
No Evolutionary Benefit: So Why Do Girls Like BL/Yaoi/Gay Romance?
Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins
What Heated Rivalry Is About
Malcolm summarizes the showās premise, its unexpected HBO breakout, and why women made it a global phenomenon.
Straight women are going absolutely feral over Heated Rivalry ā the steamy gay hockey romance series that nobody saw coming. From TikTok edits to viral thirst posts, this Canadian show (now on HBO) has become a global obsession, even trending in places where itās banned.
In this episode, Simone & Malcolm Collins dive deep into why women canāt get enough of male-on-male romance ā from Yuri on Ice to Boysā Love manga, slash fiction since the 1970s, and the surprising evolutionary & psychological reasons behind it.
We cover:
* The āwomen canāt loveā red-pill theory (Simoneās most based take ever)
* Why go woke go broke has one massive exception
* The difference between real gay relationships and the fantasy versions women crave
* Power dynamics, objectification, escape from gender politics, and much more
Is this just harmless escapism⦠or proof of something deeper about female desire?
Simone outlined this episode, so the informal notes are below, and the transcript follows. :)
Episode Notes: Why do straight women lust after gay men?
The Gist
* Gay Men on Ice are Trending!
* Before 6am this morning alone, I heard about the show Heated Rivalry, which features steamy sex scenes between two hockey rivals, four times: Two from friends who listen to the podcast, two from YouTubers I listen to in the mornings
* One of our Patrons encouraged us to do an episode on the trending topic, writing:
* āWhy do straight women love to lust after gay men?
* There seems to be a current cultural infatuation with these gay hockey players and the video I shared by Brett Cooper delves into the current craze. This has always baffled me because of the obvious incompatibility, but this has long been a cultural stereotype, it doesnāt seem to be a new cultural phenomenon but I donāt know how timeless it is either but itās definitely intercultural.
* Iām also personally invested into this topic given that a lot of girls growing up told me things along the lines of ā I wish you were gayā or ā you have to be gay. ā I even had a group of about 4 female friends I had, make a plan to try to convince their parents I was gay so we could all go together to a vacation house. ( though nothing happened)
* Iām just wondering and would love Malcolmās input on the subject.ā
So letās dive in.
Heated Rivalry
* Itās a Canadian sports romance series that exploded into a massive cultural phenomenon since its premiere on November 28, 2025.
* Itās an adaptation of Rachel Reidās āGame Changersā book series (specifically drawing from the novel Heated Rivalry), created, written, and directed by Jacob Tierney for a Canadian streaming service called Crave
* HBO Max acquired rights for a day-and-date release in the US and other territories, turning it into a global breakout.
The show follows two elite, closeted professional hockey playersāShane Hollander and Ilya Rozanovāwho are fierce on-ice rivals but develop an intense, secret romantic and sexual relationship. It features explicit, steamy scenes.
Itās been called one of the biggest surprises in TV, a āword-of-mouth sensationā (even HBO execs were shocked), and a rare hit centered on gay characters that didnāt get canceled after one season.
Why is it trending?
* The first season wrapped up in December and a second season was approved
* Its popularity is snowballing after the series started with little promotion but exploded via word-of-mouth, especially on social media (TikTok fan edits, thirst posts, etc.), becoming a āsocial phenomenon.ā
* Viewership on HBO Max surged dramaticallyāstarting low but growing over 10x by the finale (from ~30 million to 324 million streaming minutes weekly, per Luminate data).
* Itās Craveās most-watched original ever and HBO Maxās top debut for an acquired non-animated title since 2019.
Key factors driving the hype:
* The show has high ratings: 98% on Rotten Tomatoes, praise for directing, writing, chemistry between leads, and handling of queer themes in a macho sport like hockey.
* The show has a massive online community (āHudConā ship for the stars), viral clips, and fan events (even internation al ones like in the Philippines)
* The show resonated widely, including in places like Russia (even though itās banned there), and sparked discussions on queer representation in sports.
But it should not be surprising that women see man-on-man romance and eat it right up.
* Think of the Sherlock shipping
* Think of how women canāt even watch The Lorax without creating Oncest (once-ler shipping)
Yaoi & Boys Love
I was first introduced to fangirling over male-male relationships in high school when my friends loaned me yaoi manga. Turns out Yaoi has a long history which could arguably go back to:
* (Arguably) Historyās first novel, the Tale of Genji
* Which was written by the Japanese noblewoman Murasaki Shikibu in the early 11th century
* And has an episode involving Genji and a beautiful boy named Kogimi, the younger brother of the lady Utsusemi.
* Involving Genji and a beautiful boy named Kogimi, the younger brother of the lady Utsusemi.
* After Genji fails to win over Utsusemi, the text notes almost in passing that he āconsoles himselfā in bed with Kogimi, and later remarks that Genji finds the boy in some ways more attractive than his distant sister, which many scholars read as an allusion to maleāmale eroticism.
But yaoi as a genre didnāt emerge until girlsā manga got big in the 1970s and as Japanese fanfiction culture (dÅjinshi) rose with it
* Boy-boy romance wasnāt pioneered by fan fiction:
* Mari Moriās 1961 book A Loversā Forest is often cited as the first modern Japanese novel focused on male homosexual passion written by a woman for women. It influenced later BL/yaoi tropes (age gaps, aesthetic beauty, tragedy).
* In the early 1970s, the Year 24 Group (儳ę§ę¼«ē»å®¶ć°ć«ć¼ć, a collective of influential female manga artists born around 1949, the 24th year of the ShÅwa era) pioneered shÅnen-ai (āboy loveā)
* Key figures created romantic, often tragic stories featuring beautiful, androgynous young men (bishÅnen) in male-male relationships. These were original works published in mainstream shÅjo magazines, influenced by European literature and art
* The launch of the magazine June (originally Comic Jun) in 1978 was pivotalāit specialized in shÅnen-ai/tanbi content, helping formalize and spread the genre commercially (though it focused more on aesthetic romance than explicit sex).
* HOWEVER yaoi is about fan fiction
* The rise of Comiket (Comic Market, first held in 1975) and dÅjinshi culture gave female fans a space to create and share parody works outside mainstream publishing constraints.
* The term āyaoiā itself is a portmanteau coming from from āyama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashiā (å±±[å “]ćŖććč½ć”ćŖććęå³ćŖć), which translates to āno climax, no point, no meaningā (or sometimes āno peak, no punchline, no meaningā).
* It was originally used in a self-deprecating, ironic way to describe male-male smutty shipping (often of boysā manga or anime characters)
* By the 1980s, yaoi dÅjinshi exploded in popularity at fan events. In the 1990s, the genre went more mainstream/commercial under the term āboysā loveā (BL / bÅizu rabu), as publishers recruited dÅjinshi creators and launched dedicated magazines.
Not Limited to Japan
* The 1960s-70s brought first major wave of organized slash fiction
* It emerged among mostly female fans writing fan fiction
* Examples of early shipping were Kirk-Spock fanfiction arcs. Private circulation of stories imagining romantic/sexual relationships between male characters. This marks the start of modern, community-driven female interest.
The Gay Ice Skater Bridge?
One of the more popular male-on-male anime romances in the 2010s was Yuri on Ice
* The series premiered on October 6, 2016, and ended on December 22, 2016
* It revolves around the relationships between Japanese figure skater Yuri Katsuki; his idol, Russian figure-skating champion Victor Nikiforov; and up-and-coming Russian skater Yuri Plisetsky; as the two Yuris compete in the Figure Skating Grand Prix
* It did really well
* It won three awards at the Tokyo Anime Award Festival, a Japan Character Award, seven awards in the Crunchyrollās inaugural Anime Awards, and in 2019 was named by the websiteās editorial team as one of the top 25 anime of the 2010s.
So⦠Why Are Women Into Boyās Love?
* Safe exploration of desire and/or escapism: Takes the female audience member (and her insecurities) out of the picture
* Both women and men feel pressure to perform in sex and when their entire sex is absent, that pressure lifts
* Ability to avoid gender politics or gender wars
* Itās porn without the porn discourse because women arenāt involved
* Emotional depth: Some argue that male friendships in media often carry intense bonds that women readers/ writers āromanticizeā or eroticize.
* Reminds me of red pillars asserting women are incapable of real love
* So maybe do women also think that men feel love more powerfully?
* Aesthetic appeal: Women like looking at male bodies, duh
* Similar to men wanting lesbian porn
* Power dynamics: In heterosexual stories, gender roles can feel restrictive; male-male pairings provide more flexibility.
And Why are Women Into Gay Men?
* Safety from sexual pressure and competition
* Experiments show straight women rate mating-related advice from gay men as more trustworthy than advice from straight men or other women, because they do not suspect hidden sexual motives or rivalry.
* Studies also suggest women feel that gay male friends value them beyond their bodies, which can boost self-esteem and body image compared to interactions with straight men.
