberg, the, the, the mascot of environmentalism now only cares about Gaza. Abigail Thorn is like, ah, yeah, like, don’t worry about sustainability when it comes to having kids. When this used to be the main thing cited, like Harry and Meghan were like, well, we’re not gonna have more than two kids because the environment, [00:18:00] our carbon footprints, right?

And here you have Abigail Thorn, a progressive. Leader saying, no, actually that’s not at all a relevant factor. This is not an individual choice thing. You have Bill Gates shifting funding away from his climate related nonprofit initiatives with the Gates Foundations to just stuff focused around human wellbeing.

Clearly there’s something really interesting happening with environmentalism and in a separate episode I wanna get into that, but I do wanna point out that this is another area where she’s like, nah, this isn’t a factor. So, passing on her particular culture, which is. Trans culture, apparently nothing else like that is what defines Abigail form.

Just so interesting. Again, it is interesting

What’s fascinating is that she does seem to intuit very deeply that having kids is about passing on who you are to the next generation. But the only thing that is meaningfully left of who she is, her trans identity. She has nothing else, and she’s sort of conceding here. If she could pass that on to the next [00:19:00] generation through having kids, she would.

, So she’s showing that she understands why people have kids, the purpose of having kids, but that she has nothing left of who she is other than transness. And this is what we mean when we talk about it as being like an ideology that eats away at your self identity till there’s nothing left.

This actually reminds me a lot of the episode we did on those feminists who will abort any male child that they’re carrying because they only want to have female children. , The idea of being deeply obsessed with passing your gender to the next generation or gender identity to the next generation because that is the lens through which you see all reality, seems to show that you need to adopt this twisted perspective.

To accept the trans identity, at least in the way that Abigail Thorn has. , Which is like, you could be like, oh, well, you know, you wanna pass your gender. No, I don’t, I don’t care if I have boys or [00:20:00] girls. In fact, we have half boys, half girls, and I really, , you know, I see them as different based on their gender in the ways that they present differently.

But it’s not a deeply important thing to me. It is a weird, weird, and in a way, almost deeply. Conservative in like a historic context, like I am obsessed with the gender of my child, , is troubling way to see reality , and sad. Rather, it shows that when, at least whenever Miguel Sorn identifies as trans, she’s not just saying, I feel more like a female. She’s saying I feel primarily or only like a female. Like that is the core of her identity through the fact that that’s the only thing she cares about passing on to the next generation.

Well, that and her career, but we’ll get to that in a second.

Malcolm Collins: and it’s also interesting that none of these arguments actually have to do with the wellbeing of the child. The child’s wellbeing and perspective seem completely irrelevant to her outside of it being a prop. Never. Never to reaffirm her own [00:21:00] self-image. Yeah.

Which I think is what we’re, it is not, and this is, this is the key thing that that actually is so important about the idea of transness, of the social contagion. Yeah. It is not. The, the core of the social contagion. Is not wanting to be a different gender or even the idea that you can be a different gender.

Yeah. It’s that the purpose is your life, the purpose of who you are and the core of your being is a role that other people see in you would be that role you, you know, to her when she looks at a Jewish person. She’s like, oh, the core of who they are is a Jew, which is like an act, it’s like a, a set of, in the same way that I’m acting like a woman, they’re acting like a Jew, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that isn’t the way that most cultures see or relate to identity. If there were like

Simone Collins: a list of things I identify as like woman would be one of.

Malcolm Collins: Last thing. Absolutely. One of the last. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I find this like really [00:22:00] fascinating because I think it lays bare, a problem that a lot of conservatives make when they talk on this issue is they attack things like somebody wanting to appear a different gender or the, the areas in which they you know, go over other people’s social boundaries like in a restroom or something like that, or Yeah, whatever women’s prisons and stuff.

Whereas I think that that direct distracts from the more important point at least in terms of the really bad psychological health you see within the trans community with 50% attempting down alive themselves.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: You know, that that is coming downstream of when I wake up every day and I’m like, why am I alive?

