Tom, you wrote your book in 2018. And sadly, it has been more relevant with each passing year since then. It's going to be an important read. Thanks for being with us this morning. Tom Danenbaum is a professor of international law at Tufts University. He's the co-director of the Center for International Law and Governance. He is the author of the book The Crime of Aggression Humanity and the Soldier. Well, a group of prominent Jewish writers, artists, and activists has come together to dispel what they're calling a dangerous conflation of the notion that criticism of the Israeli government, particularly in support of Palestinian freedom, is inherently anti-Semitic. The legendary Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Tony Kushner joins me after this. For more than 40 years, leaders in Iran have been vocal about their disdain for the state of Israel. And now that Israel is in an all-out war with Iran's ally, Hamas, the country is now reportedly weighing whether to get involved in the fight. Iran's foreign minister told the New York Times that the country is, quote, not pursuing the spreading of this war, end quote. But if it does end up responding to Israel's bombardment of Gaza, Iran and its proxy militias across the region that it arms and trains could severely escalate this conflict. Joining me now from Iran is NBC News Foreign correspondent and Tehran bureau chief, my friend Ali Arruzi. Good evening to you. This fight between Israel and Hamas

continues. What sway does Iran have over Hamas in the

south of Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon? And as such, how do you see this playing out?

Well, it's good to be with you, my friend. Iran has immense influence over Hezbollah and Hamas. They are what they are because of the Islamic Republic. They've been financed, trained and equipped by the Islamic Republic. So let's start with Hezbollah. It's an Iranian creation and the jewel in the crown of Iran's proxy networks. It had adopted a model set out by Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic, the man who ushered in the modern era of militant Islam. Hezbollah pleasures his entire allegiance to Iran, stating that they take their orders and directions. The organization was created with the support of some 1500 IRGC instructors. By the 1990s with the support of Iran, Hezbollah had entered the political arena in Lebanon. And by the early 2000s, the Hezbollah had established such a huge military that it was bigger than the Lebanese army being described as a state within a state. Today, they're considered the most powerful non-state actor in the world. And that's all thanks to Iran. Now, Hamas, unlike Hezbollah, is not ideologically in line with Iran. There is Sunni organization, whereas Hezbollah, Shia, they also had odds in Iran's most strategic location, Syria, Hamas supported Bashar al-Assad. Iran did everything it could to prop up Assad. But they chose to ignore those differences and focus on their shared goal, the destruction of Israel and the expulsion of U.S. troops. And Hamas has never shied away from showing its gratitude towards Iran. Their political chief, Esmail Hania, praised Iran for enabling them to carry out intense bombardments on Israel, and said that Iran never held back with money, weapons, and technical support. So that pretty sums up how close these two organizations are to Iran and how much they rely on Iran. But an important note to make, Ali, aside from that, is that whatever the outcome of this war, Tehran sees this as a victory already. Their proxy, Hamas, has dealt a severe blow to Israel on October 7th. Anti-Semitism is on the rise. Western cities are seeing tens of thousands of protesters pouring out onto the streets in support of Palestine. Something common, a Iran Supreme Leader, has pointed out on several occasions with immense satisfaction. Iran has reestablished itself as a Muslim authority in the vanguard of Palestine, a debt-on to between Israel and Saudi is pretty much on the back burner. This has been a huge success for Iran, and they haven't had to pay a price for it. Completely unscathed from this attack on October 7th. Your perspective

