Desires in Dystopia

https://discord.com/invite/EGFRjwwS92

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone delve into a provocative discussion about how certain portions of the left appear to be indulging in Handmaid's Tale scenarios for sexual excitement. The conversation also covers statistical data from Ayla on female and male fetishes, revealing surprising insights into what really turns women on. They discuss the prevalence of violent erotica among women, the implications of women's arousal patterns on society, and how these fantasies manifest in public discourse and media. Explore the complexities of sexual fantasies and societal taboos in this eye-opening conversation.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Simone. I'm excited to be talking to you today. Today we are going to be talking about a handmaid's tale. There have been some jokes on the right that we have participated in that it appears that a portion of the left Is genuinely aroused by Handmaid's Tale scenarios and is attempting to LARP a fantasy in which they are living these scenarios for predominantly sexualized reason.

And I think that. When we've said this and other people have said this I've laughed I've been like, oh, that's so silly And then like this voice started to creep into my mind malcolm You should probably look into whether or not this is the case.

Simone Collins: I was never joking I think it's legit and I think we've received

Malcolm Collins: So we are going to, yes, look for receipts.

This is actually something that's happening on the left. Then we are going to [00:01:00] go over a slide deck that Ayla created for Hereticon that goes over some of what women are into. And I think that this, and it's just so important for us to constantly be emphasizing this. Women consume the majority of violent pornography.

Yeah, this is not a, this is not a dude thing. This is not a dude thing. And you'll get people like you know, Louise Perry and she goes, Oh, well. Yeah. Okay. Maybe your girlfriend asked you to choke her, but she was only doing that because other guys had choked her before. And I was like, b***h, women didn't turn Fifty Shades of Grey into a bestselling book to impress guys.

Yeah. Okay. Women were like conspicuously reading Fifty Shades of Grey on a bus so a guy could see it and be like, Hmm. Yeah. I bet she's into some kinky stuff. It shows a complete disconnect from reality among a certain class of people. That's just like, well,

Simone Collins: I think part of it is that [00:02:00] there is a, a non trivial subset of, of women and, and people in general who are really turned off by this.

Like it's not their fetish and they can't imagine as

Malcolm Collins: well. There is an extreme category and extreme. Scream turned on category, but then not turned on category is a smaller category.

Simone Collins: But this is an issue pervasive in sexuality, where like, this subset of people who are extremely turned off by the thing are also very disgusted by it, which is something you discuss a lot in the Tragedy of Sexuality, and when you equate it's very easy to equate disgust with this must be morally bad.

And so they're like, well, I have this

Malcolm Collins: disgusting thing. Sorry, you mixed up your words a bit there. Whenever an audience is extremely aroused by something, another audience will be extremely disgusted by the same thing. Whenever one audience is disgusted by something, another audience will be extremely aroused by it.

But some individuals just struggle with comprehending that their own arousal patterns may not be the dominant arousal patterns within their gender. These people remind me of [00:03:00] those, I don't know if you've ever known one of those predatory bi guys who's like, come on, man, or gay guys. They're like, everybody's actually secretly gay.

And I'm like, no, I'm definitely not secretly gay. But they just, they don't believe it. There's part of their brain that's like, this is what turns me

Simone Collins: on.

Malcolm Collins: And this is

Simone Collins: the thing that, so it's a very common, like, logical mistake that people make where if you broadly like someone and respect them and think they're a nice person, person, then you're going to assume that they are disgusted by the things, same things that you're disgusted by, that they, they believe the same things you do.

And so I think it's really easy for people who are really turned off by this stuff to be like, well, no one could be turned on by this and everyone must be turned on by the things I'm turned on by. And that's just how it is. And then this causes a lot of this misunderstanding and conflict.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So here's the post on Reddit this is a, by a left wing person.

The women perpetuating the delusional idea that they will be forcibly impregnated by the most powerful men in society are taking part in a fantasy. Even being pro choice, I'm embarrassed by the amount of [00:04:00] women who genuinely fantasize they'll be breeding stock for the elites

first to give birth rather than be cast aside as housemaids due to age, obesity, or generally unattractive qualities, or illness. In this fantasy, they're all highly coveted by men. Powerful men. They're even more valuable than the men's wives. Of course, this isn't happening, however. It's not PC to disturb these fantasies of being ultimately irresistible, that society changes completely, because everyone else, Is suddenly less valuable than you it reeks of ego masturbation and breeding kink Just like the wildly popular 50 shades, which is written at a literal fourth grade reading level It's always a rich and powerful man

who is powerless against their attraction to you. And it made it to the bestseller list because women couldn't get enough of it. There are three movies now, despite the story mentioning her being fed alcohol and engaging in activities she didn't consent to and was not warned would take place.

This is a LARP [00:05:00] and it's embarrassing and it's completely divorced from reality. And it's so obvious to many of us that it keeps us. From taking you seriously and I think that

Simone Collins: that's, that's really sex negative and shaming. Like, oh gosh, so it's so unreasonable to wish that you were desired. It's so unreasonable to wish that you were valued by society.

Like, I mean, we can make fun of this, like, fetish, but

Malcolm Collins: like, it's a, it's a real thing. But I think that, that whenever you have a narrative, and I would note that I actually don't think the book, and I think that this is why the book wasn't as popular at this recent revival in a TV series and LARP it didn't sexualize the sex scenes that much, whereas the TV series did, sexualize the men in the show. Like the colonel, there's a lot of women talking about how hot they found these guys and we can go over those posts, but Oh my God, really? Oh no. Oh no. Yeah I, and I, and I know that Rubiard was the one who turned me on to this because he was pointing out, look, whenever you see something that is predominantly female, [00:06:00] the fandom, it involves women being disempowered, but obsessed over by, you know, powerful men especially if they are forced to be pleasured by that man in front of other high valued women who have to look on with jealousy.