* Researchers have argued that attractive women in particular may seek out gay male friends because they expect both: (a) safety from sexual exploitation, and (b) high-quality, āunbiasedā advice on dating and self-presentation to men
* Mutual support in a heterosexist, patriarchal context
* Qualitative work on women and gay men suggests women may feel that gay men understand harassment, stigma, and gender policing better than straight men do, creating a sense of āweāre on the same side.ā
* Some theorists argue that the bond is partly about shared resistance to traditional masculinity: both groups may reject or parody āmachoā norms and instead celebrate emotional expressiveness, camp, and nontraditional gender roles.
* Attraction to campy, aesthetically intense performances of gender
* Symbolic identification with marginalized, resilient figuresāplus a parallel critique that all this can slip into stereotype and commodification
Episode Transcript
Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Maybe the red pillars are right. Maybe women love, well, maybe women are incapable of love. And also women know it too, and thatās why they like to watch men love each other, because they love to observe these strange creatures who are capable of love.
Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. That is the most based Simone. Simone thatās going at the front of the video. I That is. That is, I had never considered this before. Right. Right. And I think you might be right.
Simone Collins: go woke, go broke has one massive exception and itās when , the wokeness is for a leering, non woke audience that just wants to thirst over when you are objectifying
Malcolm Collins: the person.
Simone Collins: Yeah. When you we, yes. When, when you are objectifying.
Would you like to know more?
Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm.
Iām excited to be speaking with you today because gay men on ice are trending and before
Malcolm Collins: Gary, Gary, Gary on ice, that anime, we, we watched like two episodes of it or something about gay men on ice.
Simone Collins: Itās, yeah, but theyāre figure skaters. And today weāre talking about hockey [00:01:00] skaters because literally what, before 6:00 AM this morning alone, I heard about the show heated rivalry, which features steamy sex scenes between two hockey rivals.
Four times two were from like YouTubers and then. Two or from friends.
Malcolm Collins: Why was everybody talking about this seems like a normal thing in media these days. Why is, why are people talking about this?
Simone Collins: No, no. This is different. This is different. And okay. Also, one of our, one of our patrons encouraged me to do an episode on this because itās trending that much.
And theyāre like, what is going on? So they wrote, why do straight women love to Lust after Gay Men? Because thatās the thing people are talking about. Theyāre not talking about the show per se. Theyāre talking about the women posting TikTok reactions to it and edits of it. And like, this is women fangirling over it.
So this person wrote, there seems to be current cultural fascination with these gay hockey players. And the video I shared by Brett Cooper delves into the current craze ācause she did this whole thing on it. This has always baffled me because the obvious. [00:02:00] Incompatibility, but this is long-winded cultural stereotype.
It doesnāt seem to be a new cultural phenomenon, but I donāt know how timeless it is either because itās definitely intercultural. Iām also personally interested in this topic, given that a lot of girls growing up told me things like, I wish you were gay, or You have to be gay. I even had a group of four female friends, I had make a plan to try to convince their parents I was gay so we could all go together to a vacation house.
Though nothing happened. My condolences by the way, Iām just wondering and would love Malcolmās input on the subject. So we need your analysis, Malcolm. Okay, so letās, letās dive in. Iām, Iām gonna tell you about heated rivalry ācause thatās kind of, hold, hold on. I need to for,
Malcolm Collins: for context for people. So if youāre a guy.
Okay. There is a major problem in sites like PornHub with DEI just flooding everything. I swear about a third of the women on there are lesbians are bi and that just cannot be true of the general population. And Iām, of course, Iām joking [00:03:00] here. The joke is that, of course men have a, a preference for many men do for watching erotic content with lesbians in it or with multiple women in it, with one guy.
Thatās to why so many guys have this preference. It should be fairly obvious from an evolutionary perspective. There is no context in which you are watching another man. Sleep was a woman. Unless something really bad is happening and you are not being cupped, right? Like this is not something that you should genetically like to see.
All right? This should be one of the most mortifying sites to you, a man, unless weāre able to just totally dissociate or somewhat gay. Actually, I remember when I was in high school my roommate. Weāre talking about porn at one point, and he was like you know, describing what he liked.
And I was like, oh, I, I never watch anything. Was any men in it ever? And he was very surprised by this. And heās like, [00:04:00] really? And I was like, yeah, itās a, itās a massive turnoff to me to see a man, to literally see myself being cut somewhere in this world. Mm-hmm. Because thatās, youāre watching a video of you not having sex with someone.
That is, that is what that is. And he just couldnāt understand it. Anyway, turned out he was super gay. He just, did he know it
Simone Collins: at the time? He just didnāt know it.
Malcolm Collins: He didnāt fully know it at the time. No. But yeah, he was, he was gay. So, what Iām pointing out is that I, I, that, that is why men have that preference, right?
But with men itās di with, with women, itās different. Okay.
Simone Collins: Hmm.
Malcolm Collins: With women, weāre dealing with a scenario where where
Simone Collins: women arenāt really as oriented to male or female, primary and secondary sexual characteristics so much as theyāre oriented around. Power dynamics.
Malcolm Collins: Like, like, like genetically, historically, itās not that bad for them, right?
Like a lot of women were you know, there were certain periods of human history where 17 women bred for only one man that bred, that meant on average people had 17 what on [00:05:00] average, 17 wives, right? Mm-hmm. So women being okay with you know, the husband sleeping with one girl and then sleeping with them they were gonna have more kids than the ones who were like grossed out or itched out by that or whatever.
So it is weirder that women seem to have a pretty strong, now, we pointed out in the Pragmatic Guide to Sexuality, when we did a big study on this, it was the, the first really big study ever done on this in this way. And what we showed is that if you count erotic novels as the same as porn that women consume.
Exactly as much pornography as men do. Mm-hmm. And thereās this assumption that women consume a lot less pornography than men do because these studies were all created by men originally and they did not consider something like 50 Shades of Gray or Twilight pornography market.
Simone Collins: Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Or, or you know, I think that Iād also put in there things like a Handmaidās Tale.
But you please, please donāt force breed me in front of a bunch of high status [00:06:00] women. But anyway I mean, from a genetic perspective, thatās exactly what a woman would want. Right. Like, a, a scenario like that where basically they are cing this high status woman.
Simone Collins: Yeah. They are actually technically speaking with them
Malcolm Collins: and then raising them as high status kids.
Yeah. Right. Like that is. Mortifying that than, sorry. That is, that is exactly what genetically theyāre, youāre coded to want to happen to you. Itās like an a, a, perfect. And weāve done an episode on a go see if you wanna say, but the point Iām making here is. If you know girls, like if you hang out with like, gerd, girl nerd culture which is something that, you know, I have done a lot.
Growing up I was a very nerdy guy. And one thing you will learn about girl nerd, nerd culture is that things like yi are really, really common. These are, and weāre gonna talk
Simone Collins: about that.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, but what Iām saying is like, this isnāt new, right? Like, this has been around since [00:07:00] forever.
Weāre gonna talk
Simone Collins: about the history and, but it, it goes beyond that because there is this trope of the ma the, the gay best friend for women. Thereās not the lesbian guest best friend for men, you know, not enough
Malcolm Collins: lesbians.
Simone Collins: I donāt think there would be best friend if I could have a lesbian best
Malcolm Collins: friend. I probably would.
No, you wouldnāt. Women are pretty
Simone Collins: terrible. You wouldnāt, you wouldnāt. No, no. Donāt lie. But yeah, like, so itās, anyway, a lot of people are talking about it now though, because of heated rivalry. And you, you hadnāt even heard of it before. So I need to bring you up to speed on this, this whirlwind hit of a show, because it is the thing these days.
So, oh, gimme a moment. Are we good?
Gimme a moment. Ms. Fussy is your un fuss. Okay. So Heated Rivalry is a Canadian sports [00:08:00] romance series that completely exploded out unexpectedly into a massive cultural phenomenon since its premier, premier in November of last year. So itās just three months old. Basically, in terms of American audiences, it is an adaptation of Rachel Reedās Game Changers book series, which was drawing from the novel Heated Romance, thatās why itās called Heated Romance.
So this like with 50 Shades of Gray, this is a book to. You know, show jump. And it was originally created for a Canadian streaming service called Crave, which makes sense. ācause I mean, Canadians in hockey, like, okay, checks out fine, but itās like made for some small streaming service in Canada about gay hockey players.
You, you wouldnāt think it was going to become big and the HBO execs who licensed it for basically streaming in in the US and elsewhere, totally didnāt expect this to become a thing. They didnāt really promote it, they just [00:09:00] put it up and weāre like, yeah, fine. This, you know, we, we gotta diversify our portfolio or whatever.
And it just somehow. Went out of control into, I mean, it, it shouldnāt be surprising, weāre gonna go into that, but it became a global breakout. The show follows two elite closeted professional hockey players, Shane Hollander and Ilya ov, who are fierce on the ice rivals, but develop an intense secret, romantic and sexual relationship.
It features explicit steamy scenes. I have not watched any of them. I, I donāt really want to. But it, it has been called one of the biggest surprises on tv. It, even HBO execs who really vouch for it to be brought on are surprised it did so well. And people think that it. Wouldāve gotten canceled in its first season, like they were sure it wasnāt gonna get renewed or anything.