What WW. My answer is to play X role and to have other people see me as X role. And I think that this also explains why people, misgendering them, hurts them so much. If your entire purpose, the only reason you exist is to play a specific role, and that is affirmed through other [00:23:00] people saying, yes, I see you in that role, somebody.

Not seeing you in that role is the most cutting thing that an individual can do to you. Hmm. Whereas to somebody like me, I don’t really care if you see me in X or Y role. The role that I inhabit is simply the role that I think will be most efficacious in achieving my goals for humanity and society.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like I was, I was misgendered in. A New York bar once when I had that really short hair, remember? Mm-hmm. I was so thrilled because the entire reason we had both decided it would be optimal for me to have really short hair would be for people to see me more like a man and take us more seriously as like an investment prospect.

And so I was thrilled because again, it’s instrumental. It is you know, we wanted to, the more masculine I was seen as being, the more we knew from like research, the more competent I would be seen as being. Which is also why we started [00:24:00] wearing big, chunky glasses. People wouldn’t like us as much. They wouldn’t see us as approachable or attractive.

Yeah. But they would see us as smarter. Of that, and we’re competent because of that. And that would benefit us more given the strategic needs we had in life. But anyway, let me, let me take it back to the moral obligation part of Lauren’s argument, because this is where after discounting the whole passing down your, I guess like identity group’s legacy, be it Jew or trans person, thorn discusses the idea that having kids.

Pays for the elder care of one’s country’s citizens, so therefore one is obligated to have kids. And philosophy Tube sees other people’s kids as subsidizing her healthcare in old age as reparations. Because she is trans and the government does not pay for all the gender transition care that, that she needs, like she and other trans people deserve to be for old age [00:25:00] despite not having kids

Malcolm Collins: despite not contributing to society or making the sacrifices that parents are making, they, and this, I think, shows the point.

She thinks that the role. That she desires to play, like the role that she has adopted for herself within society mm-hmm. Is almost sort of like a divine calling and that it should be respected by every other cultural group which the government is taking money from to give to her.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But as, and like, she literally, as she puts it in the episode that she’s, she’s like flippant and joking about it, but she’s also totally serious kind of about the reparations thing.

She’s like, your goddamn right breeders are gonna be paying for my retirement. And I’m like, oh, okay. You’ve made your point. So anyway her steelman arguments for having kids are incredibly weak to just, it, it shows that. I don’t think it shows that sh that she doesn’t actually want kids. In fact, I’m about to argue that she actually really does want kids.

Ooh. Oh. But she hasn’t thought through why. And you can tell this by the [00:26:00] Steelman argument. So the first is she’s like, well, the only, the only thing is like maybe enjoyment which she points out is by no means guaranteed as she puts it. So like, okay, well we can’t then. Choose to have children for enjoyment because that’s not a guarantee.

So then the other one that she points to is legacy. Though she personally has a lackluster desire to pass on jeans again because she’s the only trans person in her family and she feels like she’s not necessarily gonna have more trans. So again, very interesting that she’s like, well, how like trans is the entire identity, apparently not

Malcolm Collins: trans is the the, and I think she

Simone Collins: likes her family.

Like that’s the crazy thing is I don’t think she hates. Her family, but just like, apparently everything else that’s not trans about her is not really worth passing on. And then, and then philosophy dub also notes that like, okay, if we’re talking legacy and it’s not genes, then like, maybe her career, but she, she argues that her career and acting legacy can’t be passed [00:27:00] on.

So that, that’s a point. Against having kids. But here’s the really crazy thing, Malcolm. And here’s another example of where the same philosophical arguments, or same like evidence bits that she uses. Could also equally be used against her because she then points in a very sort of dramatic moment because she’s also an actor and as an actor has to be very dramatic.

