Speaker 3
Can you tell me a little bit about what growing up was like?
Speaker 5
Chill I had like a like a nice house indoor pool. That's cool. That's a like a weird thing that people don't have a lot Dad died high school is great 3.0. I would say yeah pretty good high school on all Did you say your dad died? Yeah, my dad died. My dad died when I was 10. Yeah. But also 3.0. I was in choir honors wire. Wow. That's
Speaker 3
impressive. Can I just think for a second? Go for it. Go for it. Varsity soccer. How old were you when you were into the 10th grade? So
Speaker 1
you might've picked up on, like, I also think Ludwig was kind of dropping that in as, like, that's not a natural way to mention that a close family member died or whatnot. But the conversation proceeds, right? And Dr. K does the thing, Matt, where he gives the option about, should we dig into this? Or should
Speaker 3
you want to do and what you don't want to do. We're going to ignore Twitch chat. Don't care about what they think. It's not about that. Got to
Speaker 5
go down the road, Dr. K. That's why we have to know. I want to. Do you feel beholden
Speaker 5
In? Yeah. Okay. What does that word mean? So it, do you feel obligated to? Or do you really want to? I think it's a more hype road to go down. And that's what I'd prefer. Okay. Why do you choose the hype road? Well, because when it's hype, it's more fun. It would be regrettable to not pick a hype decision. Yeah. So once again, you gravitate towards fun and lightheartedness. See, it's happening right now. You're doing it again. No, it's just like it's something that's hype. Like, like I could, I could go down the road that I had predetermined. And then I could think a week later, like, damn, maybe Dr. K had some shit to say like he probably had some bars to drop and I didn't like go for the bars. Is it okay to not go for the bars? Sometimes yes, but if you can and it's not that problematic why not? Okay, cool. There we go.
Speaker 1
Issue resolved. And also Matt, just that reference to, you know, you made a joke. So, you know, we talked about like, that you can kind of weaponize therapies, or even if you don't put as weaponized, there's a power differential when it comes to like a therapist talking to someone, right? And one of the things they can do is stuff like
Speaker 5
Do you have any advice on like my YouTube videos? Because I sent him a video I had made. Oh, I see. I saw it in this video.
Speaker 3
And how did that make you feel? When you responded?
Speaker 5
It, I think didn't matter because I had already quit at that point, but I thought it was cool that he replied for sure. What
Speaker 5
that? That he took the time for a young 16 year old boy. Yeah, so we're going to point something out. What did you just do? uh, thanked the anonymous donator. We're in conjunction with you and brought up a story about, uh,
Speaker 3
my addiction. Yeah. So, so, so like you just changed your voice a little bit. Uh huh. Right. Yeah. And yeah, you kind of made a joke out of it. You're like,
Speaker 3
like was nice for a 16 year old boy. Oh my God. You're mostly gonna be live on Twitch.tv. I can stop if
Speaker 5
it makes you comfortable. No, you're so good. You're so good. I did do that, yeah. How do you understand why you did that? How I made the voice. You make it more spicy?
Speaker 3
No, no, no. I mean, but why did you make the voice in that moment? A little flair? Yeah, but why flair at that point? I completely agree it's flair. You're cracking a joke. You're making it a little bit funny. Well,
Speaker 3
Because I guess it was a bit. I was a bit goofy
Speaker 5
that I just pepper laughing. You got me. It was a bit goofy that the whole entire situation, but it's something I look maybe fondly back on. Yep.
Speaker 3
But you know, yeah, yes. So it's kind of interesting. I think it's a bit. I think it's a bit. I think it's a bit goofy. I think it's a bit goofy. I think it's a bit goofy. I think it's a bit goofy. I think it's a bit goofy because I think actually like what you're doing is lightening I think the significance of it. Why did I do that? So I think we can get to that in a second. Let's notice it first. So we start with observations and then we can develop hypotheses down the road. The more data we collect, the more accurate. But I think that sometimes people feel uncomfortable if I had to venture. Sometimes people feel uncomfortable talking about things that are impactful to them.
Speaker 1
Just normal conversations,
Speaker 1
at all like therapeutic interaction, right? Yeah,
Speaker 2
right, right. And look, I think even apart from digging into Dr. K, I think this is really helpful for people to understand the way in which therapy speak can be used as a power play and, as a way to manipulate people in conversations. And as you said, like it all lies on one side, like the powers within Dr. K to say, why did you, why did you say it like that? I mean, you smiled just then when you said it. What did that mean? How did that make you feel? And it puts you on the back foot and you have to explain yourself. The therapist is like a shield around them, right? They are the one that asks questions, and you are the one that answers. And I think because people associate this therapy talk with being helpful, or kind or something that they think that there can be nothing wrong with it. But it can be misused.