But as of December, it has gotten a second season. Thatās one of the reasons why itās trending right now, is people are excited. Itās getting a second [00:10:00] season filming is gonna begin in the summer of this year. But specifically the reason this went crazy is because of just intense word of mouth fangirling, primarily from women who are making all of these TikTok cuts of it who are talking about on social media, how itās changed their lives and how they just canāt get over it.
And there are all these thirst posts about it, and itās really become a social phenomenon, even in Russia where itās banned because as weāve discussed in other episodes, you canāt have same sex. Content. And now you canāt have antinatalists content or dink content in Russia. So the fact that this is trending even in Russia that people canāt get enough of, it, shows how hard it is, especially for women to resist male on male romance.
And in general, apparently the show is actually really good. It has a 98% un rotten tomatoes. And apparently itās really well cast and written and [00:11:00] the, the chemistry is really strong between the, the male leads who have this romance. And then thereās just this massive online community with people making viral clips.
And there are even fan events, like there was even a fan event in the Philippines. So this isnāt just Russia. Okay, this isnāt just the United States or Canada. This is literally a global phenomenon. Well, no,
Malcolm Collins: but whatās interesting about this is. People found out the secret, right? Yeah. When you, they kept putting gay people in everything and nobody wanted to watch it uhhuh because they put gay people in stuff.
Mm-hmm. But the audience for it was gay people. Yeah. If you wanna put hot lesbians and stuff, guys arenāt gonna complain about that. We can. No, no. Thatās the thing is, is
Simone Collins: go woke, go broke has one massive exception and itās when , the wokeness is for a leering, non woke audience that just wants to thirst over when you are objectifying
Malcolm Collins: the person.
Simone Collins: Yeah. When you we, yes. When, when you are objectifying. Yeah. Like you have to me too. The woke people. [00:12:00] And then, and then itās great when theyāre being exploited, when theyāre being layered at, when people are fing over, you know them, then, then itās, then itās gonna totally make money. The thing
Malcolm Collins: that, itās not even about fing.
Like, I donāt think that many women are like, fing over this. And thereās a lot of stuff that guys alike where you have sexy women and people arenāt actually fing over it. Right? Sure. They arenāt. Malcolm, they, the, the, the, you didnāt need to be able to fap to like the original Laura Croft to prefer looking at an attractive woman as your avatar over a man, as your avatar.
And this is the thing today, everyone is all like, oh, all the main characters are women, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. I, I think that we, you know, broadly on the right. We need to recategorize how weāre saying this. No one had a problem with stellar bladeās. Main character being a woman. In fact, we loved it until they decided to start censoring it.
You know? The, the, the, the problem is, is that they are ugly women that are meant to be non-threatening to the studio people who are putting these in. We need to not, [00:13:00] itās not that we are against, women being, being in our video games or in our, they just need
Simone Collins: to be hot.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah.
Simone Collins: We just want them. Weāre not against same, same sex relationships.
We, they just need to be hot. Actually, you know what a really good point though about itās not a lot of the same sex couples, no hold on. The same sex couples that are in the goo Go broke like Disney movies and stuff is that they one, arenāt hot. And two, itās all about like interpersonal conflict and my feelings and our struggles.
And no one wants to watch that. They like
Malcolm Collins: kids. No, but thereās, the point Iām making is they donāt need to be. Hot. They need to be objectified. That is even more important than being hot, right? Like the oh, my struggles and stuff. Thatās not objectifying them, right? Mm-hmm. Theyāre humanizing. Oh, so you need to dehumanize them.
Thatās not accurate though, because No, I didnāt say you need to dehumanize them. You need to objectify them. So if you look at something like, letās take Tomb Raider, Laura Croft, by the way. Right?
Simone Collins: Okay. [00:14:00] Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: If you watch the way Laura Croft runs or jumps at a ledge, or,
Malcolm Collins: oh, so basically
Simone Collins: you need fan service.
Malcolm Collins: Itās no, but she does it in a way that is objectified. Right? If you look at the new Laura Croft games, which did pretty well, and I quite liked the Laura Croft reboots what is the number one thing that we are doing to Laura Croft in those games? We are putting her in horrible situations where she is getting horrifyingly injured or beaten.
That is, that is what is constantly happening to her, and she is never whining about it. Okay?
Malcolm Collins: The, the jazz animation dying are over the top, and I have never seen death animations like that. Theyāre, theyāre literally like above Mortal Kombat level [00:15:00] death animation. Are you serious? Because the Mortal Kombat ones just look over the top and gruesome, and these look very realistic.
Oh, no. God, like, you know, like getting caught in a river. And then a stake go through her, her chin and up through the side of her head. Oh, gosh. Wow. A fast river while hitting a bunch of B Rock. Okay. So stuff, itās over the top, but what Iām saying is that, is objectifying the individual, right?
Like, well, I canāt, I havenāt watched,
Simone Collins: I havenāt watched the show. Okay, hold on. Letās go back. The,
Malcolm Collins: the character who everyone always says is like, oh, men, like strong female leads, blah, blah, blah. Strong female leads are, okay. Is Ridley from aliens, right? Ripley, Ripley, rip Ripley, Ripley Ripley from, so Ripley is actually a fairly objectified character throughout the Alien series.
So, okay. What, what is it that has happened to her? What, what happened to her? She was forcibly impregnated with an alien [00:16:00] that was put inside her without her consent. No,
Simone Collins: she wasnāt. One of her crew mates was,
Malcolm Collins: she was in number two, the one that did really well. She was, yeah, thatās her whole thing. And then she be, takes on like a mother role in like number three or four or something to one of the areas.
No, I remember that. That was created from her DNA, so not only is is she in, in most of them, sheās either taking on a, a motherly role. Like thereās the one that had like the ghostly version. It was the last like decent one made.
Simone Collins: I remember one with a little girl hiding in the ventilation and I wonāt remember the first one.
Yeah, that was the
Malcolm Collins: first one and she wasnāt forcibly. But even in that one, if you look at the role that she takes on, it is very much an objectified girl, boss wrote role. Very much like if youāre gonna say like, whatās an example of a guy taking on an objectified masculine role? Iād say blade is a very good example of a guy taking on an objectified masculine role.
Itās not a realistic masculine role. [00:17:00] Itās a role that is over the top to the point of being fetishized.
Simone Collins: Okay. I think I may follow you, but Iām not, I donāt actually think that this show does that. I mean, itās really known for having. Just amazing direction and character development youāre forgetting, youāre looking at this totally through the male gaze, and youāre not thinking about the female gaze on the male gaze, AKA, the men who love each other.
You are thinking about this as a man looking at women. You are not thinking about this as the way that women look at men and totally the thing that women like isnāt, I mean, yeah, the bodies look good, but theyāre there for the romantic tension. Thatās what yiās all about. Thatās what heated rivalry is all about.
And so I I, I, I appreciate your explanation of how men look at this when theyāre looking at female [00:18:00] characters. But the thing that drives female interest in male romance is, is different. Itās a different dynamic that you do not understand.
Malcolm Collins: No. Hold on. Actually, Iām gonna, Iām gonna push back. Youāre gonna mansplain on this.
I youāre gonna explain to me how women
Simone Collins: consume gay content.
Malcolm Collins: I watch enough anime that there have been seasons when I run out of anime that is not Yi. And so I say, okay, Iāll try whatever the, the, it has an interesting premise. Okay. You
Simone Collins: only watched two episodes of Yuri on Ice.
Malcolm Collins: Iāve watched other ones to the end.
Okay. That were like sci-fi and I was more interested in Iām, Iām not like reflexively against it because first of all, you gotta keep in mind if, if youāre like watching this and youāre like, what, what does he mean? Like, does this stuff have sex in it usually? Actually never have I seen it have sex in it.
Yeah. This is, this is just like for girls with a lot of ywe stuff. Itās just like suggestive stuff. And then youāve got some sci-fi story happening in the background anyway. The point Iām making is they do [00:19:00] not form relationships that are like real relationships the relationships that they form.
Think about you, you say youāve read Yahweh before. Does, does the type of relationship that the two men form, does it look like the type of romance you see between a man and a woman in a mango?
Simone Collins: No. Not at all. No,
Malcolm Collins: it doesnāt. Itās completely objectified. It is. What? And, and actually thereās a, even like a thing online, like a trend of this where gay men watch or, or read ywe and then react to laughingly at the, at the way that women portray gay male relationship.
Oh, just how,
Simone Collins: like, this is not how it works at all. Yeah, yeah. Like this
Malcolm Collins: is not how it works at all.
Simone Collins: And itās not, itās really not. Because I when, when I have sleepless nights and I. Get curious and I just donāt, Iām too stressed and I wanna like forget who I am. I go to all the NSFW subreddits, so I know, I know all the fetishes, I know all the weird stuff that people consume, and therefore I [00:20:00] also have seen a lot of gay porn.
And I, Iāve, and I like, you know, we, weāve all like, we we also have gay friends too. No, like, it, because like y Yahweh is very, itās typically about like crushes turning into romantic tension, turning into like these encounters, whereas like out out gay relationships as we know them, are a lot more based and effective and pragmatic.