She refers to and, and, and quotes some of Shakespeare’s sonnet number two as a steelman, which apparently sort of refers like looking in a kid’s eyes and, and sort of seeing that as like a pathway to legacy, right? And I, I don’t know, sonnet number two. But ironically, I, I only know and have memorized one sonnet by Shakespeare sonnet number 18 which also talks about eternal life essentially.

It, it, it, it is a, it’s a love poem. It’s, it’s the one that’s, shall I compare the two A summer’s day? More lovely and more temperate, et cetera. [00:28:00] Right. So it’s, it’s comparing a lover to summer. Mm-hmm. But then it, it talks about eternity. So, gosh shall I, shall I compare the two summers day that want more lovely and more temperate?

Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May and Summer’s, Lisa, all too short a date. So like. You know, ah, like summer kind of sucks. The weather’s bad. How do you know this? But blah, blah, blah. But, but thy eternal summer shall not fade. Nor shall I lose possession of fair. Thou os nor shall death brag thou wrest in his shade for eternal lines to time.

Thou grows so long as men can breathe, their eyes can see so long lives this and this gives life to thee. You see what he’s saying there? He’s saying basically, as long as this poem lives. Your legacy shall live. So the argument of the sonnet, I mean, i, I, I don’t know analysis of it. My mom just made me memorize it as a kid.

‘Cause she loved Shakespeare. What, what, what Shakespeare I think is saying here is like, Hey, I’m a famous dude. I’m writing this poem. This poem’s gonna live [00:29:00] well beyond the two of us and this poem’s gonna live forever. So my love for you, as expressed through this poem, is aligned to eternity and eternal life, and you will be forever young and beautiful in this poem.

Unlike. A capricious summer day with changing weather. The, the sun’s too hot. The, the wind’s too powerful. It sucks. And this very argument points to the fact that no, actually this acting legacy that Abigail Thorn is trying to build, and Abigail Thorn’s ideas are a, a lasting legacy that absolutely can be reinforced and strengthened through children.

So I just personally feel like. Okay, we, we’ve thrown in Shakespeare, sonnets, I, I see your sonnet number two and I raise you sonnet 18. And I’m just like, again, miffed by this whole thing. But here’s where we get to why I think Philosophy Tube is having this argument in the first place. And why I think Philosophy Tube.

Actually really wants children. Which is, before

Malcolm Collins: we get to that, I wanna go into something because I thought it was really interesting. [00:30:00] Hmm. When she talks about her identity, when she’s like, and, and, and in a way this is why you have kids to pass on something. You know, I think legacy is like not legacy for a selfish.

But because I like who I am and what I represent and what my people represented, I want more of that in the future. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That’s how you motivate reproduction. That’s why people have kids, right? And that once you are infected with this ideology, the only two things that she was able to think of as meaningfully her.

Is her, I gender her identity as a trans woman. Yeah. And her career.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And nothing else. And that is so the core of the urban monoculture and how it works when you meet somebody, you ask what’s your job? And you present with what’s your gender. Mm-hmm. And the other things that many people would consider more core to who they are, their philosophy, why they live, you know, what they’re fighting for, their, their culture, their et cetera.

None of this stuff is actually important to her. Right. None of this stuff. She doesn’t have a wider purpose in life [00:31:00] other than, and you can see this with her channel, other than asking out her role, which is I think a deeply sad thing, but it shows that I think that this spreads beyond just talking about like a transit division, like the trans community to the wider urban monoculture to many young people who are raised in it.

When you say like, what are you? Who are you? They say, my job and my gender.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. But I still think in the end that philosophy Tube does feel deeply conflicted about not having children. And I think this because the way she has chosen to engage with this debate to make a video and solidify her stance, to add her stance to the, the blockchain of.

Online social discourse in this very methodical and dramatic way is because there is this [00:32:00] cognitive dissonance that Thorn is now trying to resolve officially by being like, and here are all the reasons why I’m, I’m not doing it and I’m right to make this decision. And I say this because I grew up and, and spent my young adult life at least being fully and extremely happy to.