on this is important because one has to understand the role that Iran is playing in the broader world to understand this particular fight. Ali, stay safe. Good to see you as always, my friend. Ali Aruzi in Tehran. All right, next. The dangers of equating any critique of the Israeli government with anti-Semitism, one group of prominent Jewish writers is pushing back on that narrative. I'll speak to the legendary playwright Tony Kushner after this. A group of influential Jewish writers, artists, and activists has come together in an effort to dispel what they're calling a dangerous conflation. The notion that criticism of the Israeli government, particularly in support of Palestinian freedom, is inherently anti-Semitic. In an open letter, they write in part, quote, we are Jewish writers, artists, and activists who wish to disavow the widespread narrative that any criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic. Israel and its defenders have long used this rhetorical tactic to shield Israel from accountability, dignify the US's multi-billion dollar investment in Israel's military, obscure the deadly reality of occupation, and deny Palestinian sovereignty. Now, this insidious gagging of free speech is being used to justify Israel's ongoing military bombardment of Gaza and to silence criticism from the international community, end quote. The letter goes on to say, quote, we find this rhetorical tactic antithetical to Jewish values, which teach us to repair the world, question authority, and champion the oppressed over the oppressor. It is precisely because of the painful history of anti-Semitism and lessons of Jewish texts that we advocate for the dignity and sovereignty of the Palestinian people. Refuse the false choice between Jewish safety and Palestinian freedom, between Jewish identity and the ending of oppression of Palestinians. In fact, we believe the rights of Jews and Palestinians go hand in hand. The safety of each people depends on the others end quote. Dozens of Jewish writers, artists, and activists signed this letter, many of whom you probably recognize, including Tony Kushner, the Pulitzer Prize winning playwright, screenwriter, and activist. He's best known for his two-part epic Angels in America and many, many more that he's done. I'd be here all day if I listed everything he's done. He's known for his long-standing support of Palestinian freedom and for humanity. Tony Kushner, standing by, he joins me after a quick break. Before the break, I told you about a letter signed by dozens of Jewish writers, artists, and activists wishing to disavow the notion that any criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic, while also rejecting anti-Semitism in all its forms. The letter, which is worth a read, says in part, anti-Semitism is an excruciatingly painful part of our community's past and present. Our families have escaped wars, harassment, pogroms, and concentration camps. We've studied the long histories of persecution and violence against Jews, and we take seriously the ongoing anti-Semitism that jeopardizes the safety of Jews around the world end quote. One of the people who signed that letter is Tony Kushner, Tony Award-winning winner and Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright, screenwriter, and activist. You may know him best from his seminal work Angels in America. He most recently co-wrote the script for the Oscar-nominated film The Fablemans with Steven Spielberg. Kushner has long been vocal about his criticism of the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians and has faced backlash for these opinions. Tony, thank you for being on the show this morning.

Thanks for having me.

You've said in the past that you've never supported a boycott of Israel. You've always unequivocally supported the Jewish state's right to exist, but your views on Israel's treatment of Palestinians were twisted around in 2011. The City University of New York almost withheld an honorary degree because a trusty accused you of being anti-Israel. This argument that was used against you back then is still being weaponized against criticisms of Israel. It's kind of interesting because we have those criticisms of the American government, the Turkish government, the Saudi government, the Chinese government, the Hungarian government. We've got to go through a whole lot of this, the Indian government. But this one is

