Sales as relationship and listening

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Colleen Joyce discuss:

• Failing fast while managing risk
• Building a competitive legal practice intentionally
• Treating sales as listening and diagnosis
• Leading and adapting for the future of law

Key Takeaways:

• Test ideas quickly and learn from small, recoverable failures. Avoid high-stakes decisions that can jeopardize the entire business. Fast iteration builds resilience in a rapid attention and news cycle.
• Strong branding is essential in a crowded legal market. Lawyers must understand marketing and business, not just legal skills. Personal brand and visibility increasingly determine growth and opportunity.
• Effective sales begins with asking questions and listening deeply. Clients commit when they feel understood, not when they are pitched.  A clear diagnosis must come before proposing solutions or pricing.
• Know your strengths and hire to cover gaps. Transparency and honesty strengthen leadership and team trust. Investing in technology, efficiency, and learning is required to stay competitive.

"I know lawyers don't like to hear this, but they are salespeople, just like every other job." —  Colleen Joyce

Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.

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About Colleen Joyce: Colleen Joyce is the Chief Executive Officer of Lawyer.com, the leading U.S. legal directory and lawyer-matching service that connects consumers with qualified local attorneys. She has spent over a decade building and scaling Lawyer.com’s offerings, from foundational directory services to expanded products, marketing education (including CLE courses), and industry events focused on lawyer growth and digital strategy. Joyce previously served as President and Senior Vice President of Lawyer Services, developing deep expertise in management, online legal marketing, and business development before becoming CEO in 2024. Under her leadership, Lawyer.com has experienced significant growth and expanded its role in helping lawyers with client acquisition, thought leadership, and industry engagement. Joyce also brings a background in marketing and publicity from earlier roles, including directing marketing and public relations at PopStar.com, and holds a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Illinois, graduating magna cum laude in liberal arts and sciences.

Connect with Colleen Joyce:

Website: http://www.lawyer.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenjoyce/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.