Live alone, never get married, never have kids. And I never ever felt mm-hmm. A need to defend my stance on this or even to debate it. I was just like, it’s not for me. It’s not for, yeah. Nobody

Malcolm Collins: was ever like, oh yeah, that’s bad.

Simone Collins: Good. Yeah. Good for, good for anyone who wants to do this. And like, it was so like, I, I just found the discourse.

Too oppressively boring to even wanna be involved with. Like, it’s just not my domain. Like I’m not gonna talk about football because I don’t care. Okay. And there are people who will talk about, like their entire channels devoted to this TV channels and, and like, and publications and all this, right?

There’s constant streaming of sports and I have nothing to do with it. And it is many people’s [00:33:00] lives and careers and everything. And they’re dying over it. And every, like, all, you know, like industries, right? And the same exists with families and children and all that. This isn’t the only reason why people get involved in this is because they care.

Mm-hmm. And I do know of some, I like, there’s, there’s a dink podcast out there. I don’t think it has a lot of following. But like two girls do it. And, and a lot of it’s just sort of about like how much they enjoy, like having disposable income and stuff. And I don’t think they feel cognitive dissonance around having kids because it’s generally, it, it’s genuinely about the euphoria.

It’s like, I love having all this money and freedom, like this feels so good. And that’s how I felt. But I, I didn’t really think about it. Like, in contrast to having kids. I was just like, I love my life. Like, I love not having to answer to anyone and having flexibility, blah, blah, blah. Like, it’s great. And like I do think then that there are some people who talk at least about just like dink or childless [00:34:00] discourse about just how great it is. But what Thor is talking about here is like. All the reasons why people are trying to argue. You should have kids like Legacy and all these other things and trying to tear it down, but unsuccessfully.

So in my opinion at least and I also know of other YouTubers who, who regularly talk about their choice to be child free. From this very defensive standpoint of like, I feel so much like people are always asking me like, when am I gonna have kids? And like, I feel so criticized and so. Look down upon for this.

And, and you get this feeling too from Thorn in, in this essay of like, that there’s this feeling of defensiveness. Like, society thinks that I’m letting it down. No society owes me reparations. Like that comes from a very defensive place. Yeah. And I’m like, dude, no one asked you like you. Again, she’s on our turf.

And I get off my lawn lady. Get

Malcolm Collins: off my lawn lady. I love you, Simone. No, but it’s, it’s it’s interesting when people [00:35:00] talk on this subject because I wanna be like, what’s the, what’s the state of the public conversation? Yeah. How are different people relating to this? You know, what’s, what’s going, what’s going through the public’s mind on this topic?

And she is a popular. You know,

Simone Collins: way more famous than us, like, absolutely. And I, I’m just a little disappointed because we, we actually do personally know trans people who are having kids right now who, who are starting families, who are like absolutely involved in Tism and in really interesting, cool ways.

And, and now I’m, I’m, I’m just about to start outlining an an episode on, on cyber feminism and xeno feminism and like I’m all about like. Gender innovation and gender play in weird ways because what is that, that is cultural innovation in an age of, of, of technological and geopolitical and everything.

Disruption, right? Mm-hmm. Like absolutely I am [00:36:00] for weird approaches to tism and I’m for a critical approach to everything related to fertility and society and all that. And, and while you and I have our concerns about trans culture in general and like the way it exists now, I don’t think you and I inherently or like deeply philosophically have anything against like.

Being gender weird, like whatever, you know, like, just like maybe don’t, don’t build your life as you’ve been pointing out repeatedly, like around an identity, like what is this? Like how, how is trans the thing she thinks she needs to pass on or not pass on? Like how is that? I just

Malcolm Collins: like, you could pass it on.

I mean, we’ve seen a lot of, there’s those families where they get like, they adopt a bunch of kids and they all end up trans.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, and yeah, like, so yeah. And see that’s another example is it just really bothers me that like every time she argues like, well. Like she, she makes a philosophical argument.