I think the biggest differentiation that I see between the typical male romance as depicted in Ywe and I think probably also in heated rivalry is that there are a lot more closeted and thereās a lot more tension and crushes and dancing around things, whereas in, in real life. Youāre just getting basically men being much more optimal partners for each other than women could ever be for men.
I donāt know how else to put it. So like, I mean, I, Iād point
Malcolm Collins: out to people that that [00:21:00] this is very similar to if, if you like, showed a lesbian, lesbian like porn, mint for men, lesbian porn, mint for men. They say this is nothing like what actual lesbian sex is like. Well, yeah, I mean
Simone Collins: also like, just look at how morphologically different erotic material online lesbians look from.
Lesbians at Trader Joeās, you know what I mean? Theyāre very, itās a different look. Itās a very different look,
Malcolm Collins: but itās, itās both
Simone Collins: lovely. But
Malcolm Collins: I, I think youāre getting a better example of what men would want to do to women, or what women want men to do to them when theyāre in the opposite role. When youāre watching same gender stuff.
This is why in, for example, in real lesbian relationships, using strap-on is incredibly rare. Thatās just not used much in real lesbian sex
Simone Collins: Yes.
Malcolm Collins: Point. But in lesbian porn, itās incredibly common because you want one of them to take on the, the male role. Itās the same with the Yi, which youāre actually seeing is one of the men taking on a womanās role.
But weāll get into why as you go further.
Simone Collins: Yeah. So [00:22:00] letās, yeah. But anyway, I think itās really funny. Itās humorous to me that everyoneās shocked that heated rivalry is doing so well, and that women are going crazy for it. When like, literally we couldnāt even have shows like Sherlock without people.
Completely. And, and, and, and psychopath Shipping people You mean women? Yeah. Sorry. Without women obsessively pairing Watson and Sherlock in, in fan fiction that we, we canāt even have kids movies like the Lorax without people literally shipping the winsler against himself. For, for what, what, what do they call it?
Ancest one est. They, they, they, like, this is, this is how psychopathic women are in their need for, for boys love. Thereās only one character theyāre kind of into, itās okay, weāll just double him and have him have him. I donāt know. Come on to himself. Itās, itās, itās intense, this, this female instinct.
And so, [00:23:00] yeah, I, I, I want to, I want to go into Yi and Boys love and the history and the dynamics behind it because I think itās, itās interesting and, and
Malcolm Collins: I also wanna know one thing about it and, and you can tell me if you think this is wrong. Yeah. It is, it seems to be an instinct that is stronger in younger women than older women.
I
Simone Collins: could see that maybe, yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Iāll, Iāll go into why I think that is at the end, but continue, Simone.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. Perfect. So Ywe, I, I dunno. When you first learned about Ywe, I learned about it when I was. In high school, and my friends who let me, all their manga gave me Ywe manga, and we all nerded out about it.
But it, it actually turns out I didnāt know this. Ywe has a really long history and it can argue, arguably go back to the first novel. I donāt know if youāve heard of the, the Tale of Gen Genji. It, itās, itās argued that that was historyās first novel ācause it was a, a story written in narrative form.
Are you familiar with it at all?
Malcolm Collins: No. Tell me more. Well, we talked about it. I remember I read a bit of it and it just wasnāt that [00:24:00] impressive to me. But itās not, but
Simone Collins: I mean, what, what are you gonna do? You know? But like, itās also so funny though that like the worldās first bromance is also one of the earliest stories now that I come to think of it.
That, you know, the tale of Gilgamesh we had Anky do and was, it was his name Giles? It was Giles. It was a total bromance. Boys. Boys love. But anyway, the first novel for sure had at least a little bit. It was, it was, it was by the Japanese noble women, mur Kashi Shiku in the early 11th century. And while itās not okay, a dedicated boys love novel.
There is one episode in which Genji and a beautiful boy named Kmi, the younger brother of Lady U oh, Tsui kind of get together. Okay. Like he, he first tries to come on to Lady Zumi, but then she isnāt that into him. So he, comforts himself in, [00:25:00] in bed or consoles himself in bed with, with Kmi. So that implies that heās, heās bi, but I mean the, the, the, the rest of the tales focus on his romances with women.
But thereās still a moment I, I feel like the author here, maybe a fan girl a little bit with some boys love, but Yi is a genre didnāt emerge until Girls Monga got big in the 1970s and this Japanese fan fiction culture emerged. And I think Fanfic Can Fiction culture correlates really highly with the prevalence of boys love romance.
And I think this has to do with the fact that women are really into it. But mainstream society doesnāt want to condone it, so youāre only gonna see it when women are unleashed and allowed to write things. And as soon as theyāre allowed to, or as soon as, as, as their secret writings become more public through weird market dynamics like the rise of Doji Q, which is just basically.
Fan fiction, but Naked Manga and in Japan then, then you get it. [00:26:00] But boy, boy Romance was not necessarily pioneered by fan fiction. Thereās this 1961 book by Mari Maury called A Lovers Forest, which is often cited as the first modern Japanese novel focused on male homosexual passion. And it was written by a woman for women.
So this really falls well into the category, and it did influence later boys love in Ywe tropes like age gaps and aesthetic Beauty and tragedy. And then later, about a decade later, in the early 1970s, the year 24 group, which was a collective of influential manga artists that were born in the 24th year of the Shoah era, pioneered sh and I, which is.
Translated to boys love the key figures, created romantic and often very tragic stories featuring very beautiful and very androgynous young men. Which youāve probably heard of as bi in male male relationships, which were often influenced by [00:27:00] European art and sort of made to be very foreign maybe kind of to, to get you out of Japanese culture and morays.
But then the launch of a magazine called June in 1978 was really something that skyrocketed the genre because itās specialized in this kind of content and formalize the genre. But really the, the fan fiction explosion in Japan is what made Yi big. There was this comic market called Comic Cat, which was first held in 1975.
Where Dochy fans were able to come together and kind of just all realize that they had these secret fantasies and stories that they wrote that were boys love focused. And this is where you start to see the, the word yi bandied about. Because, you know, before itās, and even after, like itās really been called boys love mostly, but I didnāt know.
Yi is a port mento coming from three, three words really. So the YAI and [00:28:00] ii and this translates to no climax, no point, no meaning, or sometimes no peak, no punchline and no meaning, which gets to your point that there often really isnāt like much going on in these plots. You know, itās just sort of all like tension and vibes.
So I think you really zero in on something meaningful there. And it was. I think people who created Ywe as fan fiction have always been very self-deprecating and joking and ironic. Like they understand that what they create is, is s muddy fluff. And they, they, they donāt take themselves very seriously and they have fun with it.
But you also totally see this in the heated rivalry posts that people are making now online. They understand that theyāre, theyāre being kind of tery and funny and that this is utterly unserious, but they also just love it and canāt help themselves. And I think thatās really interesting. And I mean basically after the 1980s, YWE was here to stay, but [00:29:00] it kind of evolved more just broadly into boys love.
And it went from being something that was primarily fan fiction or in really niche publications to stuff that was just mainstream. So by the time you get to like the 2010s, you get to show like the one we mentioned, Yuri on Ice, which. Involves, we didnāt really explain what it was. It, itās basically about this relationship between the Japanese figure skater, Yuri Kazuki and his idol, whoās this Russian figure skater champion named Victor Nikki for of, or I canāt remember his last name.
I think itās Nikki for of, or something like that. And then this other, other skater also called Yuri like Yuri, Yuri Ky. And basically the two Yuriās compete in this grand figure skating Grand Prix. And Victor is the coach to the Japanese Yuri, who is a crush on him and is like the, just the idol.
And itās just really sweet and itās really cute. And it was, it was award-winning. It did really well. It [00:30:00] only had, I think, 12 episodes or something. And it ran maybe from like 20, 20 16 or something. We didnāt see it until the. Like 2018 or something, I think. But
yeah.
Yeah, it was made a long time ago, but it was by that point mainstream, which is why I thought it was a major, it was a major enemy, and of course it made it to like American streaming platforms.
So, yeah. But then, I mean thatās, itās just so funny though that some, thereās something about male love on ice that we just canāt get enough of. In fact, I tried to see if the, the writer of the original heated rivalry book was inspired by Yuri on Ice because the timeline kind of worked for me.
And the author and all the people also associated with the original creation of the show cite tons of real world hockey rivalries and all sorts of other inspirations. So itās not like they donāt talk about their inspiration, but apparently this is just truly convergently evolved fetishization of men on ice [00:31:00] skates being into each other because they do not cite Uri on ice at all.
And it appears that they really have no, they have no hat nods to each other. Like, heated rivalry has, doesnāt do anything to kind of hint at the fact that it was inspired by Yuri on Ice.
Malcolm Collins: I mean, Yuri on Ice is not about rivalry, itās about like, mentorship and, and close. It appears to be a different dynamic that theyāre playing.
Yeah,
Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: They like the, the characters are made to look very vulnerable in Yuri on Ice.