While this may not be your fantasy, Simone, it is the, one of the dominant female fantasies.

Simone Collins: Well, that's what I'm saying. That's why I don't think it definitely is not my thing. So it's. It's hard for me to understand, but I don't, I see the logic behind it. I see why, evolutionarily speaking, this would likely be a turn on for many women.

And I don't think it should be shamed. But I also think that people who are, I think the problem is that a lot of people who actually hold this fetish, and are like, Cosplaying in Handmaid's Tale stuff and like trying to argue that they're obsessed with Gilead because it's a cautionary tale and they're protesting around it because they want to warn people and they don't want it, like, they don't want it to happen, but like they're [00:07:00] really leaning into it because there's this very subconscious fetish, but

Malcolm Collins: very strong.

Hold on, I love this one. So, LOL Atwood's movie, and this is in our politics, basically summed up as, quote, Oh my god, the patriarchy is so bad, I'm gonna escape and get revenge. Oh my god, I sure hope a powerful rich man doesn't catch me in making their breeding slave. Pant, pant. Okay, so I'll just go over a few like memes before we get to the actual statistics on this. Here is a picture of, this is posted regularly in one of the subreddits. No spoiler, the Handmaid's Tale role play on Discord. Be a wife, a handmaid, a Martha, et cetera, et cetera.

So this is for women who like to role play as handmaids on Discord. And then here it's, oh. My God, I saw a fanfic where June becomes Nick's handmaid, and it was played out like some kind of romantic and kinky thing. And I was all like, oh my God, what are you doing? Or here, somebody's saying, Nick, does anyone else find [00:08:00] Nick insanely hot? Like, everything about him, Nick can get it.

And then here's one, is anybody else oddly and overwhelmingly attracted to Commander Lawrence? And then, Here is the responses in that that are getting lots of upvotes, like 157 upvotes, way more than I should. And then another person says, I'm a sip for him and I hate myself for it. And then here's one this is the, the quote unquote bad guy commander Downvote this like crazy, but Fred is sexy.

Before you downvote and by the way, this person got a lot of upvotes. Before you downvote me, I almost feel after watching half of season one so far, I'm simultaneously attracted to and repulsed by Fred. I'm trying to analyze why I feel this way, and I wonder if it's because they made his character younger and semi attractive.

Anyone else have these thoughts, even in fleeting, is it because I'm Stockholm, getting so deeply connected to this story and wanting to think about what my own coping mechanism would be when I'm in this situation. So she's imagining herself in this [00:09:00] situation and getting connected. Or here's one. I hate Fred, but he was so f*****g hot in this episode, especially after Luke punched him.

Josephine can't hide his attractiveness. I'm in the comments. He's hot AF and people wonder why Serena would bang him last night at the farmhouse. And I want to go over the data because I think that the data will really surprise people. Like if you're into sexuality stuff, you know this data, right? If you are not into sexuality stuff, you are going to be shocked by this data.

So this is a chart that Ayla made. About fetishes and the fetishes that are disproportionately female in nature versus disproportionately male in nature Okay, so let's do the top five male fetishes first. All right clothing role slash role play Other slash exhibitionism, gender play, and incest. [00:10:00] Oh no, I'm just In sales, by the way.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. So like, actually, what's really funny is that I've watched a lot of, I've watched a lot of YouTube videos sort of doing a breakdown of like, this is how Margaret Atwood did like the best hits of fascism. Like, she used this, and from this country. But like, she's also kind of doing the top hits of female fetishes.

Yes. But yeah, we're gonna do the female,

Malcolm Collins: hold on, hold on, we're gonna do female fetishes as I just said, but the point I'm making is not one of the top male fetishes. demeans women, hurts women, anything like that. That is not what men are into. Okay. At least disproportionately when compared with females.

Now let's see the fetishes that are overrepresented in females. The top female fetishes. Number one, the top disproportionate female fetish for CIS females receiving pain. Number two, light bondage. Number three, power dynamics. Number four, medium bondage, number five, sex toys, [00:11:00] number six, sadomasochism. You want to get to the first pleasant one?

Number seven, gentleness. But then number eight is non consent.

Okay,

Simone Collins: not a good one. That

Malcolm Collins: is what women are into. Yeah. Okay, I'm not saying jump this on women. We're going to get to why you don't want to jump this on women in a second. No,

Simone Collins: no, no, no. And again, this comes back to the beginning of it where for everything that's turned on for some people, it's a huge turn off to other people.

Well, and there's

Malcolm Collins: also a huge funny thing, which is the types of stuff like roleplay that's banned in like AIs and the types of images and porn that is banned, like in the UK, you can't have porn where it looks like anyone is being injured in any way, even if it's consensual even if it's a cartoon. This is a porn disproportionately consumed by women and I should note here when I say porn disproportionately consumed by women, we're going to get to something.

If people be like, oh, [00:12:00] well, very few women consume porn. So, you know, it's only the kinky women. And then it's like, oh, it appears you also don't know the statistic. You see, it turns out that while 93 percent of men consume pornography, if you include erotic written material, 80 percent of women consume it once a month.

So it's not that the vast minority of women consume erotic material. It's that you don't know that the vast majority of women consume erotic material because you are looking at studies from the 80s that did include romance novels and erotic fan fiction in the types of things that women use to get themselves off.

But actually, the vast majority of women, and not that big of a difference in men, consume some form of erotic material monthly. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Yep. So, we're gonna go to the next list, okay? Okay. So this list is what percent of the porn erotica you consume violent, okay?