We could use the same argument against her. And that really also bothers me. It’s like, no, actually people pass on transness all the time ‘cause it’s a cultural contagion. But I guess she can’t, I [00:37:00] she do that.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But, but, but what’s interesting is. And this is what’s so fascinating.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You could attempt to pass on a culture that accepted trans people, like a culture in which trans people are part of how you relate to gender, how you relate to sexuality.

Yeah. Well, and

Simone Collins: also culture in which you you know, include in your nationalized healthcare gender affirming care. Like if Thorn feels like she deserves reparations for having the state not pay for that. Then create a generation of people who will pay for gender affirming care. Right. But

Malcolm Collins: the, the point here being is, okay, she could have passed on the culture in which trans as a concept exists.

Ah, mm-hmm. Okay. Yes. But, and I think that this sort of proves that it’s a cultural contagion that. Is meaningless to her. You do not accept that culture in a meaningful way to her unless you are yourself trans. Hmm. The culture in [00:38:00] which the trans framework exists is not meaningfully passed on unless it is passed on alongside a trans identity from her perspective.

Hmm. Which I think lets the cat outta the bat.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Yikes. Yeah. Do you see

Malcolm Collins: what I mean by that, Simone?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Other cultures would, would say something like that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That like you, it’s not enough to accept me. You have to be me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You, you. It is not enough to accept. My unique sexual or gender representation or accept a culture that has this gender and sexual orientation in, in many ways, it’s, it’s very much like the parents who hate their kid for like being gay or something like this, right?

Mm-hmm. Where it’s, I’ve only meaningfully passed it on to the next generation if they have the same orientation I have. Yeah. And, and, and these specifically here, I’m talking about the parents who hate their kids who are being gay, not for like religious reasons or whatever, but just because they see it as like effeminate and not like [00:39:00] them.

Right. Like mm-hmm. It’s, it’s, it’s the exact same energy.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I, I, I honestly wish that I could. Meet Thorn in person and just. Talk and like better understand the approach taken. Like this episode, there’s so many mysteries in it. Like I didn’t even talk about this huge diversion in the episode that go, that is dedicated toward discussion of a small independent film called Castration Movie.

Which is about basically horrible trans people in which the protagonist called Traps struggles with the knowledge that kids will no longer be possible due to their gender transition driven infertility. Wait, among other things, tell me about this. I’m unaware of this. I, well, I, I just like, it’s such a, like, I’m like, why did you throw this in?

I don’t understand. There’s, there’s a

Malcolm Collins: group of people called, who call themselves Traps. No,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, no. That’s the protagonist of the independent film [00:40:00] Castration movie. Which Philosophy Tube uses in this essay to, I think primarily just be supportive of other transgender media efforts, but also like emphasize a major through line about how gender norms shape expectations around motherhood and fatherhood and how like trans and queer people can feel especially conflicted about these roles.

But. It just, it’s, it’s very distracting. It, it’s a, it’s a weird diversion and, and it doesn’t, I don’t think she quite brings it home in her video essay the way that maybe she would want to. But I don’t know. I mean, at least I feel like I, I was able to gr more of this particular video essay of Philosophy Tubes than most of the ones that I watch.

‘cause typically I just get totally lost, whereas like, maybe because I feel so much ownership of this particular. Philosophical domain, not ownership, but at least I’ve spent so much time sitting in it that like I was able to engage with it better than like some other things that have been [00:41:00] discussed on the channel.

I don’t know. Yeah, I didn’t even mention that whole thing. Like that was like what castration movie? Why are we talking about castration movie? This is, she’s no contra points, I’ll tell you that. It’s everyone in the audience. No, none of us can be contra points. And I know you don’t want me to say that because like our audience probably hates contra points too.

But. I listen, I heard. No, I understand.

Malcolm Collins: Apparently there’s like a bunch of rumors that, like early on when she transitioned philosophy tube, she tried to like look and act and sound exactly like contra points.

