Aesthetics, Avant-Garde Roots, and Rejection of Modern Art

In this episode, Malcolm & Simone Collins explore the bizarre, contradictory, and extremely influential philosophy of Julius Evola — the Italian thinker often called the “super-fascist” who criticized the Nazis for being too materialistic and not racist/spiritual enough.

We cover:

* Spiritual racism & soul hierarchies (yes, really)

* Why he hated Nazis, democracy, modernity, Christianity, and Jews

* Magical idealism, riding the tiger, Kali Yuga & return to a primordial golden age

* Tantric sex metaphysics, non-ejaculatory rituals, graveyard meditation, and “metaphysics of sex”

* The strange influence on Bronze Age Pervert / BAP, new right vitalism, and even some Nick Fuentes-adjacent ideas

* Why we consider spiritual/mystical “vitalism” one of the most dangerous and self-defeating paths a person can take

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about the philosophical ideas of a man who hated the Nazis because he thought they were too woke and weren’t nearly racist enough for his standards. This is a man called Julius Ola. So, so actually he, he calls himself a super fascist.

He, he he didn’t actually hate the, he, he criticized him over that, but he thought that what they were doing broadly aligned with his ideology, which was a very interesting world perspective. And I, I wanted to talk about it because I was looking at and trying to understand where some of the new Vitalistic philosophies got their world framing from.

For example, the philosophy of BAP or Bronze h pervert, who, who by the way, has explicitly said to his followers, don’t read this guy directly. It’s all philosophical. Who what is it? Like mystical hoodoo? But he’ll occasionally read things that this guy has, has, has written as like a, a sort of [00:01:00] vibing.

And when you, when you see this guy’s idea, you’ll be like, oh, I can see where the framework presented by a Bronze Age pervert, or by a man’s world or something like that, may have come in part from this guy’s ideology. He was around during the period of World War ii, so you understand he was in Italy.

He’s an Italian. I know, I know. Terrible. Is he still alive? He was alive until the 1970s. Okay. But he’s not, he’s

Simone Collins: not an actively publishing substack author. He, he’s an an actual philosopher who wrote stuff in, born

Malcolm Collins: in the 18 hundreds. Yes. Pre-internet. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. So, like, philosopher, philosopher, guy.

And his ideas. If, if you strip out the, the racism and everything like that of his ideas, ‘cause that’s, there’s a lot of racism. It, it was interesting, he believed that different ethnic groups had different qualities. Like there was like a hierarchy of soul quality between ethnic [00:02:00] groups, but that you could work so that you, your goal was to always improve your soul quality.

Right? Like, like how we believe a person’s life’s goal is.

Simone Collins: So he wasn’t an HBD dude, he was a like soul. Like metaphysically. Different groups were different.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That’s why he didn’t like the Nazis, because he said they, so that was his big disagreement with him. He was like, well, you know, they’re, they’re being too like materialistic.

Oh my God.

Simone Collins: Like, don’t look at the genetics. You have to, you have to look at their auras. I’m so what he thought,

Malcolm Collins: he thought that you could like, work out your soul enough. He’s like a soul Jim. What,

Simone Collins: on what grounds was he evaluating their souls? We,

Malcolm Collins: we will talk about it, but he thought that you could work it out enough that you could get your soul into like another ethnic group of souls.

So like, you, you could have an Aryan soul even if you weren’t Aryan and if you were Aryan, but like, you were too materialistic. That’s kind of Hindu, right?

Simone Collins: [00:03:00] I mean, like, I guess you could die and be reincarnated. Reincarnated in a different level. Oh

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah. He was heavily influenced by Buddhist theology.

Okay. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Okay. His whole world perspective was much clo more closely tied to Buddhism than it was to Christianity. Wow. Although, although he, what he would’ve called himself is not Christian or Buddhist, he believed he was trying to revitalize the pagan world of the ancient Greeks and Romans.

And he thought that that was like the correct way to practice religion. But you, you can get an idea of like where that fits with something like BA and all the Greek and Roman statues and everything like that. Right.

Simone Collins: I am so intrigued now because this is already so unhinged. I mean, it’s a Hindu, but make it idolize ancient Greece and make it racist and all these insane things. The, the Nazis got it wrong because they weren’t looking at [00:04:00] souls.