Simone Collins: No. And this is asking women and [00:13:00] men, or just women?

Malcolm Collins: Women and men. Cis men, cis women. It is overwhelmingly a female thing. If you go to all of it almost no men that falls into their categories. If you go to most of it over 10 percent of women under 5 percent of men, if you go to a moderate amount, way more women than men. If you go to a little bit, way more men than women.

And if you go to none of it, way more men than women.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: In fact, you might be surprised at this in terms of the erotica you consume, none of it being violent only around like 26% of women consume no violent erotica.

Simone Collins: Wow. Yeah. So yeah, and I think it, it pushes a lot of different buttons. So even if the, like let's say your average female isn't into herself being hurt, violence is still kind of a sign of male physical fitness and prowess.

You know, like it takes a lot.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but that's not what they're consuming. It's not men fighting each other that they're consuming. [00:14:00]

Simone Collins: Yeah. Just being violent against women.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: Oh boy. Okay. I'm, I'm really trying to look. You are trying. I know you're trying

Malcolm Collins: to look, I'm going to put it this way. Louise Perry's particular sexual interests for complete.

non, like this none of it category, it is so rare that it is as rare as some fairly mainstream fetishes like foot fetishes and something like that.

So only around 27% of women consume no violent pornography at all.

In terms of people who have a fetish for a specific body part. Around 33% of males and 30% of females have one of these fetishes and of those 47%. Have a preference for feet, which what made it the most common of the specific body part fetishes. , so her unique predilection while more common in the general population than foot fetishes. It's actually less common in the general population than a generic body part fetish. At. Even within females at 30% [00:15:00] for body part fetish and 27% for no violent

as a woman who says no violence against women in any of the erotic material I consume, it's basically outing herself as a female equivalent of a foot fetishist.

She just doesn't realize it.

And again, we actually love Lewis Perry. I love her work. I think she's a great person. I like talking to her. She's fantastic. , All of that said, this is a point that she makes pretty frequently. And so it's one that I need to counter here , which is no eats. You're actually weird if you're a woman and not turned on by violence, that is not usual.

That falls in the category of fetish, not of normal female sexuality within our society today.

Now, I'm not saying that that's a good thing. I'm not thinking that this is the way humans should be programmed. I'm not saying that, for example, do I get aroused when I see a attractive people who aren't my wife sometimes yes I do. That is bad. It is bad that my body works that way, [00:16:00] but it happens. All right. and I think that if we pretend like parts of our arousal patterns don't exist, just because it is inconvenient that they exist, you could end up a really messing up kids with that, because then they assume that something that is actually quite normal about them is weird or deviant.

And those things can be used by other communities. To manipulate them. Oh, a great example of this. When I was younger. , one of the core ways I would get girls to sleep with me. Because I'd be like, oh, you know, I have this. This horrible. Deviant fetish, , around, , vampires. If I seen them carrying around like a vampire book, like a Twilight book or something.

Well in my generation with the Twilight, it was an rice stuff. But anyway, the point being is that, These girls would be like, oh, you're into the thing that I was ashamed for being into. And I assumed that this was some incredibly rare. , like fetish or something like that when it was not, it was like the mainstream thing that girls were into, but they hadn't been [00:17:00] convinced by mainstream society that it was deviant. Which gave me an opportunity to open up conversations about sex with them in a way that didn't seem like I was talking to them about me having sex with them.

I was talking to them about, , their sexuality and my own sexuality more broadly. , but in a way that was very predictable for me because I knew the statistics around female sexuality. , back then, I don't even think that these parts of the statistics were publicly known. It was more just that I had done enough polling on online environments that I had intuited that this was the case. And so people can use that.

Like if I send my daughter out there thinking, oh, if I have these types of arousal patterns, I am a deviant then. People can utilize that to say, Hey, you you're a sexual deviant. Like I'm a sexual deviant. Why didn't you come to our sexual deviant club? , where we do sexual deviant stuff. , instead of, oh no, I'm aware that this is a normal arousal pattern and one that I would prefer not to indulgent in the same way that like I'm aware that women, other than my [00:18:00] wife may turn me on and I'm not going to aggressively indulge in that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it is this very, very strong minority of women and men that speak up against extremely pervasive turn ons for people that kind of ruins the discourse and causes so much trouble. So much trouble. Like, what do you mean by that? I mean that again, we're looking at all these people, and I watch them, like the YouTubers, the protesters, who are using Gilead and Handmaid's Tale, like, they're discussing it a ton, and it just, it's so clear that they're into it for reasons they're not willing to admit to themselves.

Yeah, and I just, I wish, like, it makes me sad because these are people who are probably pretty sexually unrealized, you know, like, they're just not willing to like, be open to what actually turns them on. And so the closest they can get to sexual gratification is like, moralizing on YouTube about how close we are [00:19:00] to like, having Gilead as being our reality.

Meanwhile, they're like, they're leaning into this concept and this dumerism because they're secretly like realizing that it feels good. It's kind of like people, like young kids, like girls who like ride a certain type of bicycle seat and you're like, Oh wow, like this feels really good. And then they're like, is that what we're talking about?

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like they don't realize that they're masturbating, but they're masturbating. And that the problem though, is that they're leaning in. To a very dumerous and like unhappy culture of like, in order to sexually gratify themselves, they have to also believe the world is ending and it's making them depressed and it's making them not optimistic about the future, like it's preventing them from feeling like they are safe in their society.

And so that that's bad. Like if they could just admit that like these weird things turn me on them, they could like, they could, they could find a way to exercise that in their sex lives or with the the romance novels that they read and instead engage in a [00:20:00] reality that is closer to reality and that is a lot more optimistic.

Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: I want to hear talk about the, just the Gilead scene, because I want to go over this and we'll play a little checklist game. Okay, Simone we're going to go over the, the classic Gilead scene for people who don't know it is the guy's wife is like under her or something or on top of her and then he's having I

Simone Collins: think it's supposed to be, so this is like a, a mating ritual in families that have a handmaid in them.

Where you have an infertile wife, who's of higher status, who's Technically married to the husband, and then you have the handmaid who is actually being sort of the surrogate mother in this case, a fertile woman who is essentially a slave in Gilead society who is actually the one engaged in reproductive sex.

So what happens is the handmaid lays her head in the lap of the wife who's sitting on the bed. The husband has sex with a handmaid. I think while making eye contact with the wife or something and the handmaid's just kind of staring off into the distance. It's based on like a biblical story, like this whole, like Gilead's supposed to be based on some [00:21:00] weird interpretation of the Bible that they never talk about Jesus.

And so that's what it's supposed to be. It's just like this, this perversion of a biblical story of surrogacy, essentially. And that's what. Hold on.

Malcolm Collins: I want you to keep this scene in mind. We are going to go over the top eight female fetishes. Disproportionately female fetishes. And then the top eight disproportionately male fetishes.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So first we'll do the male fetishes. And we're going to ask which of those this scene satisfies.

Simone Collins: Oh, and like none because like male sexual, like the number one. And I think this is important because you can't just like rank them and be like, Oh, these are kind of equal. But in like step down proportion, the top, top thing that seems to turn men on, and this is pervasive throughout most porn is very, very enthusiastic female partners or male partners, but like very enthusiastic partners

Malcolm Collins: So the top ones are closing. No, not their roles. Role play. Not really. Not in a traditional context. Others being exhibitionists. Yes, it gets one there. Exhibitionism. Gender play. [00:22:00] No incest. No mental alteration. No. bodily secretions. No.

Being a voyeur. Yes. So two in male. And they're both related to like voyeur exhibitionism stuff. Okay. Okay. Now for disproportionately female fetishes, let's go over the top eight

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Receiving pain, kind of. Yeah. No, for both women, this is not a pleasant procedure. Light bondage. Power dynamics. Medium bondage.

Sex toys, no. Sadomasochism, yes. Well, yeah, and so,

Simone Collins: yeah, power dynamics, check. Light bondage, kind of. Well, I mean, yeah, because, like, technically, they're slaves, and I think the wife is holding the arms of the

Not, not great. Yeah. I mean, clearly this is a, this is a woman friendly

Speaker 5: The whole set

Malcolm Collins: Um Well,

Simone Collins: but I guess we also have to caveat caveat that which turns you on is not that which you morally condone. So just because this is like a top hits of women, female turn ons, does not mean that [00:23:00] women want this to happen.

Or would morally support such such actions, which again, that's the important thing is just because you want to happen

Malcolm Collins: in a second. But I also want to get to an interesting thing here, which is age of onset. So, which fetishes appear in males early on in which fetishes appear disproportionately in females early on.

Okay. Okay. This I find really interesting. So the top ones in males are multiparty. Clothing, vor, voyeur exhibitionism, roles and that's the top five for me. So

Simone Collins: clothing, what, what is clothing? I'm not familiar with clothing as a Clothing

Malcolm Collins: means cross dressing.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Speaker 4: okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Next. Sorry. It bothers me that people don't realize how much of a cis man fetish that is.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The vast majority of They used to.

Simone Collins: Like, I think, like, up until 1995, that was like the pervasive understanding.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So for women it goes brutality, non [00:24:00] consent, objects, humiliation, bondage, power dynamics.

Simone Collins: Again.

Malcolm Collins: Again.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry. Okay. Non consent interest scores. This is really interesting.

Men versus women. I'll just put this on age and you can take what you want from this. No, this is actually really interesting prevalence of men into dominance versus women into submission. All right.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So you see since men Dom, since women's submission, you actually see a pretty good match between these two groups from very into moderately into slightly into neutral, slightly into moderately into, but where it diverges really heavily is very into this.

Simone Collins: Yes, yes, I remember this graph from retic on where it's like, women are like, yes, and men are like, yeah, over

Malcolm Collins: 30 percent of women are very into dominance and submission.

Simone Collins: Yes, and

Malcolm Collins: as we argue in the pragmatist guide to sexuality, if sexuality meters were developed by women instead [00:25:00] of. As males do it's viewed as predominantly an attraction to males or females The question would be are you predominantly attracted to submission or dominance?

Because women are more aroused along that line and that spectrum than they are by the gender spectrum which I think surprises a lot of people but it makes sense if you've slept around a lot like as a guy who slept around a lot like this is just like Very this checks out and is one reason why it was so easy to sleep around a lot as a male dog You because there's just not enough of them, especially willing to act that way in any with any sort of like, public confidence.

And here, I would note if you're looking at this graph, this is a perfect example of an arbitrage opportunity, where there is not enough supply for the demand on the market. There is not enough supply of males who are into dominant play as there is a demand for males that are into dominant play. And so if you can provide that well and signal that, that's what you provide.

Well, [00:26:00] you are going to get within sexual marketplaces. A huge payoff.

One of the big problems here is that men don't understand what women want when they want dominant males. They think that they are going to learn this from somebody like Andrew Tate,

Instead of from experimentation. And reading the type of content that women read to get off. , if there's a popular book, like a 50 shades of gray or a.

Twilight. You can look at those books, look at the fanfictions. I'd actually say that fanfiction they're even more useful than the books themselves. And look at the discourse around what makes one fan fiction. Good versus another fan fiction. And through that, you can see the way women actually relate to arousal around this stuff and capitalize off of that.