Simone Collins: I wanna look and act and sound like contra points just lick some salt. I, our audience isn’t gonna

Malcolm Collins: love you for that one.

Simone. She’s pretty. Is she I think, I think she’s got the angles. ‘cause she’s online and she cares to have the angles. You, you barely know how to use makeup. Simone, shut up. No,

Simone Collins: your mom would be so offended. She invested so much in

Malcolm Collins: trying to gimme me to learn how to use makeup. No, my mom would say, you use makeup.

Like I found you in the, like a country barrel or something, you know, like

Simone Collins: she kept taking me to like all the makeup counters and [00:42:00] having me like go through like makeup, put on sessions and be like, now Simone. Practice. Practice. And she’d like.

Malcolm Collins: It’s like you’re entering high court. She’s trying to, like one of my Korean romance dramas.

Yeah. She’s trying to get you ready to go to the gala. It made

Simone Collins: me feel so nice because my mom really had a, a difficult relationship with female.

Malcolm Collins: It was gender affirming care. Simone,

Simone Collins: but not genuinely though, like all female like, like plastic surgery and makeup is gender affirming care and I think that we, we need to have more.

Open conversations in society about the fact that, that, that things like Botox or facelifts or especially like female youth inducing procedures. That women undergo are just forms of gender affirming care, especially when they’re dimorphic, like I could imagine like maybe a neck lift with, with which both men and women get to look a little [00:43:00] bit more healthy and youthful.

That’s not necessarily gender affirming care, but I would say the vast majority of the cosmetic procedures that women are getting is gender affirming care. And like, don’t act like you’re holier than thou, like this whole Mar-a-Lago face thing like. Sorry ladies, like you are no better than all of these trans people that you were decrying, like you were doing exactly the same thing.

Oh no, I

Malcolm Collins: agree. I think the, the Mar-a-Lago face. It’s weird, it’s gross. I hate it. Mm-hmm. These people look like Planet of the Body. Snatchers got them. Yeah. And

Simone Collins: as that Snow White actress put it weird, weird

Malcolm Collins: weird. What did she say that about?

Simone Collins: The fact that the Prince was a stalker of, of Snow White.

Because God forbid she’d be protected.

Malcolm Collins: Ugh. Gosh. She could’ve, she could’ve accepted the stalker vibes like the ballerina farms lady,

Simone Collins: and they’re living very happily with eight [00:44:00] children. I love their Instagram so much. We have to catch up. We gotta catch up. They’re too ahead of us. They started early and they were Mormon.

I feel like we’re actually doing pretty good being. What you could argue is, is overeducated. Tech elite. You know, we’re not even like, I don’t, I, I don’t wanna call ourselves elite ‘cause we don really don’t. Only other people have called us Elite. But I mean, I just,

Malcolm Collins: I’m elite. I’m elite. Hold on. I’m elite.

I’m not, I’m sorry. I’m,

Simone Collins: I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. Yes, we are overeducated. I

Malcolm Collins: grew up believing I was elite that like. I always have believed I was better than other people. I just need the world to show

Simone Collins: me. Well, no, you, you are better than other people. This is true. I mean, I know it is a fact because I was never ever, ever, ever going to marry anyone, let alone spend extended time with anyone.

And the fact that I can tolerate anyone just kind of shows that you’re, you’re not only elite, you are. Like a dego, at least demigod status. ‘cause there’s [00:45:00] just no way that I could even, that’s what makes your wife to think of you

Malcolm Collins: people by the way.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I, no, I genuinely question whether you’re human sometimes in, in the best possible way.

You are just so above and beyond romantically looks wise. Oh my god. Malcolm is going to soon, well, not soon. He’s starting to get, not gray hairs, but literally white hairs. He’s gonna have the most beautiful

Malcolm Collins: white head of hair. I, there’s a thing in my family, so we’ll see if I keep it. But my hairs my are coming in white.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, no, they’re coming in. Just go. You’re gonna be a silver fox. We’re we’re old guys. I am turning, what? I’m turning 38

Malcolm Collins: tomorrow. 37 I think.