Simone Collins: Well, the characters are, are, are somewhat vulnerable and, and heated rivalry too. But yeah, I mean, itās, it would be as if well I guess we didnāt watch all of Yuri on Ice. I donāt know if the two Yuri also kind of get into each other, but I think, I mean, at least as far as we saw Intuit, it was only about, the, yeah, this was like trainer student dynamic or I idol and fan dynamic instead. Iām, Iām just not sure though, so who knows? But we should point out that there was also this really, the big first major wave of slash fiction did [00:32:00] also emerge around the 16 and seventies at the same time in the United States.
So itās not like this is just a Japanese thing. And as our, our paid subscriber pointed out this, this is kind of a, a cross-cultural thing. This is not limited to any particular subgroup. Do you know what the first really big popular pairing in a fictional and universe in. Zines in nerdy zines in the 1960s and 74.
Yeah, of course
Malcolm Collins: it was Spock and Kirk, thatās, Colin knows their, the history of porn knows this one back and forth, Simone,
Simone Collins: the OTP, you gotta, you gotta, they must kiss, they must be together forever. Yes, you were absolutely right. So, yes, I, this is, this is something again, and I, I really donāt, I donāt think itās that this is a new instinct.
I just think that this was the era in which fans were finally able to converge and share their dirty little secrets. And thatās how it all came to be. So anyway, I think that thatās, thatās interesting. But letās answer the question, [00:33:00] why are women into boys love? And thereās first, I think, the really obvious answer that everyone gives, which is that for women especially, this is a, a way to very safely explore their desires and kind of es escape.
The things that hold them back sexually while still really indulging. So when theyāre watching these romances and even when they get pretty steamy and explicit, they can do so in a way that really feels escapist and fun because they, all of their insecurities are out of the picture. Theyāre not thinking about, well, how do my boobs compare?
Or like, my thighs, or like, they, they also, I think women feel a lot of pressure to perform Oh, and men do too sexually. And I think for both men and women, same sex erotic material, it can be comforting or at least less disjointed because they donāt feel the need or as much prompting to think personally about their own performance.
[00:34:00] Theyāre just. Completely enjoying the I guess eroticism or sexuality. Iām gonna,
Malcolm Collins: Iām gonna argue that this is what women often say.
Simone Collins: Yeah. And
Malcolm Collins: they actually mean something else. When they say this,
Simone Collins: tell me what you think they mean.
Malcolm Collins: So. If you watch or read like, ywe books, right. Uhhuh you will see that if it was a real relationship, as we have said already, you would find the situation quite comical often.
Yeah. So like, this is ridiculous. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The reality is, is that women, if they saw a woman being objectified in the way that one of the male partners typically is, because one of the things thatās very common in Yahweh tropes is one of the males needs to be saved. He needs to be rescued. Heās incredibly vulnerable.
Heās incredibly unsure of himself, and a lot of modern women, if they saw a woman acting like that, the one who is [00:35:00] in the, the female role, often theyād be like, this is objectifying. This makes me uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Like, why is she, why does she need to be saved? Why is she acting so vulnerable? That was the next thing on
Simone Collins: my list actually.
I was like, you know, it really helps. That when itās male, male romance, you get to avoid gender politics. Politics and gender wars. And in an era, especially now when thereās this increasing animosity and political divide between men and women, when itās just two men that is just totally removed from the picture.
Men, you donāt have to think about all, but men are the enemy, men are the aggressor. Men are the, like, where was there consent? Like that just has been removed from the lexicon of this scenario and people could just have fun again. And I really do think thatās majorly underrated. Thatās a really good point.
Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay. Continue.
Simone Collins: So some also argue that thereās an emotional depth thing going on that that male friendships and media often carry really intense bonds that women in just like to romanticize or eroticize. And I [00:36:00] find this theory really interesting because a common theme that came up when I was really into red pill forums, like around, weāll say like 20 between 2017 and 2019.
It was often discussed that women are incapable of love. This was a really common statement and I didnāt get it because I am a, an autistic refrigerator mom who of course is incapable of love and also is incapable of imagining and all the other things. So I was like, well, I donāt know. Maybe they, maybe they canāt, maybe they can.
It just seems odd to say that one that, that all females canāt love. But then I hear, I hear this theory and Iām like, wait a second. Maybe the red pillars are right. Maybe women love, well, maybe women are incapable of love. And also women know it too, and thatās why they like to watch men love each other, because they love to observe these strange creatures who are capable of love.
Oh my God. That is the most
Malcolm Collins: based Simone. Simone thatās going at the front of the video. I That is. That is, I had never [00:37:00] considered this before. Right. Right. And I think you might be right. I think, I think Iām on, women are aware of how sociopathic women act in relationships.
Simone Collins: Alts, and then this proves, this proves it.
We finally found the proof to the Red pill theory that women arenāt capable of love, which is the fact that when women want True romance, they watch two men loving each other.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Theyāre like, theyāre like, one of the, when they see a woman in it, theyāre like, one of these women has to be, you know? Yeah.
Theyāre like, itās fake. Sheās in it for money.
Simone Collins: Sheās in it for money that this is Yeah. I, I, I want real love. She didnāt just to screw him. I want, I want something thatās true. Like I want true love. I wanna watch true love between two people. It can only happen between two men. Yeah. Itās, yeah. Thatās, so thereās that.
Thereās of course the aesthetic appeal, but you know, like women like looking at male bodies, and itās the same with men wanting to watch lesbian porn. You just wanna look at the, you wanna look at the body type youāre attracted to. You donāt wanna look at your own body. Well, I mean, I
Malcolm Collins: donāt, again, I donāt think that thatās the, the, the reason why men, like lesbian, lesbian porn is more like a, [00:38:00] a deeper biological instinct because you donāt want any other men in your, like, you really donāt want any other men anywhere near a woman who you want carrying your child.
Right? Yeah.
Simone Collins: I, Iāve, well, hereās the thing actually though, I, I have to say, like, having seen a lot of drawn and real, just, Iāve seen all the porn in, in male female porn, even when itās made for women, the men are disgusting. And their penises are disgusting. I donāt know what to tell you. Like they arenāt gross.
I dunno who is
Malcolm Collins: watching that stuff because like,
Simone Collins: I, I dunno who, I dunno who is either because itās gross and, but also even in hentai male bodies. Ooh. Like in, in, in hentai oriented around men.
Malcolm Collins: It de depends. I mean Iāve, Iāve definitely seen that in some, and I always find it really weird when thatās the case.
Itās,
Simone Collins: yeah. Why, why are the men so
Malcolm Collins: disgusting? No, but thereās, thereās a type of like fetish that I guess is not that uncommon for like older or ugly or fat men to be the, itās, well that shows
Simone Collins: up [00:39:00] a lot in he tide, but in but I donāt know what it is. I think in live, in live action corn. For women, the men are gross.
They, they are not attractive. Maybe, maybe theyāre attractive to someone, but theyāre not attractive to me. And they also donāt look like the, the men that women thirst after in fan fiction communities, or like the men on the covers of romances books or like the Men Who star. Okay. Movies for women. They donāt look like any of those.
They donāt look like the, I have,
Malcolm Collins: I have a thesis on why this is the case, Simone,
Simone Collins: because women like high value, smart, and capable men, and those men donāt go to become porn stars.
Malcolm Collins: Okay. I, I have a thesis on this. Okay, fine. Here is the thesis. It goes like this. So you, youāve got somebody like me whoās just so averse to the idea of watching another guy have sex with a woman that Iām like, what?
Why? That is the worst thing in the world. Right? Okay. But thereās other guys who might be able to watch this happening, but just completely blot out from their minds. The, the man in the, in the act. [00:40:00] Mm-hmm. Itās just them. And because theyāre blotting out the man in their mind, theyāre not focusing on the man at all.
Simone Collins: Malcolm, I am talking about erotic material that was filmed and shot for female audiences what Iām saying is that in, in stuff for women, the men donāt look like the men cast in movies that women watch, they donāt look like the men that women fantasize about in fan fiction.
They donāt look like any of those and they also donāt look like popular men. Among women in, in real life. They look gross. And so I guess I have not seen, but when you look at gay erotic material, the men look fantastic. So whatās up with that? And of course, you donāt look at, first, you donāt even look at live action erotic material.
ācause itās gross. And I get it because it is gross. And you keep thinking of like, this is someoneās son, this is someoneās daughter, this is someone, you know, itās blah, thereās too much baggage. But like, even if you did, you wouldnāt look at the stuff thatās made for female audiences. But Iām telling you [00:41:00] it, the men are, no, Iām pulling it up right now.
Iām pulling up
Malcolm Collins: the porn for women in Chick-fil-A subreddit. I wanna, I wanna see what youāre talking about.
Simone Collins: Youāll see exactly what I mean. And Iām like, what is going on? But anyway, if you actually, if you, if you thing, if your source of arousal as a woman is gorgeous male bodies, youāre gonna watch gay men.
Malcolm Collins: Period. Youāre, you are right. This
Simone Collins: is told you, Iām told. I know. What is that? So anyway, I do actually think that that is, that is a thing. Itās not that, oh well, like evolutionarily, I, I get what point And thatās real. And women arenāt, they, they donāt really need. They donāt need to see like the, the presence of a woman isnāt defensive, but thatās not the problem.