, these charts look at the average preference versus non preference. So you can see when something is like. [00:27:00] Disproportionately like really fun for some people or or like middling. Like most people have about the same opinion of this, right? A guy is aware and calculating during sex.

Women have a slight preference for this, but like the amount of women who don't like this by negative one is just a little less than the amount of women who do like this by positive one. Okay, and the amount of people who like it negative three and positive three. Not that different. Both pretty low. Guy ejaculates after 20 to 30 minutes of penetration, leaning towards preference.

Guy asks for feedback after sex. Basically, as a guy, you never have to worry about doing this. Only a very small percent of women are negative or against this, and you can see this on the screen. Guy tries to insert his penis despite being soft. Almost no woman is going to like this. Do not be interested.

Do not attempt to do this as a guy, okay? But now we're going to look at the things that have extremes on both sides. Very few people are [00:28:00] medium in this, or very few women are medium on this, okay? So, degradation, alright? Yes, if you are a woman, you are more likely than not to like degradation. But if you don't like degradation, you are going to hate it!

Okay, choking. Yes, the vast majority of women really like choking. You can see this in the script. The vast majority of women really like choking. But of the women who don't like it, they hate it. Good girl being called a good girl. Vast majority of women love this. The minority hate it. There's not like a middling perspective on this.

Sadism or being the subject of sadism. Yes. Most women like this, the people who don't hate it. And I think that that's like, no, like I'm like, yeah, that checks out was my experience to make sure, you know, if they are actually into this stuff or not,[00:29:00]

what are your thoughts?

Simone Collins: I will also emphasize that this really makes it clear why some people are so vehemently like, Everyone hates this!

This is terrible! Women are being coerced into this! Because it's very hard for the average person to model someone else. Especially when they themselves feel so strongly in this experience. So I also think that it's something that like women, especially if they've had multiple partners and their male partners have had experience with other women and are trying to please them.

Like on average, those male partners are going to be like, well, she's probably like more likely than not. She's going to be into choking, chokes and like the girl's like, Oh my God, dramatic experience. And suddenly then they have to like, you know, shout. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: As somebody who slept with a lot of women, the vast majority of women are into chokes.

Yes, there are some who are really against it and it's important to check that. But the vast majority of women are into this. And it is women requesting it, not men wanting to do it as you can see [00:30:00] from the charts. As you can see from the literature, as you can see from the porn. Let me put it this way.

I, you know, in writing the sexuality book, read a lot of fan fictions, read a lot of romance novels, stuff targeted at women. Male like porn, if you look at like hentai or something like that. Choking is just not common at all. It's an incredibly rare fetish in the types of porn. The

Simone Collins: vast majority of male targeted porn.

I see is women being like ecstatically pleased. They're very happy. They're so happy. And then like the female point that I

Malcolm Collins: see in like a brainwashed way or eager, but eager. Nonetheless, they're

Simone Collins: enjoying it. That's, that's what I see. And then like a female it's, it's either like all about being physically pleasured.

Or it's about, like, a more coercive power distance kind of scenario.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah and I think that there is a, and I think that people who feel this really strongly don't know how foolish they look. [00:31:00] When they go out and say that, like, this is what women want, like, when a woman goes up and is like, well, women don't want this.

They're only doing it to prove men, impress men, like 80 percent of the female audience

Simone Collins: is like,

Malcolm Collins: like, they know they need to stay quiet about it, but like the level to which we're rolling our eyes and being like, you are just very sexually inexperienced. And don't know what you're talking about. And apparently haven't had an honest conversation about sexuality with your friends in the last 50 years.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: It's not a good look, but, but it's hard to know that because we aren't having this conversation. We just Well, yeah. They

Malcolm Collins: don't ask their friends. They don't ask their friends, Hey, do you actually like choking? Because their friends know from the s**t they're saying in public that they're gonna get shamed for saying that.

But I think it's interesting that this sexual fantasy that seems to dominate within progressive female circles has become so dominant within the way that they're like acting out that they're basically doing these like LARP sex parties where they all dress up like Gilead women. And they're going home and rubbing one out to this.

And they think that [00:32:00] no one else at the party is doing that.

Simone Collins: Well, I, just to be clear, like, I don't, I think that the, the vast majority of the female sexual experience does not actually involve masturbation. It involves a scenario, fantasies, imagination. And that is why this, this, this well, project 2025, they're gonna turn the world into Gilead is like, that is.

That is, that is the active of masturbation. It is not actually like necessarily this thing where they go and like jack off to it, but they, they're just, they're literally doing it while they're talking to you about it. And that's what's so gross about it. It's like when your progressive friend is like, Oh, I need to get a, you know, hysterectomy because they're like literally masturbating.

If they're literally getting

Malcolm Collins: turned on,

Simone Collins: they're using this conversation to get off. But the sad thing, what makes it even worse, is they don't even realize it, and that's what makes it so embarrassing. No, it's like a horse

Malcolm Collins: girl who doesn't realize why she's doing this. She's like, and [00:33:00] that's the thing that I think we should be calling them out on more frequently, is like, stop masturbating in public.

Just when they're saying things like this, like, please stop masturbating. Please do this that you can get a room, get a room. We don't like watching you masturbate in public. Obviously Trump isn't going to do this. You know, like every sane person knows. So what is this? This is a sexual role play for you.

And I don't want to be a part of your sexual role play in the online space. If you want a guy to like partner with you on this. I'm sure you can find one, but don't here's a way to put

Simone Collins: it. Here's a way to put it. If you don't support that random dude, like masturbating while making eye contact with you on a subway, don't talk to me about Gillian.