Simone Collins: No, 38. I am 37. I’m turning 38 tomorrow. 30. Wait,

Malcolm Collins: am I

Simone Collins: 39? Yeah, you’re 39. You’re turning 40 next year.

Malcolm Collins: That can’t be true. I’m pretty sure. I’m 38. Simone.

Simone Collins: No, you turned 39. Because [00:46:00] what is next year? 2026. Oh, wow. I was born in 1986. You’re turning 40 next year. We old.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no. I know. I’d be having an existential crisis if I didn’t have five kids. I’ll tell you that.

Simone Collins: Let’s see. Will you have six kids by the time? No. When you turn 40, God willing. I will be pregnant, but not, not so you, you’ll have your six kid on the way, hopefully, but.

Yeah. Anyway. How do we get to mortality? Let’s end this tonight. Can’t take it tonight.

Malcolm Collins: Orange. Orange beef. Trying it for the first time. Very excited. Don’t go overboard with the pepper if it’s included in the recipe so you don’t end up.

Simone Collins: By pepper, you mean? Ground black pepper? Do you mean the red ground?

Malcolm Collins: Black pepper? Seems to be Thai chili peppers. Post coughing peppers.

Simone Collins: Do you want Thai, ch Sorry? Do you want Thai chili peppers?

Malcolm Collins: Yes, I do want Thai chili peppers. Okay. And I do want, anything else that, do you want [00:47:00] it with rice? I’m

Simone Collins: making sourdough again tonight ‘cause we’re not heating that part of the house and I’ve discovered that using the oven makes it not so cold.

Malcolm Collins: So, I would love it with rice. Okay. I’m sorry to ask. And the peppers that we got and chives

Simone Collins: Yep. Okay. Do you also want for heat Thai red chili peppers sprinkled in there or not? Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yes, the Thai red chili peppers and then the green ch tata peppers or whatever they’re called.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Sh babe.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I love you so much. I love you and I, I hope that Abigail Thorne gets what she wants from life. Which is, which is reparations.

Malcolm Collins: Reparations. I

Simone Collins: mean, I don’t, I don’t know what to say. I am. I mean, sadly, the, the really, here’s the really depressing thing is by the time Abigail Thorn will probably need elder care from the government, the UK government’s not gonna be able to provide it. And that’s, [00:48:00] that’s disturbing. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: She’ll get a, a letter made like they have in Canada.

Simone Collins: Have you considered, oh my God, I, I, I want the best for her. I want, I just want everyone to be happy. Some

Malcolm Collins: people choose a life path that precludes genuine happiness. No, I

Simone Collins: actually think, I actually think that Abigail Thorn has fun. You don’t, I think

Malcolm Collins: life path in which you don’t dress up

Simone Collins: in a mermaid costume like that and not have Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: no.

You do it if you’re trying to convince the world that you are happy with the role you have chosen of. Lifelong theater kid. But if you live your life to live a role, you almost definitionally will never be satisfied because especially when most people don’t see you as genuinely embodying that role.

Yeah. Her entire life is an act, you know, and I think that, that she said, I don’t know,

Simone Collins: I say I feel like you know, people who live dramatically. I mean, there’s, there are high highs and low lows, but it’s just woo. It’s entertaining. Maybe that’s what you go for. [00:49:00] Like, besides, do we even value happiness?

But I still somehow just want everyone to be happy. I don’t know, whatever

Malcolm Collins: I, I’m not talking about happiness here. I’m talking about like genuine satisfaction, the thing that, you know, what people actually strive for, right? This really only comes from achieving your goals anyway. Love you Simone. If those goals are like well thought through and you sacrifice for them

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Anyway. It was interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Interesting. Thank you Abby

Simone Collins: Thorn.