Malcolm Collins: They weren’t looking at souls. They were, they were just, they were being too woke about this whole thing.

Simone Collins: It’s so, it’s so weirdly insulting. Like I, I, I, I I, I don’t even know where to start wrapping my head around this. Okay. Okay. I, I mean, I guess it’s kind of like the, the whole Mormon thing of like, well, if you were, until they decided that they were wrong about this, like, well, if you’re born black, that means, you know, if you’re not white and delight some, you, you did something wrong.

Well, I can’t remember. That was so, something along those lines. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, well, it means your soul I think it was that you didn’t actively join Jesus. When Satan revolted against Jesus in sort of pre-life when they had the big soul battle. Oh. And so, they had the soul battle and the souls that join in Jesus.

They are born as white people, and the souls that were neutral in the battle are the ones that became dark skinned people.

Simone Collins: The, the draft dodgers. Oh, dare you. Yes. Yeah. So it is like that, I guess kind of, but not, it’s [00:05:00] much more Hindu sounding. This is just so intriguing.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So I’ll first do an overview of his philosophy.

Then we’ll go into a little bit of his writings, and then we’ll go into some like interesting, unique points of it.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So his philosophy is often termed magical idealism or transcendental realism, and it posits a dualistic ontology, a natural material world contrasted with a primordial eternal being, forming a hierarchical chain from the divine to the profane.

He rejected discussive knowledge in favor of spur rational intuition, viewing the self as capable of creating reality and achieving unity with the absolute through self divination, essentially constructing divinity rather than submitting to a personal God. Okay, this is

Simone Collins: like the Quaker kind of thing, where like, if I feel it, then it’s real.

Am I reading that right?

Malcolm Collins: Not exactly. So Quaker still believed that there’s like an external God to them that’s talking to them. He believed that you built God sort of [00:06:00] through honing your internal metaphysical powers or spirit. So it’s the power

Simone Collins: of wishy thinking.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. The power of, we should think now if you, if you look at it from our perspectives, this is interesting ‘cause it has some parallels to our beliefs where we also believe that God is something that is built but we believe he’s built through a materialistic process.

Mm-hmm. Self-improvement, improvement of humanity, intergenerational improvement. Hmm. Whereas he sees it God as being built by a, a, a single generation’s cultivation of the soul. So like your, your individual cultivation of the soul was in yourself. And he believed that we were currently living in Kali Yuga.

So you can see already like heavily influenced by Hindu ideology there. So it was also Hindu I should note. Ola viewed history as a evolution or decline through four ages was the current Kaga dark ages marked by chaos vice and the [00:07:00] triumphs of the masses over the elites.

He rejected the linear progress or Darwinian evolution as regressive miss advocating a return to a primordial golden age through spiritual renewal epigenesis. So,

Simone Collins: okay, so there, there’s the, oh, pa paleogene. So that’s the bap thing. That’s, that’s maybe where we’re like, yeah. This revival of some idealized ancient age.

Malcolm Collins: Well, he thought that like society should be structured in a way where you have the people with the, the better souls. They’re like the elite souls. Mm-hmm. Ruling over the naturally and obviously inferior general population. And, and what he hated about the modern world sort of democracy and all of that.

Is that the, the inferior the masses had control over the superior, the, the leadership cast.

Right?

And why this is interesting to me is you can see this very philosophical belief mirrored in say somebody [00:08:00] like Nick FO’s ideology, right? That, that there is, there is profanity in the concept that the masses would have control over.

You know, like, like very critical of democracy more broadly now, we, we are, we are fairly critical of democracy ourselves. And we always point out that the, the reason you have democracy, like the point of democracy is not to source the opinion of the masses. It’s to put competent people in positions of power and remove them when they are abusing those positions of power.

Right? That’s, that’s the core reason you need a democratic system. I mean, ideally you would just have a society that chose whoever was the, the, the smartest and most altruistic and most levelheaded and at the best me metaphysical understanding of reality and put them in a position of power. Right. And we just think that, that right now, democracy is not, it’s, it’s not good at doing that.

But there’s few other better systems right now, other than the ones that we’ve outlined, but a lot of the ones that the people like him want to see in power is they’re just like. [00:09:00] Naturally, somehow the people with the better souls are gonna be born into these positions. Like if you put if, if you concentrated power in a few individuals and then they started surrounding themselves with cronies and stuff like that, which they often sort of have to do.