That's it because it's the same thing.

Malcolm Collins: And don't go dressed up like this. It's

Simone Collins: okay for you to do that. Then it's okay for that dude to masturbate while looking at you on a subway. Like that's just, just how it is. You know,

Malcolm Collins: don't talk about how men are going to force you to carry kids and I'll say here.

You know, [00:34:00] 1 of the things that I had, I had written down here where they were talking about. Oh, no, this is this is totally legitimate. They were doing a quote by Margaret singer, you know, famous KKK also kind of play parenthood. Who said quote, who wanted to genetically purify the American ethnic group and remove black people.

And there were 25 percent less black people than there would be if she hadn't lived due to all the abortion, even 83 percent of her clinics are still in their communities these days. But anyway, so she said, cause they talked about this as like their great hero so racist on the left quote, no woman can call herself free Who does not control her own body in quote and they're like, yeah, but so like,

isn't this true? Like, if a woman can't get a late stage abortion and we should be clear here because a lot of progressives don't realize this that abortions up until birth are still legal in parts of the United States. Like things that are very obviously humans that have full [00:35:00] neurodevelopment and

Simone Collins: also not even like these, these unborn children are not given pain management while they're

Malcolm Collins: got it.

If she got a C section, the kid would be able to live very easily, but they're just like, no, if it's still in her, she has the right to kill it. And this is very much like

Speaker 43: To kill my mom. She's my mom. I can do whatever I want with her. It's more important I live the way I want. She isn't an object you can own, she's a human being. . Ow! Heya! Ow, she's making you suffer! Eh, maybe all these changes are good for me. Maybe the world doesn't revolve around me.

Maybe the world doesn't revolve around me.

Speaker 44: Blegh, blegh, blegh, blegh. The, the, the Where does it revolve around me?

Malcolm Collins: you know, like, I, this is, this is no longer an issue where you can pretend like you're the victim. You are now using.

What is very [00:36:00] obviously another human being to masturbate in a way that is really messed up when you do this or potential human being to masturbate when you go off on this stuff publicly. And I think that I do love the masturbation response. I think that that needs to be used more aggressively publicly because I think that it would cause if it catches on, which I can totally see it catching on because a lot of progressives to back off of these fantasies pretty quickly.

When they're like, Oh, well, I'm going to be forcibly bred and forcibly impregnated, and it'll be just like Gilead.

Simone Collins: And you respond with, please don't masturbate in public.

Malcolm Collins: Please stop masturbating in public platforms. This is disgusting. If you want to do this privately, I won't shame you, but don't include us in your sexual fantasies.

And if they're like, no, this is real, this is happening to us. And I'm like, do you, or do you honestly believe that? Are you willing to bet that this is going to start happening to women? Because I'm here willing to bet my pride that women are not going to be forcibly bred in the United [00:37:00] States any time soon.

So if I'm saying this, then what are you saying? It's a fantasy.

So, do you want to go over other fun stats from A List stuff, or do you want to end this?

Simone Collins: Let's look at other statistics here. It can

Malcolm Collins: be pretty fun.

Okay. Okay. Yeah, sure. So this is a question that Ayla asked, which is if a woman in my social circle were open slash not open to casual sex, this would have a what effect on her reputation damage, neutral or boost. So, not open to casual sex versus open to casual sex, open to casual sex is red, not open to casual sex is negative.

So, not open to casual sex. is more likely to boost her reputation, whereas open to casual sex is more likely to hurt her reputation. And keep in mind, this is among the type of people that AILA, Sex Researcher, samples.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but also, like, that's not terribly [00:38:00] surprising. Everyone kind of Gets that here's that right?

Malcolm Collins: Maybe here's here's a fun one.

Simone Collins: This

Malcolm Collins: is body count if people have been to a sex party and people haven't been to a sex party.

Simone Collins: Okay, okay. So,

Malcolm Collins: People who have been to a sex party among A list followers is 25, is the average body count. For people who've been to a sex party, that seems surprisingly low given my body count.

Well,

Simone Collins: remember, sex parties are, there's a lot of logistics, it's complicated, there's not that many people there, you can't bang that many people in one night. A lot of people go to sex parties and don't have sex with anyone. So, that doesn't surprise

Malcolm Collins: me. Yeah, okay. For, for not at her stuff this is like, it looks like about like 17, 16.

Yeah, this is a, this is who have been to a sex party and not A list followers.

Speaker 4: Huh.

Malcolm Collins: This is a possibly if, if that's what we use for our surveys if you have not been to a sex party and you are one of A list followers, [00:39:00] you're at like a seven body count. If you're not, you're at like a six body count.

So very similar.

Speaker 4: That seems like a lot. Does that seem like a lot to you? Six is

Malcolm Collins: average.

Speaker 4: Yeah, but that seems like a lot.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think it's it's it's messed up by people like me. Like I haven't been to a sex party. Yeah,

Simone Collins: but yeah. Yeah. So there must be outliers that really threw off the averages that that's fair.

Malcolm Collins: I would look at the median in terms of body count. My body count is actually I can't remember exactly. So I'm not going to give anything away, but I think it's like, only 4 X less than a less. Which is kind of shocking to me.

Simone Collins: Yeah, whenever you, you've been at an event where Ella has done a lineup of body count, like where the participants in the event are encouraged to line up by body count.

So you can just kind of physically see the distribution. Malcolm is always at the end. I don't know,

Malcolm Collins: for cis

Simone Collins: males,

Malcolm Collins: I'm at the end. No, no, no, you're at the

Simone Collins: end, you're at the end for all people, [00:40:00] but you are often the very, very top for men who only bang women. Most of the men who are at the top of the body count are at least bi, which makes a lot of sense.