Malcolm Collins: Thank philosophy too. Thank you for thanking that for the entire base camp audience. Mm-hmm. We really appreciate it.

Simone Collins: It was a pleasure as always.

Malcolm Collins: Bye guys.

Simone Collins: You did. Oh, you did? Look at you. Look at you. Okay. Just putting down this bottle. Whatcha doing? Just playing a game. Playing a game on my legs. Paddy Whack. Isn’t that what Knickknack Paddy whack is where you like is it No, it’s like a game where you

Malcolm Collins: like [00:50:00] hit in a pattern or something.

Simone Collins: I thought it was where.

You play the fork and spoon instrument. You know where you like gosh, I don’t know. Whatever. Doesn’t matter.

Malcolm Collins: Nobody. Nobody knows what knickknack fatty is, Simone. But they do know that you give a dog a bone.

Simone Collins: Yeah, this is true. And who

Malcolm Collins: knows what our kids know about, they know about among us.

Simone Collins: They if only they didn’t.

Oh my gosh. And the six seven, I don’t like what, what’s so funny is that a meme so dumb is six seven manages to like create its own lore. And our kids are like, I saw the six, seven kid outside. And I’m like, there is no. Like, just forget it, you know, whatever. Is it just mirrored? Do you look blurry?

Malcolm Collins: Let’s have a look.

I look fantastic. I’m, I’m as sexy as I’ve ever been and I’m, you’re fortunate about that and get to be married to this. No, it’s true piece of I, I love it that so many people don’t like the way I [00:51:00] look. Well, then it’s, it’s, it’s good that. Simone got to marry me because she does, right? Mm-hmm. Like that way I’m, it doesn’t matter what I look like to you, it matters what I look like to her.

Right? It’s

Simone Collins: true. You are. I’m to what I would’ve referred to as a child a hunk biscuit, which was our family’s internal term for stud muffin. Because one of the family members couldn’t remember the term stud muffin, but they said hunk biscuit instead. So

Malcolm Collins: they said hunk biscuit. Did you, did you see any hunk biscuits growing up?

Did they say? Hey Simone, have you seen that hunk biscuit at school or whatever?

Simone Collins: Well, my friends started picking up hunk biscuit. So then, yeah, we,

Malcolm Collins: we refer to people h biscuit biscuit, the base camp community. They wanna be hunk biscuits.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You, you wanna become a hunk biscuit. You are my hunk biscuit.

I would rather have a hunk biscuit than a stud muffin. Like if they were foods, like if they were, if I was at a bakery and I was choosing from menu, I would definitely want a hunk biscuit. Who wants muffins? I know what really though. Well, you liked my pumpkin muffins. You [00:52:00] did. Oh, cool. Yeah, so there you go.

But no, generally muffins. It’s like either be a cupcake or don’t stop with this muffin.

Malcolm Collins: Well, you, yeah, you, you cook muffins for the family, which is great. You do corn muffins too, which are really good.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I still haven’t managed to recreate the cornbread I had as a child, which was just so good. So I’m mad about that.

We’ll get there eventually. How is

Malcolm Collins: the cornbread you make today different or wrong?

Simone Collins: I don’t know because I’m using stone ground cornmeal. I’m using the, the flour, the sugar, the, like it was a really simple recipe. I need, I should make it in a square glass Corning wear pan, because that’s how my parents did it.

And then we’d cut it into squares, you know, so it was like normal cornbread, not biscuits. Maybe that’s what I should try. Okay, I’ll try. Ask your dad. Oh, yeah. He’ll have to have the recipe. There was this brown plastic recipe card box that my mom had. Oh God. Maybe. I think he’s [00:53:00] still, he’s still in Alameda.

I gotta ask him for that. Anyway, we’ll get into this. ‘Cause I’m, I’m I gotta do this episode. Poor, poor Abigail Thorn. Not safe from us. Okay. You ready? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker: My Orange Chicken Creatures cooking. Yeah, like.

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