Speaker 1
Yeah, and this is because Ludwig put on a funny voice when he was talking about like a story, right? That he told about, you know, something semi embarrassing he did in the past. And then, like that, that whole thing about, well, why did you do that? Like, if somebody asked you to break down a joke, it's kind of embarrassing, right, in general. But in, in this case, you know, literally mentioned, you know, you're roasting me live on a stream, and he's like, no, no, but you know, it's more deeper than that. Right. And also these pauses, the pregnant pauses, where you're like, that's it. Let me just think about that. Like, again, this is things which people don't normally do, but can happen in the session where a therapist says, you know, let me just think about what you've said there. Also, podcasters occasionally do this. It is fair to say like when they want to seem profound. But
Speaker 2
it is well known. It's almost a cliche of a power play, which is to let the silence sit.
Speaker 1
Yeah, let's sit with that. Let's sit with this. And oh, by the way, Matt, just to say I do appreciate this from Ludwig, because like, they go on, they end up talking about his dad. Then I'll play one clip related to that, but literally does actually show awareness of the kind of power play. So listen to this interaction. So
Speaker 3
if you want to go down the road, enough of a man, oh shit, lost my pen.
Speaker 5
way to make a lighthearted joke in the moment. No,
Speaker 3
I mean, I seriously, my fingers are slippery. Which is a whole different discussion. But I'm supposed to ask you about Coomers at some point too. Joke Gs. Okay, sure. Speaking of making things lighthearted. But so tell me what I mean, do you, you know, were you always kind of the Joker?
Speaker 5
for sure class clown can
Speaker 3
you tell me a little bit about that so
Speaker 1
the you know he dropped the pan and makes a joke and Ludwig is like look you you know you're making a lighthearted thing but Dr. K says ah ha ha and then you know make some like kind of off-color remark but then his tone completely shifts you heard at the end what he's like okay but then tell me what did you mean when you said so like, it's okay for him to pause and like say, you know, but why did you make that joke? But when literally does it, it's just like, okay, yes, that's funny. No, let's get back to the serious business here.
Speaker 2
the change in tone and the very focused question, were you always a class clown? And like, like you're saying, this isn't how people talk, right? This, this is a, this is a form of some form of therapeutic communication. And it is like Dr. K is good at it. You could tell it at all points in time. And he boasted about this earlier. He's good at controlling the conversation. He's good at asking the insightful or the correct questions. He's running it and using what he's learned in his clinical training. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And he likes these eureka moments. So you, you picked up their math on the, well, you're always a class clown, right? And Ludwig talks about, you know, like this experience he had where he was the class clown, he did something, and he got a reaction. And like, you know, since then, he's always kind of been performing in front of crowds. And
Speaker 5
then I wash the dishes and took a shower. At the same time. And everybody thought it was the funniest thing ever. And ever since then, I've just been on a high road. I just ride that high. What is that high? They all laughed. They thought it was funny. It was a classic good one. And how did that make you feel? 10 out of 10. It was a banger. Certified good one live in front of all the people in my class and my crush and the cool teacher. Sounds amazing. Did I do the voice again? Yeah, it
Speaker 1
was amazing. It was good. Yeah. But Dr. K, he often draws these connections, right? So Ludwig mentioned the 10th grade whenever he
Speaker 5
had that story, right? So Listen to this. No,
Speaker 5
was 10 not in the 10th grade unless you're just wondering tell
Speaker 3
us. I'm sorry How old were you it when the the the
Speaker 5
joke story is from the third grade? It was on hindsight. I misremembered. It's fifth grade I believe actually How were you in the fifth grade? Eight? No, wait. Ten. Wait, I was ten, Dr. Kay. See,
Speaker 3
you did it again. Oh, fuck. Yeah, I was 10 years old. A detective voice. Do you remember? It's
Speaker 5
what else happened that year? Wait, my dad died that year. Wait, okay. I'm using a voice but I do think I have an erect. Yeah, I guess that does add up. Sure. You're on to something here, I think. I mean, maybe. Mm hmm. So it's okay. Let's just sit for a second. How do you feel? sorry.. Because he died in March. I can't remember if it was before or after the story. But I don't remember. I can't remember.
Speaker 1
So Dr. K's version is that Ludwig became the class clown in response to the sadness of his dad's death. And now he's kind of repressing the actual significance of that event, even though, because when he's talking about it, he's kind of saying, you know, he processed it. It's very sad, but like, he's okay with it.
Speaker 3
Yeah. So this is the really challenging thing, Ludwig, is I think you I think you're doing great. I don't think you're someone who has all these problems or things like that. I don't mean to make a mountain out of a molehill. At the same time, I think that there are still like areas that all human beings can grow. And I think the real challenge here is that what we have to what I think would help you move forward in life, which by
Speaker 1
the way, I think it's just, you know, I don't know if you because I have a long time ago and I'm Dr. K is not so sure that that's the case. But you hear it the other about where he says like, maybe it's the same year, right? Like maybe, maybe it's unclear, right? Like, but he's not sure if that event happened before or after. So if it happened before, it wouldn't fit this whole detective case. But that doesn't come up, right? Dr. K moves on as if the connection is is pretty much likely to be the case and and kind of fixates, you know, in that interpretation as they go on, and they talk about all this stuff as well. But it's not thing where so that explains why Ludwig is you know this kind of personality and he's a streamer