different. Well, I mean, it's a complicated issue because anything involving Jewish people also brings with it the entire history of the oppression and persecution and attempted genocide of Jewish people. So there is a way in which we occupy a particular place in history. And there's a need to understand the history of the endangerment of the Jewish people and the fact that most of us live with an awareness that we're in some ways an imperiled minority, there's now a Jewish state. And the history goes along with an understanding of the policies of the state of Israel. But it's of course not an excuse for all sorts of behavior. And the ongoing oppression of the Palestinian people by the Israeli government is a factor that endangers not only Palestinians who should be as of as much concern to Jews around the world and to all Israeli citizens as anyone else is. It endangers the existence of the state of Israel. These policies have not made Israel a safer place. And now we're in a situation for the fifth time in 15 years in which the IDF is attacking Gaza. If you've ever been to Gaza, you immediately know that firing rockets and it's incredibly densely crowded area, which people are not liberty to leave, is a nightmare-ish idea. And in the last two weeks, the death toll is now approaching 10,000 people, most of them civilians and and deprivations and hardships being visited on the rest of the 2.5 million people that live in Gaza that are unimaginable. And I am horrified, as I think any decent human being, is at what happened on October 7th in Israel and Hamas's monstrous attacks on Israeli civilians. But my grief over the death of the 1300 Israeli civilians and my awareness of the terrible way in which many of them were killed doesn't in any way mean that I feel less grief or less alarm than I'm feeling every day reading about the mounting list of fatalities in Gaza. And right now there's only really one thing I think that any person of conscience anywhere in the world needs to be thinking of. There must be a ceasefire. There has to be at least a pause if not a ceasefire, but there really needs to be a ceasefire. The invasion of Gaza and the aerial attacks on Gaza are unconscionable and they have to stop. It doesn't endanger Israel to do that. No one believes that the invasion or that the aerial bombardments is going to get rid of Hamas. And as this progresses, as this mass slaughter progresses, the rest of the region is beginning to rise up. And I'm very much afraid for the safety of Israel if this continues. I think it has to stop. And it's a complicating factor that Israel is still being led by a man who, again, I think no person of conscience or anybody's read the news for the last 15 years, should regard as trustworthy or interested in anybody but his own self interest. So this is an important

letter. It's not long. Everybody should read it. But it's tough for those of you who signed it because it's not just that you've put your view out there. And in your case, Tony, it's not surprising because you're consistent in how you've thought about it, but it is going to subject you to criticism. It's not surprising that people conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. The anti-defamation league classifies anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism. And yesterday, Avi Mayer, the editor of the Jerusalem Post published an opinion piece which was titled, No Longer Part of Us, in which he says anti-Zionist Jews, quote, may still technically be Jewish due to their parentage or conversion while they may lead superficially Jewish lives, end quote. They should not essentially be considered part of the Jewish community. I was shocked. I mean, I know Avi's views on things, but he's basically saying people like you and I really Jews. Yeah,

I mean, I personally have never called myself an anti-Zionist Jew. I'm not entirely sure what that expression means. I agree with the statement in the letter that I signed that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. I call myself a diaspora in Jew. I'm not an Israeli citizen. Zionism is the movement that the 19th century movement that gave birth to the state of Israel. And anti-Zionism is a complicated term. And I don't describe myself that way. The idea that this guy in the Jerusalem Post has announced that I'm no longer part of the Jewish community doesn't surprise me and it doesn't move me. And you know, he's welcome to his opinion. If you want to read Israeli coverage of what's going on, read harats. Don't read the Jerusalem Post. And it's very interesting. People should be reading harats now because there's a diversity of opinion and a great deal of really surprising, in terms of an Israeli newspaper, a really surprising depth of criticism of the policies of the Netanyahu government and specifically of the equation of criticism of the policies of the Israeli government and anti-Semitism. It's cynical nonsense and it has only one purpose, which is to distract people's attention from where it should be focused right now, which is if we stop the bombing, if we stop the invasions, people will stop dying in the hundreds and in the thousands. And what could matter more than that? Nothing to any Jew on earth should matter more than that, because there's a moral imperative and a religious imperative to save life in Judaism. And it doesn't say save Jewish life. It says, you know, life, Palestinians. So there's an interesting quote in an article in harats recently. Scholar says, personally, I believe that there's no difference between a baby in Gaza and a baby in Israel, but don't quote me on that. I mean, you know, we need to be quoted on that. This is a this is a unfolding catastrophe. And people need to bring pressure on the Biden administration to demand of Netanyahu that the bomb barter stops the whole world, I think at this point is lining up behind a demand for ceasefire.

Tony, I certainly thought my first conversation with you would be as part of my band book club. And you and I should talk about literature and writing and the pressures that it's under in America. Let's do that another time. Thank you for being with us this morning. I appreciate it. Tony Kushner is a Tony award winner and a Pulitzer Prize winning playwright, screenwriter and activist. That does it for me. Thanks

for watching. Protect our children from being indoctrinated. Stop

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