And yet, here we are. here we are. If there's one theme, I think, about this Ethereum ETF, it's curveball. I didn't know it was coming. And now I think the next thing that people are going back and forth on is how big of a deal is it? If you look at the current price of ETH, the current price would suggest actually not that big of a deal. I decline to believe that this is the fullness of this story. If you listen to either the ETF guys, James and Eric, they'll say the Ethereum ETF is the opening act coming after the headliner. If you talk to Sandy Kuhl, she'll say that the tech platform of Ethereum is very resonant with, uh, traditional investors. And so like there was actually going to be outsized demand for the Ethereum ETF. I'm wondering if you can kind of help us navigate like the sizing of demand and bullishness that, uh, outside traditional capital, uh, is going to go into the Ethereum ETF or if you have any sort of like indication about like investor appetite for this product. Yeah,

absolutely. There's a lot of demand for Ethereum and there's a lot of demand for accessing crypto in an ETF wrapper. So when you put those together, you should expect there to be significant demand for this ETF. A few reasons for that. From a starting point, professional investors love diversification. Literally day one, when you go to investing 101 class at business school, the first thing they drum into you is always diversify. So you have, you know, no one holds one stock, no one holds one bond. Most professional investors don't just want to hold one crypto asset. So I think you're going to have a large number of people who have exposure to Bitcoin ETFs, who now also want exposure to Ethereum ETFs. I did a Twitter poll yesterday and asking people who own the Bitcoin ETF if they were going to add ETH and about half of them said they would. And remember, that's $50 billion of assets. And so it's significant exposure. Bitwise, of course, sort of historically is built on a multi-asset framework. Our first product was an index-based product. We talk to investors about Ethereum all the time. And that leads to my second driver, which is financial professionals love Ethereum. And it's a very different story from Bitcoin. They see Bitcoin as digital gold, a store of wealth, a way to hedge against inflation. They see Ethereum as a cash flow driven technology play that is providing an internet 2.0 and a new way for finance to exist in the world. And they love all the real world applications. I think all you need to tell a financial advisor or professional investor about Ethereum is, you know, you could talk about stable coins, digital dollars on a blockchain. You could talk about BlackRock choosing to launch its first tokenized fund on Ethereum. You can talk about the growth of DeFi and cash flow. I think there's going to be significant demand for these. And the other piece of that that's really important and different from Bitcoin is there's no new supply. There's no new supply. Net supply is effectively zero. I know it's been up a little bit recently, but it's effectively zero over a long time frame. And what that means is that this new demand shock has to buy Ethereum from people who don't have to sell it. And that's just an extraordinarily bullish setup. So I think there will be real demand for these. When I talk to advisors, there's real interest. I can't wait to talk to people about Ethereum within the ETF context if we get to. And I think these will be a huge success. I'm

wondering what your methodology at Bitwise is for actually probing demand for these assets. I think it was pretty clear that there was definitely demand for Bitcoin. Now we were trying to probe about ETH. I've asked other people at different issuer agencies about their perception of demand for things beyond ETH, and I've gotten mixed answers here. But there seems to be no lack of data, actually, about whether there's demand for particular assets in Bitcoin, ETH, and down the line. I'm wondering if you can kind of just give us some insights about what it actually looks like to collect this data. Yeah.

I mean, the primary way we do it, we do 20,000 meetings with professional investors every year. Oh,

okay. That's a lot of data. So

that's a Bitwise representative, a member of our sales team or myself or another member of the research team having a one on one or one on 10 meeting with professional investment firms to talk about crypto. Some of those conversations are Bitcoin only, but most of them talk about crypto as an asset class and talk about the different use cases. And so, you know, it's not that we quantify each conversation, but I have a whole channel of sales reports talking about our conversations, and they often talk about the interest in Ethereum. So that's the primary way. We have other ways. You know, we do webinars focused on Bitcoin and focused on Ethereum, targeting the professional investor audience. They draw roughly the same crowd, which is surprising because Bitcoin is a much bigger asset and arguably much better known. But there is real interest in the Ethereum ecosystem. That's hundreds of advisors coming on these webinars to learn about the Ethereum ecosystem. And then, you know, we're doing surveys. We're likely to do a survey around ETH appetite. But the primary reason is those 20,000 meetings a year. And I can tell you from those meetings that there is significant interest in this space. So

Matt, to put you on the spot a little bit, interested in your take on flows, what flows will look like. And so Bitcoin, I think, surprised everybody. I don't know if you were surprised about this, but now we're up to something close to between $50 and $60 billion in assets in Bitcoin ETFs, which is frankly amazing when you consider that something like gold, which has been in existence for what, like 20 years from an ETF perspective, we're in striking distance of gold already. Gold is $100 billion. And so part of me wonders whether Bitcoin plus Ethereum ETF alone, whether that might be enough to flip in gold. And we might have bigger crypto ETFs combined than gold. But I'm wondering if you'd kind of translate this into flows right now. So we talked to James yesterday and he said, look, there's about $10 billion or so in the grayscale. Ethereum ETH E trust, that's going to convert over. So you get your first 10 billion there. But the question is, how big does this grow? And of course, let's just take static ETH prices because ETH could double or triple overnight, which confounds the analysis. But imagine it's like trading around where it's trading right now in the mid 3000s to 4000 amount. Do you think we get 15 billion, 20 billion, 30 billion? Like, how big is this? Or maybe if you want to do a comparator of like as a percentage of Bitcoin. Anyway, what do you think about this? Like put some concrete numbers around predictions if you can. Great.

Yeah. So to add additional piece of context, the Bitcoin ETFs have had net flows of about 12 or $13 billion. So those net flows add to the GBTC assets and you sum up to those numbers that you have. That is off the charts for ETFs. It is 2 or 3x the next most successful ETF of all time.

This is like the Taylor Swift Airess

tour of ETFs. Yes. That's completely right.

Hey, Ryan, do you have any dollars? I

do, David. Why do you ask? Yeah, no, that's right. But like a billion dollars is a big number in terms of ETFs. I don't think Ethereum ETFs will match Bitcoin ETFs, but I do think it will be measured in terms of many billions of dollars. So I think the $10 billion will convert. Some of that will be people selling out. And so we'll have to have people catching up to buy it. But then, could we get $5 additional billion into Ethereum ETFs by the end of the year? I certainly think that's possible. Could there be significantly more in future years? I definitely think that's possible. Will it be enough to drive Ethereum to do all-time highs? I definitely think that's possible as well. So looking out, if Bitcoin ETFs did 13 billion or 12 billion in their first four months, let's say, I think Ethereum ETFs will do less than half of that, but more than a quarter of that. And that's going to be pretty significant, right? Remember, that's against a market with no net new supply. So I think there is real demand.