What counts as persecution versus discrimination?

America loves winners—now more than ever. But how do you get to a win in 2025 America? We watch someone trying to score a win in a game whose rules are being made up as she plays. 

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• Prologue: Ira talks to producer Diane Wu about an informal survey she’s done with the staff of This American Life about a phrase Ira says a lot that includes the word “winners.” (8 minutes)
• Act One: Two people see one of President Trump’s first executive orders and get excited, and then get to work. (30 minutes)

Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.org

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