Malcolm Collins: That's because they didn't treat it like a job like I did. You know how I am with everything. It

Simone Collins: was kids. I'm like, I'm not the most kid. We're going to factory produce this. This is going to be It's a lot easier to have a lot of sex. When you're, you're allowed to also have sex with men. Then like have a high volume of sex

Malcolm Collins: with only men.

When people are like, Oh, this seems ridiculous. It's like, do you see my attitude? Or I'm like, I'm going to start a podcast and I'm going to do it every day, fully edited for an hour. Is it any surprise

Simone Collins: that his body count is high? Yeah, seriously.

Malcolm Collins: I'm going to have kids. I'm going to have the most kids in the world.

We're going to do a year of the armistice system. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It's zero or a hundred.

Malcolm Collins: Zero or a hundred. It's the only two ways I do things. Yeah.

For people who don't maybe [00:41:00] understand how insane it is that we do one podcast fully edited every single Week day. I would ask you to search your memory and see if a single of their podcast producer or content producer, you know, of does one fully edited. Podcast. Every single

Week.

day without missing a single day. Ever. , we haven't missed a single day since we started doing five days a week. And then remember that I am doing this without a team. And that we have day jobs. And that we also run a nonprofit.

And then we also have four children.

We didn't take days off when Simone was giving birth to our kids, we didn't take days off at Christmas. We didn't take days off at holidays. We didn't take days off when everyone at the family was sick.

And I'd also note here. Do not accidentally compare a fully edited two person podcast with a non edited one person podcast. Not [00:42:00] that, , Those aren't impressive in their own way, but something like asthma gold doing an episode every day or a streamer doing an episode every day. That isn't even remotely comparable to a fully edited podcast.

This is, , which I think shows like how absolutely all in I go whenever I'm trying to do one thing, whether it's the number of kids I'm having or deciding when I was younger. Oh, what makes me a. And this was really the entire reason I did it. It's like in high school. Oh, , what's the status hierarchy here?

How is it determined how good you are at being a guy? Oh, it appears to be how many attractive people you sleep with? , so I'm going to max that out, which was very stupid of me. , I can say that in hindsight, but I can also understand given the dynamics at high schools in America. Even today, why an even intelligent person might come to believe something like that

okay. Now this is a fun one that she did where it looks at the body count of women by their political leaning. Oh yes. [00:43:00] This is great. And you can see it's really, really clear.

The more economically right you are, the higher your body count and the more socially left you are, the higher your body count.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So libertarians

Malcolm Collins: right. Is more predictive of a high body count than being socially left.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So if you want to talk about the second highest body count, almost the highest.

So it's 5. 2 versus 5. 3. The second highest is just one down on the grid sociality. So just slightly left leaning, but very right leaning economically.

Simone Collins: That's so funny.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-9: Sorry, I find this even Wilder. As a woman being socially, very conservative. So max social conservatism, but also max economic conservatism puts you at the exact same average body count. As a woman who is socially very liberal, but economically very liberal. In fact, [00:44:00] as a woman being socially conservative.

And economically very conservative.

puts you at a higher average body count than the most extreme, very liberal, very liberal social and economic women.

Malcolm Collins: And across the side of the economic right is much higher than across the side of the social right. So, libertarian girls, if you want easy women, that's where it's at.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If men want more sexually free women, they should hang out in libertarian groups because that's where they are. Or, like, when you're on a 1st date with a woman and you're like, is she going to hold out, find out her political leanings.

And I would imagine that, like, the most, and I think this shows up in the graph, that the most sort of, brutish women are like, far progressive women,

Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah. Oh, remember we've had that theory where I said that women may poly, and people can check out our other videos, like the Raiders versus Homesteaders hypothesis.

Which is women may switch to preferring more violent types of [00:45:00] sexuality, the more partners they have.

Speaker 3: You

Malcolm Collins: actually see that in this graph here that I'm showing which is to say, if you look at non consent, power dynamic, or medium bondage, as the number of people a woman sleeps with goes up, the more they are into these things.

Which I think is really interesting. And the inflection point for rising in these things seems to happen after a body count Up around 5. 5, I guess I'd say. Which,

Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So once you get over 5. 5, these things go way up. And once you get over 1, they go medium up. And I think this is because their bodies think that they're sex slaves, basically.

Speaker 4: Hmm. Depressing.

Malcolm Collins: Oh! Women's body count by polyamory! So women who are very poly, they have a body count of over 15 women who are very monogamous. They have a body count of under five. But what's interesting is the big jump between somewhat poly and very poly, somewhat poly it's 11. It is [00:46:00] 16 for very poly.

Speaker 4: Hmm. Five just

Simone Collins: seems like a lot for monogamy too, but I guess if people just aren't getting married anymore, we shouldn't be surprised. Because then it's just serial monogamy that never goes anywhere.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, here, you'd find this interesting, the penetrative sex for women graph.

Speaker 3: So

Malcolm Collins: the average number of partners of penetrative sex a woman has had is 6.

25. Or 2. 4, 6. 24. And you see the distribution here was sort of the, the long end of the distribution being between 12 and

Simone Collins: 13. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: So, really not that high to be honest.

Simone Collins: I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine. I just find everyone put you so repulsive, Malco. Like, I, I, why do you

Malcolm Collins: find me attractive?

Do you found me attractive from the beginning? I don't get it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You're

Malcolm Collins: sorry. What [00:47:00] I should say is a lot of people find me attractive. I get that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don't get what's unusual is that I haven't also found other people attractive. I can't. I really can't tell you. I can't tell you.