Yeah. Because if, if they’re not, you know. Giving the corruption to the cronies and the cronies use the power they have to overthrow them, right? And so then they start surrounding themselves with incompetent people so that they have less of a possibility of overthrowing them. And so somebody else can’t overthrow them as easily.

And then you get all the, the corruption and everything like that, that leads to the failed state, which you have in a situation like Iran, right? Like that’s, that’s how you get that even if you are sorting for the most spiritual was in your community, which is what they were when they were setting up the ayatollah.

And the the council that served under him was in Iran. Like these were considered the most devout people which we, we discussed yesterday is, is what like an ideology of like Nick Fuentes would want to do in society but just was a different. Religion that still corrupts incredibly quickly and like spirals out of control incredibly quickly.

And then you get a lot of government [00:10:00] graft and we’ve pointed out like Iran’s water situation is caused by the corruption that happened because of the way this was structured. Mm-hmm. You always get lots of corruption when you centralize power in this way. Mm-hmm. Now this might be something that can be addressed with ai, but like, that’s why that’s generally a bad idea.

But I, I, I do agree that there is something profane. About a society in which the masses have control of, or influence over people who well, I wouldn’t say they have better souls or anything like that because that’s not a concept that we believe in. You could look at our track series on this, right?

We would say that there, there, there are people who seem to patently, you know, work harder on defining their world. Frameworks or metaphysical frameworks seem to have a better work ethic, seem to be more agentic. And that these individuals, if they had more power in society, would, would likely make society a better place.

But to continue here, he believed in a spiritual ra racist hierarchy. He divided the

Simone Collins: [00:11:00] spiritual racism. I, I do, I I’m delighted to be introduced to this as a new concept. The concept of spiritual racism.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So the, the interesting thing about him is so you might think. Oh, well, you know, he is looking at like the, the, the Nazis and he’s saying, well, you know, you just think it’s the body and I think it’s the soul.

No, no, no. He thought everyone was three things and the body was the least important.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The other two were the soul and the spirit. And the spirit was the most important. Wait, so the

Simone Collins: soul, the soul and the spirit are separate things. How are, how are they separate in this

Malcolm Collins: field? I think the so is sentient, but I can look this up right now.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. I’m also curious if you have found in your research of him some explanation as to how, how he could tell WW if someone had a good soul and a not good soul, if that makes sense. Right. Like, I mean the, the, the, the materialistic racist, right. They could just look at someone and, and [00:12:00] fairly quickly know, ah, I like this person, or I don’t like this person, but this guy’s walking down the street.

He can’t just look at someone and be like, Hmm. Bad soul. Good soul. Like how do you even be a soul racist when you, you can’t unless you like read auras and auras were a reflection of people’s soul and could see them somehow, or like he could Yeah. I, I want to understand this.

Malcolm Collins: Well,

he really hated materialism or focused on like the material world. Okay. And as such, he saw anything that was tied to that, either like economic materialism or science or other forms of, of, of that type of materialistic exploration of reality. Uhhuh as, inherently corrupting. So he’d hate us and he really didn’t like the Jews either.

So he saw that as like a a, an example of, of badness. Right. Another thing, note about him, he died without kids as people like this always do. [00:13:00] Yeah. We point out that when you get into mysticism it, it begins to break down a lot of other systems. And you typically don’t achieve what actually matters in life.

Like he was trying to vitalism Max in a way, but in this weird ous way that would’ve never worked.

Simone Collins: I, I fail to see the vitalism.

Malcolm Collins: We’ll, we’ll get to that. I mean, what is

Simone Collins: vitalism if you don’t produce anything materially,

Malcolm Collins: well, he called life as like writing the tiger. Well, that’s the thing, and this is why we, we, I, I, I complain about mysticism and, and this focus on like the soul and everything like that so much is because it allows you to say.

Well, I’m improving this, this thing that like no third party can you know, evaluate. Mm-hmm. Or make a judgment on. Mm-hmm. And because no third party can make a judgment on the thing that he’s building of himself you know, he can just always be like, oh yeah, I might be, which, which he became a permit who lived alone and ne didn’t like go outside much or talk to outsiders.