The problem is that the men arely in straight live action porn for women. Anyway, thereās also a theory among some that thereās a power dynamic element to this too, that in heterosexual couplings, the power dynamics are more restrictive. I mean, at the very least, you have the same phenomenon you have [00:42:00] in sports where thereās just one party thatās much stronger than the other.
So that just kind of changes the way that any sort of scenario would play out. And with two men, itās, itās different or things just feel more like thereās more flexibility in how things can play out. And so allegedly thatās something thatās, thatās less weak. To me, the most interesting thing of all these theories for me was the men are capable of real love.
Thatās,
Malcolm Collins: yeah, I, I, I think I think thatās a big one. And I think the other big one is that the, the characters in it are so objectified that if they saw a woman being treated this way, yeah, they would feel uncomfortable due to feminist brainwashing.
Simone Collins: Yeah, no, the politics element of that is, is huge.
And I do think now more than ever, thereās so much baggage, cultural baggage around me too, and, and consent and all these, ah, and itās just so annoying, especially given that we know, statistically speaking, many women are reading into non-consent and itās really hard. Thereās a lot [00:43:00] of cognitive dissonance that would come to a woman whoās into non-consent, whoās into power dynamics, but who also sees herself as all about consent.
Thatās and all about female empowerment.
Malcolm Collins: Thatās a good point actually. And this is
Simone Collins: the one way where she can get non-consent and she can get one power party being disempowered without feeling any cognitive dissonance or, you know, oh, Iām failing my kind, Iām failing my in, you know, my internal model. You know, theyāre, theyāre not
Malcolm Collins: because itās just guys.
There was a a, a scene thatās really common in Ywe which is when one of the, the guys sort of forces himself to kiss the other guy, you know, like, know itās so hot. Itās so hot. The other guyās like not really into it. And yeah, you saw this happening to a girl, youād freak out. Yeah. Youād be
Simone Collins: like, or, or, or it would be hot for you, but youād be like, Hmm.
But I feel guilty about feeling good about it. You know what I mean? Like, itās, itās, they donāt, and, and then it ruins the vibe because you, you wanna just, yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Thereās another so I read a lot of people who watch the podcast regularly know this, a lot of romance books, [00:44:00] not romance books, romance mangas made in South Korea for women about the like regency era, right?
Like, I just really love, like villain is sent to the pastor. Yeah. Like literally itās,
Simone Collins: itās dinner and heās surrounded by kids who are literally climbing on him, but heās still reading this.
Malcolm Collins: I am, Iāve got to see her do her thing at the vault. He needs to know, he needs to know what happens next. So I got, I get so addicted to these, love these.
And what I love about them now is so many good ones are being made into anime now. Oh really? Well, I recently saw one of the ones that I read that I really liked which was Dr. Elise is being made into an anime thatās coming out soon. And thereās a great, Iām actually rewatching one right now like, on trying to be the best villainist, I, I forget what itās called, like Iām gonna be a villainist remembered for all time.
And I like it ācause it reminds me of myself. You know, you, you go back in time and instead of trying to be the hero, sheās like, Iām gonna be the greatest villainist ever. ācause reincarnated as a, as an a tome villainist. But anyway, so I really like these, which means I get a lot of ads for other [00:45:00] things in this sort of category and on Web tens.
Yeah. The ad that I get the most, so much so that I actually clicked through once.
An ad. I get so much that I actually got it in between filming this episode .
Last night and then immediately going to edit it and go to bed. So within like an hour and a half of filming this episode, thatās how I have a picture of the ad.
Malcolm Collins: It was like, I, this is such a weird setting. Iām gonna see what this is like. Okay. Iām only able to read one chapter of it and I,
I just, it didnāt grab me
The reason I thought it might is itās world seemed reminiscent of Beast stars, which is one of my favorite animes, .
Because it took the idea of something like Zootopia in saying like. And I think Zootopia, , I hate the way it subverts the actual interesting question that could be asked, which is to say, what if you had a society of a bunch of hominid like creatures that were genetically different and had different needs and capabilities and psychological profiles.
And then Zootopia says, but they arenāt actually different [00:46:00] and none of them are actually a threat to any of the other one. And, it is a conspiracy that any of them could be a threat to any of the other ones. Whereas in B Stars, they say no, , theyāre a prey species and theyāre a predator species.
And the predator species want to kill and eat the prey species, but they hold that in and they have systemic differences in the way that they see the world and the way they engage with the world. And we will try to stitch together a simulacrum of an equal society in spite of that.
Which thank God isnāt a question that we need to grapple with in our modern society. That different groups may have genetic differences from each other, and saying that our society is equal in spite of that and pretending that itās equal in spite of that can cause systemic issues.
To get an understanding of just how based and interesting this world is. Thereās this scene at the beginning of it where you see a rabbit girl who is clearly one of the protagonists being teased for being a slut, and of course, in any other [00:47:00] anime youād be like, oh, this is horrible. Sheās being teased for being a slut.
But then itās revealed that the reason why this other subspecies of bunny is so angry at her is because she is. Hitting on one of the males of her subspecies, and theyāre an endangered subspecies, and if they keep outbreeding, theyāre going to go extinct.
Malcolm Collins: because I was like, this is, I donāt know, itās gonna be boring and weird, but Iāll, Iāll give you the plot and youāll immediately understand why you couldnāt do this with women.
Okay. Okay. So itās a world where, a, it is an answer world, like a furry world. Okay. Okay. And society is divided into praise omnivores and predators where predators sort of hold most positions of power and bully. The other classes omnivores are sort of middling and prey species are seen as like the lower class and are very much forced to take on sort of submissive roles in society.
Okay. Okay. And so, an omnivore dog boy goes to school, but pretends that heās a wolf so that [00:48:00] he wonāt get, like you say, that he can have the higher status and everything like that behind course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Heās, he, heās the nerd
Simone Collins: pretending to be the jock.
Malcolm Collins: Yes. A a, a, a, a fox boy whoās clearly the, the, like male coded one in this male, male relationship.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He finds out. That this boy is actually an omnivore. So he has this black male information on him. Oh, no. Itās clear that this black male information on that heās actually submissive and he actually wants to be submissive because heās just an omnivore you know, obviously taking from like omegaverse strokes.
Right. But the point being is that, you know, in a womanās story, if it was a woman who was hiding her status and the guy knew the real truth, right. Like, I think a lot of women would feel very uncomfortable about that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Simone Collins: yeah. Thereās, thereās too much baggage there for sure.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah.
But somebody whoās trying to hook up with her, like, I donāt wanna mm-hmm. But when men are victimizing men, thatās totally okay. Hot even.
Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. [00:49:00] No, because I, well, thatās, itās the dynamic that women find arousing. They just culturally have been programmed to feel immense amounts of guilt and cognitive dissonance if they.
Condone or abide by those things. But we should also touch on, on, again, the, the nails. Actually,
Malcolm Collins: another thing I wanna touch on in this category. Okay. Because I read a lot of these books and a lot of these con I I see the, the types of sort of media thatās really targeted at women. Right.
Okay. Because Iām reading just tons of it. Yeah. When they have a woman as the, the, the lead character, right. Like, because a lot of mine involve romances, right. The woman is almost never objectified. I, you know, I, I will not say almost ever. I would say categorically never. Not one in like the 45 I have read.
Well, and this also shows up so much
Simone Collins: in, in romantic novels, and itās really annoying because the women and oh, and even, even even novels like the Outlander series, I canāt read them because the women are so. [00:50:00] Can I say Cty? Are you gonna allow me to say cty? Because theyāre so cty, theyāre so rude and theyāre so entitled and theyāre so like, Iām not gonna like you.
Youāll just go down on me. And weāre weāll never have sex ever. And like it, theyāre just really rude and mean and dismissive towards them. Yeah. I and I, and I real love interest,
Malcolm Collins: all of the ones Iāve read, the 45 that I have read there has not been a single sexy, itās so
Simone Collins: annoying. Like, whatās the point?
Malcolm Collins: I donāt know.
I would actually really hate a sex scene. I, Iād be like, I wanna get back to the story. Iām reading this for the well, but
Simone Collins: whatās worse is, I mean, as you know, I have like a very strong aversion to men going down on women. And thatās, that is, that is the sex scene. That hasnāt happened.
Malcolm Collins: Any of the Korean ones, lemme tell you, the Korean women are board with you on this.
You know, theyāre like, I guess I have that gene. Yeah. Theyāre like, I, I do not want, it has not, it has not happened. It has not been suggested to, it has not been talked about. Itās pervasive
Simone Collins: in romantic. I donāt know [00:51:00] whatās up with that. But itās also pretty pervasive in female oriented. And NSFW stuff online at least in Western audiences.
If you watch our video on how parasites affect human sexuality, and we point out that liking to have guys go down on you is more common in women with specific parasites that can be transmitted by this. All of a sudden this makes sense if Korean women are actually not sleeping around a lot, which they are not.