Malcolm Collins: You're not the only woman who's felt this way, by the way.

Simone Collins: Oh, that is like, Malco sexual. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Other women have been like, for whatever it is, it's like uniquely you.

Simone Collins: So do we need a flag for a sexual orientation? That's your face on it? Because it seems that we do.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It's caused problems before.

Simone Collins: Oh, so sorry. Well, I feel better for

Malcolm Collins: the girls.

Simone Collins: Difficult for you.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: not for me. It's emotionally difficult for me knowing that these women Basically went crazy and I don't know I should look them up see if they ended up getting married or anything

What I am a very diligent person who was looking for a wife who I thought would be [00:48:00] a high earner and very dedicated And obsession was me was not enough to earn that status I told you about the one who was just absolutely obsessed with me, but she interrupted me on a night when I was working on my Stanford business school application.

And I said, this is very important to me. I, I need to achieve this to achieve the future I want to achieve. And she said, I will do literally anything you tell me to please, please, please, you know? And I was like, no, I, I can't. She's like, please. And I was like, this is, this is what would distract a guy.

Speaker 3: This is

Malcolm Collins: exactly what would distract a guy. And so I locked her out and she ended up banging on my door for half the night.

Simone Collins: Very Flintstones. Yeah. Well, you just have that effect on some of us. I don't know what to tell you about. No,

Malcolm Collins: I got in big trouble for that because other people said I was abusive for her, for locking her out of my, my apartment.

And before she didn't live in my apartment, she lived [00:49:00] on a dorm. I was like, go back to your room. But they're like, how could you not give in? I was like, I'm working on a f*****g application. It's important to my future. Don't you understand? You would have never done that, Simone.

Simone Collins: Oh, no. No, no, no. Always be closing.

So, yeah. Well,

Malcolm Collins: I like that Ayla collects this data. I find it super fascinating. He's the

Speaker 3: best.

Malcolm Collins: This changes a lot for me, because while you might have, like, through your knowledge of female romance books, been like, oh, yeah, of course they're publicly masturbating. I thought it was like a joke. And now I'm like, oh, god, they are publicly masturbating.

This is weird and creepy.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. It is, it is, it is definitely a real thing. And now because Trump has been elected, there's this sort of massive mandate and license that people feel like they have that I'm just seeing it all over the place on YouTube now which is really interesting. Like [00:50:00] what?

Oh, just, just people talking about Gilead. Like I've now seen, because every time I see one, I'm like, It may be algo is feeding them to me now because I watched them because I'm like, why are people talking about this? Like why I want to understand why people think this is going to happen. And then every time I watch it and we're like, no, there's like, there's no real reason for them to be talking about this.

And maybe they can argue that there is because in the project 2025, like detailed playbook there were some things where like doctors were supposed to report. Something about women's fertility and they're just, but they're just, no,

Malcolm Collins: this was a total lie. Okay. So we need to talk about what this actually was this was the doctors were supposed to report the number of abortions that happened within their state and they were like, oh, this is tracking like women, whatever, excuse me, even at Tim Walz's state, they tracked the number of miscarriages, but didn't track the number of abortions.

Why do we track babies [00:51:00] that die by accident as different than babies that don't?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, again, like it just, they're really grasping at straws in a way where like, I, I want to know, like, if People have legitimate grievances about the new administration, but I just haven't seen any yet.

And, and that's why I keep watching them. But then every time I watch them, I'm like, Oh God, I'm watching people masturbate again. Like, no click away. This is really annoying because you know, I love watching leftist analysis. Both before and after the election. I want to see what they're saying. It's frustrating, but anyway, what am I going to make you for dinner?

Since I can't make We

Malcolm Collins: have taquita meat. I

Simone Collins: mean, I can make more taquitos for you if that's what you want.

Malcolm Collins: Those are so effing good. It's one of your best dishes.

Simone Collins: Oh, then that's easy. I can just do that again.

Malcolm Collins: In the future, I'd get sharper cheddar though, but other than that, it's amazing.

Simone Collins: It is sharp cheddar, but yeah, I mean, you can get some at Trader Joe's or something.

It's like

Malcolm Collins: extra,

Simone Collins: yeah, like extra, extra, extra watch [00:52:00] out. I put some

Malcolm Collins: MSG in it. And I put some Sorry, I'm trying to think of how they could be made a little bit better. We don't have gaucho sauce anymore. I've got to get more of that. I shouldn't make a note of this. What else would go good with it?

Simone Collins: I'm already late, so I gotta, I gotta go. Bye, love you.

Speaker 6: You need to get on the nice list.

Speaker 7: And a serpentine is one of my chocolate coins, and I have one of my chocolate coins, too. So I have a quarter and a half for Jacob and me. Yes. Um, you know, if you be on, if you be nice and kind to everybody, then you be on the nice list. Um, they give presents and whoever is on a bad list doesn't get presents.

Speaker 6: Yes, I, I, I [00:53:00] only on a good list. I'm not gonna be on a bad list. But, oh no, what if you did something naughty? I remember you did something naughty two weekends ago. Two weekends ago? How do you know? Because I was there when you did something naughty. You went and played at the arcade with the video games.

Speaker 7: Oh. But you've done a lot of nice things, so it probably doesn't matter now, right? Yes, playing video games doesn't matter. Ow. Gosh. Hey, buddy, I'll kiss your hand. I'm sorry about that. That looks like you hurt yourself quite a bit there. Okay. You're a tough boy, right? Yeah. I'm pretty tough. So, I'm going to put on this.

That will look so beautiful. It'll look beautiful? Yeah, I think so. I know. And I have the baseballs on it. From my cutie bag. Okay, yesterday.

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