But he was working on his spirit. Right. You know, a very

Simone Collins: vitalistic,

Malcolm Collins: it allows you to, well, he’d say, I’m spending all day. [00:14:00] He called it writing the tiger, like living Yes. Modernity in this, this horrible world. He at one point, by the way, had a a trit was a famous feminist in Italy, which I think is funny.

But I’ll get to his views on sex because that was one of the things I, I wanted to hear. Yeah,

Simone Collins: let’s do,

Malcolm Collins: okay. So he wrote a book called The Metaphysics of Sex also called Aris in the Mysteries of Love. Where he views sex as a metaphysical force beyond biology, reproduction, or mere pleasure, he rejects evolutionary or veridian explorations, seeing arrows as a past to unity and transcendence.

Overcoming ego boundaries through ecstatic intoxication. Sex can be profane, carnal and instinctual or sacred ritualistic. Leading to spiritual ecstasy. No. Going from Tarra, Taoism, no. And mis like the hermaphrodite? No. He describe, he describes a magnetism of love as an inexplicable hyper aesthetic state of independent of logic and morality, potentially activating cosmic energies.[00:15:00]

Ebola discusses practices like tantric SEC for transmutation, EG controlling ejaculation Oh no, but world of the dangers when not grounded in discipline. He critiques modernity for reducing sex to consumption or sentiment, advocating its elevation to a mystery, aligning with traditional hierarchies including gender polarities, male as active and female as passive.

Gayness and other forms are addressed. Ambivalently sometimes as passed to unity, but often within his hierarchical framework.

Simone Collins: I can’t, I don’t have. The range necessary in my eye. Sockets to roll my eyes. Enough for what you just recounted to me. I am. I am disgusted by, I think what’s the most insulting is that he put a lot of thought into something that absolutely means nothing.

There is no such thing as love as he believes in it. There is no such this, this transport. He is literally just [00:16:00] deluding himself into thinking he did something with his life and he did nothing with his life, aside from apparently potentially influence a couple of. I mean, I don’t know. What’s the legacy that BAP is gonna leave behind?

I, I don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: We’ll get to that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, because

Malcolm Collins: I, well, I mean, I don’t think it’s just bap, I think as people have looked for vitalism, this is one of the sort of types of vitalism they’ve looked for. When you look for, and, and vitalism

Simone Collins: is America’s manifest destiny. Vital vitalism is, is is materialism incarnate.

I, I can’t understand that, that Yeah, you, you’ve kind of blown my mind that someone could be seen as vitalistic and not materialistic. Well,

Malcolm Collins: there’s a form and this, this is why we’re discussing this guy. Okay. I think he represents a perfect inversion of what we would want to see realized in the world.

Yeah. Because his vitalism is entirely tied to the concept of the, the, the what’s the word I’m looking for here? The mystical stuff is

Simone Collins: not real and we believe in [00:17:00] Yeah. You can’t

Malcolm Collins: Objectively get any judgment on Right. It’s non predictive of reality.

Mm-hmm. And as such, and we, we always warn about the dangers of mysticism whenever we go on. Mm-hmm. We haven’t done our religious stuff in a while, but like it is, it is so toxic. And I think some people, when they look for vitalism, they are drawn to looking for it in mysticism. And, and you know, we see, we see people going down this, an example of a friend of ours who’s going down this path is Ruby Art.

And I think that, look, I think he bounced back from that.

Simone Collins: Hasn’t he bounced back from that?

Malcolm Collins: I haven’t just, I still think that mysticism is a key part of his world framework. And I think that, that we need to look at what ends up happening to you in life. If you try to draw vitality through mysticism or magic or the supernatural or other forms of.

What I would see negative, negative things. In the past we would’ve said this was a witch or a, you know, bad, but in, in the modern times,

Simone Collins: no, he’s not even a witch. I wish he were a witch, but witches. [00:18:00] Make spells and hex people and kill people and, and cure people. They do stuff materialistically, God bless witches compared to him.

He can’t even, all he can do is manage tantric sex with a feminist. Are you kidding me?

Malcolm Collins: I’m just, I do you have no idea how much that discussed us, this idea that he thought that you were like, getting anything look and, and the idea that he’s like, well, there’s like carnal sex and then there’s ritualistic sex.