Korean women barely have any sex, , especially casual sex. , And women in America, especially the white women who are pushing this, are sleeping around a lot. It means that they may have caught these parasites and thatās why theyāre reading these books and they are promoting this idea that itās really normal for guys to go down on girls.
Simone Collins: Yeah. The,
Malcolm Collins: the one scene that you see occasionally, and Iād say that this is the most sexual scene you will see in these. Okay. And itās in, Iād say like one out of four of them is the scene where the woman has fallen on her back and the man has [00:52:00] fallen on top of her for whatever reason. And Oh, thatās classic anime.
Her skirt is like to hear,
right? Like, itās fall because sheās wearing one of those big Victorian skirts and you could see of course, part of her leg finally. And youāre like, oh, the, the legacy scene.
Simone Collins: Well, the man accidentally on top of the womanās scene or vice versa in, in the courtyard, of course.
Mm-hmm. Well letās, letās also get back to what this this patron mentioned about why are women so into just having gay friends that, because Iāve seen this happen too, where. Girls, especially as you said, young girls, even to just guy friends in school wish they were gay or say things like, I wish you were gay.
Malcolm Collins: So okay, letās talk about why women want gay friends and why guys who arenāt stupid want gay friends.
Simone Collins: And like, you do want, no, not not stupid guys who arenāt insecure. I think it has to do with sexual [00:53:00] insecurity
Malcolm Collins: maybe, but, okay. So, first from a guyās perspective, ācause itās just really easy from a guyās perspective.
Mm-hmm. My best friends have almost always been gay except for like right now in life. And thatās because my best friend is my wife and I donāt leave my house much. But like throughout high school, your your male best
Simone Collins: friends if, if not family have been.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And this was during the period where, you know, people who know, back in the day I used to sleep around constantly.
Right. And with women, I should probably say with women, yes. Yes. Just sleep around constantly was women. And one of the reasons I was able to do that is because I had. Gay friends, so okay, consider this. You walk up to a group of girls and youāre hanging out with two gay friends. Okay? Now you, a group of three men walked up to three women, except thereās really only one choice for those three women in that group.
Or it works this way. Your gay friends and you go out to a bar or a club and a woman starts to hit on them. They donāt like that, so [00:54:00] they say, Hey, I am ex, but my friend over there is into girls. Is he your type? And then you get handed the girl. Right? Thatās
Simone Collins: so funny because experiments also show thatās straight women rate.
Mating related advice from gay men is more trustworthy than advice from straight men or other women because they do not suspect hidden sexual motives or rivalry. And they also suggest women feel that gay male friends value them more beyond their bodies, which boost their self-esteem. And also they feel like gay men are more trustworthy because theyāre not sexual competition.
Like thereās all these, you know, I mean weāve had all these other episodes where we kind of hinted the fact that a lot of female behavior that is, is very crab in the bucket ish, where theyāre kind of pulling other women down or encouraging other women to indulge in being overweight or ugly or to just make themselves worse comes from a place of sexual rivalry.
So I had only thought about it from the female perspective, but youāre right from a male [00:55:00] perspective, gay might ga may, sorry. Gay male friends are great for guys too, ācause theyāre also not sexual rivals. Yes, but, but unicorn friends,
Malcolm Collins: it gets better than that too. So another thing is people say, oh Malcolm, you know, you look gay or you look whatever, right?
Like this is a thing that people say all the time. And Iām like, that makes it even better to have a gay best friend. Because that means that the girl who went to hit on the guy who often looked kind of gay and he says, Hey, are you into guys like that? Itās another guy who looks kind of gay. Yeah.
Sometimes probably is into it. That actually,
Simone Collins: yeah, that that is an underrated. Thatās an underrated tactic. Gay guys will occasionally gay because women, like gay men.
Malcolm Collins: Gay guys will occasionally hit on me and then I can pass them to my friend. Right? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you have that, but then you have the secondary dynamic, which is really cool too.
Yeah. Which is to say that, what did I say? Gays? Itās gays. Yes. Gays and women. So, the problem with other women is one, the [00:56:00] thing that you said, itās been well shown that women are constantly trying to sabotage each other. Mm-hmm. And you even see this as a stereotype of the gay male friend.
The stereotype of a group of female friends is one woman goes out and she goes do I look fat? And all of the women who donāt want her to lose weight and want her to lose in sexual competitions mm-hmm. All go, oh no, you look great. And the gay maleās best friend is like, itās like now you look fat girl, you look ridiculous right now.
Yeah, yeah. You need to lose a few pounds because, but you actually even see this in the stereotypes, right? Mm-hmm. They, yeah, yeah, yeah. Theyāre less likely to act in a crab in the bucket dynamic, but itās more than that. The second point is that women are just generically terrible.
Simone Collins: So not only are they not capable of fluff, not only will they intentionally sabotage you in an act of sexual competition, but thereās more.
Thereās more.
Malcolm Collins: No, but if youāre a woman and you can be friends with the guy, but he is not going to have a, a hidden interest in eventually getting you to sleep [00:57:00] with him, Uhhuh that can be a really positive thing like that, that, that has value to you, right? Like Yeah. In terms of gaining access to specific spaces and ideologies you wouldnāt otherwise get access to.
Like this is in part how gays, especially gay men, garner a disproportionate amount of value in society than straight men, which, which you actually see, like gay men often move into an area like right before it gentrifies, for example, right? Like, they, they are a, a look at like top performers in many fields that require networking.
You will often find a disproportionate number of gay men, and that is because gay men have this hidden advantage in networking that straight men do not have. Gosh,
Simone Collins: wow. The power of the gay man.
Malcolm Collins: And, and here I should say, when I say gay men here, Iām talking about same sex attracted men who choose to live a gay lifestyle.
Like I donāt believe there is. I mean, inherently gay thing, it is just some people are born same sex attractive, and thereās many ways you can choose to live in relation,
Simone Collins: right? Yeah. I mean, a closeted gay man [00:58:00] is not gonna have this utility.
Malcolm Collins: Yes. Yes, exactly. The, the, the second thing, and I think that you hit on this really well, is, that the, yeah, no, I, I think those are the main reasons. Thatās, thatās why women like to, to hang out with them. They do not like to do it because they like to talk about gays hooking up or anything like that. I, Iāve been, because you know, I hung out with gays so much. Iāve been in plenty of the conversations.
Women do not talk with their gay friends about what the gay friends are doing. Not at
Simone Collins: all. And thatās, yeah. So what weāre really talking about, and I think itās important to highlight this, is these are two very different things. The gay best friend is very different from boys love fictional interest.
They are totally independent. So thatās, I think, quite interesting too that thereās this double interest in gay men from different angles. One, one is a fantasy angle that doesnāt really reflect reality. And one is the very interesting market dynamics that make men valuable to both men and women as friends.
And Iād never really thought through [00:59:00] those logistics and aligned incentives. But theyāre there, which is, which is great. Very interesting. Itās funny because when leftist circles discuss the trope of the gay best friends, they talk about it from an exploitative angle that like the, the, the gay best friend is, is tokenized and marginalized and kind of just used as like, oh, just be sassy and tell me things how they are, and Iām gonna just complain to you and, and not listen to you about your inner life at all.
And I, I donāt think thatās how it plays out. Like I donāt, I donāt think these are unit directional relationships, but that thatās how theyāre portrayed and theyāre not really discussed beyond that. And, and you just presented to me the most compelling and interesting discussion of the gay best friend t trope that Iāve, Iāve ever heard.
So I appreciate that.
Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you. And yeah. Did you ever, did you ever have your gay friend, token gay friend,
Or just gay friends?
Simone Collins: I had gay colleagues that I still [01:00:00] follow on social media, but I donāt think they liked me very much. And theyāre very progressive now, so Iām sure if they see me in the media, they hate me.
I still like them. Yeah. Thatās sad. Oh, well. But yeah, no, yeah, no, I, I, yeah. Yeah. In, in high school and in college, there were certainly gay guys that I hung out with and talked with a lot and really liked, I donāt know if they liked me, but I also kind of assume that everyone hates me ācause I hate myself.
Well,
Malcolm Collins: and weāll see what, what my gay friend, so Iām actually about to go to high school reunion. And I need to recheck oh, sorry. I cut out his name. Iāll cut out his name. Recheck with my friend to see what heās doing, but we had talked about driving up together.
Itās a like four hour drive or whatever, and catching up which will be a lot of fun. Mm-hmm.
Simone Collins: Lovely.
Malcolm Collins: Hearing voice trip. Yeah. [01:01:00] Well, I mean, if, I canāt imagine what if, if heās bringing his partner with him or something. I, I mean, I know heās cool with like my politics, but I donāt know about, you know, other people.
So no.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Hopefully itās okay.
Weāll see. Anyway.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We, this is, this is a lot of fun. Yeah. And that weāll see. Weāll see. I love you Simone. Good. I love,
Simone Collins: yeah. Enjoyed it. Okay, next weāre gonna do emotional support scooters. Yeah. Yes. Okay.
Do.
Malcolm Collins: by the way. Question. Somebody reached out and said they think Iāve, Iāve not been as nice to you in episodes. I think itās like when we disagree or talk over each other that they think that Iām being,
Simone Collins: whatās the, whatās the point if thereās not a little debate? A little No.
Malcolm Collins: Isnāt that like normal in marriages? I donāt know.
Simone Collins: What if we, but I think being mean is when thereās like an ad [01:02:00] hominin attack. You havenāt. I donāt think youāve ever made one on a podcast ever, so why would you? Like we talk over each other, but thatās ācause we get excited, we, we ideas. But like thereās also
Malcolm Collins: Yeah.
Simone Collins: Yeah. We have a lot of, a lot of, as as really annoying child psychologists say, we have a lot of big feelings. We have
Malcolm Collins: a lot of big feelings right now, Simone.
Simone Collins: Big feelings.
Malcolm Collins: And my big feeling is, is I have some theories. And you have some theories. Yeah. And we both wanna tell each other the theories.
Simone Collins: Yeah.
And would our conversations be, be interesting if we agreed on everything? I mean, what are they looking for? I guess a lot of the podcasts, no, I mean blocked and reported, for example, which is a very popular podcast. They disagree. But then a lot of leftist podcasts I listen to, they only agree and tell about them.
Memetically, ganging up on, on the enemy, talking about how perfect or disgusting someone is. Love you. Yeah. I donāt know. [01:03:00] Youāre perfect and I love you.
Maybe turn it up a tiny bit.
Malcolm Collins: How am I gonna look dark and mysterious and like a sexy vampire?
Simone Collins: Thatās true. Well, this, this highlights the paleness and the fact that you never go outside during the day, which I think is more vampiric.
So for people who donāt
Malcolm Collins: know, Joe Roganās show called me a Vampire. That that was the conspiracy. So I am, they didnāt exactly, they said, well, like, like vampires or something like that. But Iām going with it. Iām going with it. Thatās the, the, the, that Iām, that Iām from a, a family of vampires is what they said.
Simone Collins: The guest said that what Barnabas Collins from the Dark Shadow Series was based on The Collins family is in York Collins family.
Malcolm Collins: So based on me, vampires are based on me not the other way around. Okay.
Simone Collins: Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Somebody looked at my family and was like, vampires.
Simone Collins: Vampires. Definitely.
Malcolm Collins: I
Simone Collins: Did you see a trending topic that I sent you on X by the way, that anti-ice protest turned inspiring.
More romance [01:04:00] meme book covers and like ai, the girls
Malcolm Collins: are thirsting after ice agents and theyāre, yeah.
Simone Collins: And the, the book covers that people are making on X are hilarious. You, youāve got to click through to the link that I sent. Okay. Okay. Thereās, the books have covers like a song of fire and ice, and thereās a, a woman with blue hair kissing an ice agent and sheās wearing a bright red dress.
Thereās another book cover that reads Detained by Desire, and thereās a woman staring in an i, a masked ice agent from the window of her crappy looking car. It
Malcolm Collins: is. Utterly delightful. Hold on. Iāll, Iāll, Iāll open this. Iāll see, Iāll see if these are accurate.
Simone Collins: Thereās another, another book with the title Victimized at the protest.
Thereās a, an ice agent detaining, A woman holding an abolished ice sign. Except,
Malcolm Collins: wait, wait, so heās an ice au Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, there
Simone Collins: the other, there are ice mitas. In some ways, yeah. And people are going all that with [01:05:00] mean desire. But what good, and these are delightful and I would read them, but what actually was trending?
Kind of, I think maybe the book covers were being made in response to this, but people noticed on some chat sites that Womenās Ice agent role play was trending. You know, women fantasizing about,
Malcolm Collins: oh, I like this quote here. A Handmaidās Tale is fetish material, by the way. See our episode on that If you donāt believe that it is.
Yeah. Pretending itās a political critique is like pretending 50 shades of gray is about the excess influence of the billionaire class.
Simone Collins: Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: I, oh, I, I love this. Christians, we should stop abortion feminists. I want you to grate me Christians. What feminists. You want to imprison me and put me in a costume and I have high status men f me and impregnate me Christians.
What Feminist panting theyāre wives will hold my wrist while he dries themselves [01:06:00] deep into my fertile God.
Simone Collins: But really now thereās this rising conspiracy theory at the back of my mind that all female dominant, pro dominated protests are just women playing out fetishes. Now theyāre going to these ice.
Ice protests, antagonizing men saying, arrest me. Do it. I just saw some footage when I was watching another Aspen Gold stream on, on that was posted on YouTube later, where at one point it seemed like ice agents were pouring water on men. Women who were protesting may be blocking their way, like water bottle, emptying water bottles onto their faces, and the women were saying more water as this kind of resistance protest or something.
But now that I look at it from like a, a fetish perspective, I donāt know, man. What if women are just, what if women are using this as a way to exercise their resistance? [01:07:00] Fetishes and theyāre, Iām being dominated by strong man in a uniform and a mask. Itās kind of sexy. I I get it. You know, like I could see it.
No, I,
Malcolm Collins: I I Ice role play. You need to, thatās, thatās gonna be the next thing. Yeah.
Simone Collins: You gotta, I,
Malcolm Collins: itās, if I look on Amazon, am I
Simone Collins: gonna find ice costumes and that they have need to ice one star days? We need
Malcolm Collins: ai. Well,
Simone Collins: yeah. Today I made I made one where youāre Candace Owens, but all the conspiracy theories are true.
I made you wake up as Kaya right before the Kaya Please shock incident. And you have to figure out what youāre gonna do with your life. I made one where you are Charlie and you have to navigate the dystopian UK government. Perhaps saving Amelia. I donāt know. Weāll find out. Iām doing it. Iām having fun with them.
You know, we should, we should do an ice. I protest romance and NSFW. [01:08:00] Itās, itās gonna be perfect. But yeah, I, it, itās fun building out the, the scenarios and making them like that. I, I hope people enjoy the, the Candace Owens conspiracy theories a real one. I just started playing that after making it. I was like, whoa.
Because I put in in, in, in reality fabricator, when you make a scenario, youāre able to make the public summary and starting point for a game or an AI scenario or like narrative, but youāre also able to put in stuff that only the AI can see. And so itās really helpful when you wanna do things like Candace Owens, but all the conspiracy theories are real.
You just put in a detailed profile of Candace Owens and then a detailed summary of all of her conspiracy theories so that they thread into the narrative of. The game itself. And I find that actually really interesting because when I listen to Candace Owens talk, I find myself thinking, [01:09:00] how, how does she, how does this work?
How does it work with the Egyptian planes and the Jews and all these things? How do they fit together? How can this world be cohesive? And, and, and yeah, some people like her, Iām like, her brain is just cooked.
Malcolm Collins: Itās like
Simone Collins: she, well, no, but with reality fabricator, you can, through her eyes, play out the scenario and try to understand how things feel from her perspective.
And, and I, I didnāt realize that reality faab, reality fabricator would be so useful for me. Help
Malcolm Collins: me empathize with Candace Owen. Yeah. To be like, okay,
Simone Collins: letās just, letās just take her word for it. Okay. All of the conspiracy theories are real. And, and I can see what she says. She has. What am I seeing? What am I looking at?
What do I do? And so I didnāt realize that AI chatbots could also really help you build empathy or at least try to see something from someoneās perspective. But Iām very excited to create the NSFW Ice Agent Romance and a [01:10:00] scenario. It, it will hopefully rank well, but nothing will ever come close to, and I still have to play it through.
Thereās this one NSFW scenario that someone created on our fab called all the check boxes because Malcolm created this giant help you create your own narrative tool where you can check all the boxes or that you want for either an a, a safer work adventure scenario or a character that you chat with or a, a raunchy scenario. And so it includes all, like any fetish you could possibly imagine dominance versus submission roles tropes, et cetera. And someone just checked every single box just to see what would happen. I really wanna figure out. Itās dominant and itās submissive. Itās, itās BDSM and itās, itās, itās gentle.
Itās, I donāt know. I, I wanna, I need to, I need to see what itās like. Anyway we will, we will get to the show ācause Iām sorry, but we just, we have to talk [01:11:00] sometimes. And this is our time. All right.
Okay. You good? Oh, oh, we had a situation. Sorry. There is, thereās, wow. What, what did you do? You good buddy? Letās see whatās going. The double chinās kinda okay. Okay.
Okay.
Alright.
Sorry. He woke up at three 30 and was like, letās do it. We didnāt go back to sleep after that.
Speaker 3: Come down here to get people dressed. What is happening over here? What are you doing? Andy taught me, so his funny, his birthday party. How did Indy get out of her bed? Tim did it. Octavian? Yeah. Did you help Indy get out of her bed? Be nice.[01:12:00]
Speaker 4: They are so cute.
Drove us marching around. Had Indy gotten out of her, her cage? Yeah, they got her out in, got your, so they were marching around and doing what? They were just marching around yelling.
Speaker 6: Toasty. Andy wants to play toasty. Come on. Alright girl. Are you being silly, but I just having, what are you doing, Titan?
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe


