Freud vs Jung: Dialogical Models of the Psyche

Something is coming: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/p/whatnext

What if mastery isn’t about perfection—but about transformation?

In this episode of The Lectern, John Vervaeke is joined by Ethan Hsieh to explore how the cultivation of virtuosity—typically associated with the arts—can become central to philosophical and existential growth. Ethan introduces his Tiamat process, a three-tier developmental framework integrating performance training, cognitive science, and dialogical practice.

Together, they explore what it means to live a deliberately developmental life, moving beyond therapy into embodied transformation. Ethan draws from his background in acting, pedagogy, and philosophy to offer a new model of self-cultivation rooted in agency, feedback, metacognition, and trust.

Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner whose work bridges performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. As the creator of the Tiamat process, he integrates insights from embodied practice, developmental psychology, and dialogical philosophy to help individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life. Ethan is also a co-founder of Five to Midnight, a community of practice that fosters relational, developmental growth through shared inquiry.

Learn more: http://5tomidnight.org

-

00:00 – Opening and intentions

03:00 – Ethan’s background in theater and philosophy

07:30 – What is Tiamat? Three-tiered developmental model

11:00 – Mapping metacognition through embodied practice

14:00 – Why “meta-maps” matter

17:00 – Habituation and interrupting automaticity

20:00 – Tiamat vs traditional therapy

24:00 – Participatory transformation and co-regulation

29:00 – Why agency must be distributed

1:00:00 – Where transformation lives: tier two dynamics

1:05:00 – Closing reflections

-

Tiamat Process – Ethan’s developmental model blending performance, cognition, and feedback

Meta Maps – Tools for mapping metacognition and lived experience

Postures of Presence – Ethan’s term for enacted, relational awareness

Five to Midnight – Ethan’s practice-based community: http://5tomidnight.org

Deliberately Developmental Civilization – Concept by Ken Wilber & Dustin Dene

Unified Theory of Knowledge (UTOK) – Metatheoretical cognitive framework: https://unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org

-

Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned: Tiamat process Virtuosity and virtue Meta maps and metacognition Postures of presence Embodied transformation Relational ontology Distributed agency Participatory knowing Deliberately developmental civilization Complexification and growth Therapy vs. transformative practice Feedback and co-regulation Performance and philosophy Five to Midnight Unified Theory of Knowledge (UTOK) Ken Wilber Dustin Dene John Vervaeke

-

Follow John Vervaeke: https://johnvervaeke.com https://twitter.com/DrJohnVervaeke https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke