How Close Does a Judge Have to Be to You Before You Use Their First Name?

How close does a judge have to be to you before you use their first name in casual conversation with them? It depends whether. I am never going to call you by your first name in front of lawyers practicing in front of you law students, or even if we have mutual friends but those friends didn't know you before you were a judge so that now they're going to be in a weird spot of what to call you. But I'll give an example of Judge Rudofsky, who's out in Arkansas who was like my big brother in law school and incredibly close friend of mine. If I'm with him his wife, my husband. And you know, Katie by burr.