What is, what is a bigger waste of time? The only version of sex we say is

Simone Collins: not a sin is, is proative sex. Just period. And, and it, we have non-creative sex. We get that like it’s fine, but it’s also a sin. And he, he can’t even manage. Just like enjoying carnal sex. He is like, no, I have to, I have to pretend that it’s something more.

I just kind of, probably just to satisfy himself to think that he’s some kind of intellectual and he, he tricked enough people, apparently. Again, [00:19:00] Simone, and this is important. This is actually who paid for this man. How, how did, how was he allowed to do this?

Malcolm Collins: So suppose that you have a belief in the, the mysticism, like the, the core point is sort of, acculturating the mystical forces was in yourself, right?

Like the, the, the soul, the spirit, everything like that, right? All of the things that you cannot subjectively judge, touch, look at the development of. Mm-hmm. And now you need to make judgements about something like, is sex bad? Right? And so you look at it and your internal psychology is gonna be heavily influenced by your biology that wants you to have sex, right?

And so you allow that to corrupt you because you have no subjective way of knowing whether sex is bad or good in, in your framework because your entire framework is based off of mysticism and feels. So, you of course say, well, yeah, of course it feels good to me and I’m able to do it in a. In a way that, that, that follows some other parts of my tradition like that is ritualistic [00:20:00] and, and disciplined in some way.

So it’s like good in elevating. I mean, then you’re, you’re able to use that, which I’m sure he did, to try to get people to sleep with him, right? Like, that’s, that’s what these people always do. Right. But I wanna go to your earlier question about the difference between the soul and the spirit. Yes, please.

Okay. So he often translates soul as psyche or mind. It encompasses emotions, instincts, character, temperament, subjective experiences, and psychological patterns. VE only described it as the subtle body or formative forces between purely physical and purely spiritual. It is contingent, changeable and tight to individual personality, cultural influences, and even environmental factors.

There’s a materialistic

Simone Collins: basis for all of these things, as I imagine he knew.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then the spirit, as he saw he, this was the highest, it was super rational, transcendent principle. It is eternal, unchanging, and linked to the divine or metaphysical order. Ebola saw it as virile solar active element opposed, as opposed to lunar the passive soul.[00:21:00]

You can see a lot of mysticism in the sky. It represents the capacity for transcendence, heroic elevation aesthetic discipline and alignment with eternal truths in racial doctrine. The races, spirit, transcendental and metaphysical. The defense unchanging essence that connects the primordial miss symbols to higher orders.

And then I asked about what, what was this hypers static state that he talked about independent of logical morality. And this is from his metaphysics of the sex. And it refers to an intensified, heightened sensory or a static condition, a state of extremely sensitive intoxication or magnetic, quote unquote attraction that transcends the ordinary person.

It’s like a feverish, overwhelmingly erotic experience where the boundaries of self dissolve. And he saw this as independent of logical morality meaning that the state arises spontaneously and in ably without rational justification or ethical constraints. It’s not governed by logic or moral rules.

He describes it as the magnetism of love. So basically just like whatever I do when I really [00:22:00] want to have sex, like when I’m really horny and in the throes of it, is like definitively good. And, and now anyone who knows our wider framework would know how repellent we would find an idea like this, right?

Like this is clearly, he wants to engage in something and so he’s doing it. He’s, he is, he is defining it as good. Right. Rather than admitting that he is fallen like everyone else, like we would say and people should know when we say like, non-right, productive sex is sinful. We mean it’s sinful in the same way as masturbation is sinful or playing video games is sinful.

Mm-hmm. Or reading books is sinful. They don’t anything that’s

Simone Collins: not actively contributing to your objective function, whatever that may be. I mean, our religious framework holds that. The thing of inherent value is promoting future human flourishing and creating eventually what becomes God. But you can do you basically anything that doesn’t contribute to that is sinful.

So. If your, if your objective function is to serve [00:23:00] God, anytime you’re not serving God, you’re sinning. If your objective function is to maximize happiness in your life, anytime you’re not investing in actively maximizing true happiness, you’re messing up, which could even include doing things that on the face seem hed sonically indulgent because you’re not actually being made happy by them.

Like just scrolling on your phone. You’re not actually happy typically when you’re doing that. So you would be sinning by doing that, even if your objective function was happiness. Anyway, that, that’s where we stand on that. Just to clarify

Malcolm Collins: and, and I, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll note here the Bible does like this is not an anti-biblical perspective that specifically Romans 1423, but whoever has doubt is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith. And everything that does not come from faith is sin or everything that is not for God is sin.

And so if you’re, if you’re not doing it in the service of God, it is sinful. And so the question is, is what is in the service of God? And is tantric sex in the service of God? I think not. But [00:24:00] again, this guy really hated Christian, so don’t worry about it. That was not something he was interested in aligning with.

So he was heavily influenced by tantra, Buddhism and Hermeticism. Valles saw alchemy yoga and the left hand paths, rituals involving violence and sexuality as a pass towards transcendence. Sexuality was a tool for harnessing dark powers, not mere pleasure in aiming for a godman status.

Simone Collins: God, man.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I wanna hear about the violent thing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Violence is too materialistic for this guy. I don’t know. How could he have any relation to violence?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think the things he wanted to do or that felt like manly to him, I were, were things that he was promoting. Okay. Anyway, so rejection of Christianity and modernity.

He like Nietzsche or was it Nie? You did this Anyway, he rejected and dismissed Christianity as slave morality promoting proletarian egalitarianism. And he favored pre-Christian paganism. He saw modernity’s forces of democracy, capitalism, and [00:25:00] feminism as degenerative. And he countered by inner heroic discipline and detachment.

Now let’s see. What, what, what were your, his thoughts on, on violence? ‘cause I find that interesting. Okay, so he had something called the, the Pancha Mara or the five s or Forbidden things. So, this is the core ritual framework of the left hand tantra involving five elements starting with M in Sanscript.

I. And so it’s stuff like alcohol, meat, fish, grains, sexual union. So, these performed in secret often at night in cremation grounds or secret rights to amplify transgressive power. Ebola stressed that the goal was not for pleasure, but using these acts as poisons. That through discipline became nectar, an alchemical reversal.

So he believed in like that Jewish guy who we’ve gone over as like the actual antichrist, who I do think is the actual antichrist, I forgot his name. The the, the guys who the Jews thought was the [00:26:00] Messiah and converted to Islam

Simone Collins: name was Ball or something.

Malcolm Collins: I wanna say Ellie Eer, Ben Dove.

. B TA was who I was thinking of.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, he had this idea that you could like, because we’re living in the Messianic age all of the rules are inverted. And so you would do the things that the Bible said not to do.

And they became now good. And the things that the Bible said to do became bad. And you can see why, if you go to our, to our tract on him, why we would say he’s literally an antichrist. He literally did everything Christ did. In absolute inversion you know, like, born wealthy an academic very, very well respected, had a lot of followers, was well loved within his life crowned himself with a real crown instead of a crown of swords.

You know, it’s a fun little inversion there, but I don’t wanna get too far on him right now because I, I, I find him to be just a fascinating figure. But this seems to be the same thing. So he thought that you would take in negative things and then sort of like, if you did it in a, in a profane [00:27:00] enough way, these negative things would become positive things.

And this seems that you’re wondering about like, the type of mysticism that would have hit the H man and he would’ve believed this is the type of stuff he would’ve believed. This is, this is his world. These were his influencers. Okay. So. What did he think of sexuality? Ebola devoted significant attention to this viewing masina as a key to transcendence in left hand rituals.

It could involve prolonged non ejaculatory union it to circulate sexual energy upwards through the chakras. Oh, he described techniques like aandra’s postures, pero breast control, and visualization that transform lust into divine ecstasy. He differentiated profane sex modern, sentimental, or animalistic from sacred arrows where the woman embodies Akita as the act dissolves individuality, however, critique feminism and equality insisting on traditional gender roles for polarity to work [00:28:00] without initiation.

Although he said that without initiation, this led to demonic possession and psychic vampirism.

Simone Collins: No, I never have. I thought of demonic possession or psychic vampirism so positively in my life. Anything.

Malcolm Collins: No, he didn’t

Simone Collins: think of it positive. It distances me from that, which he describes as good. He said, no,

Malcolm Collins: this is, this is what mystics always do.

They’re like, because I always point out like how mysticism corrupts people’s minds and anyone who’s a sane person and looks around knows that the mystics look like dirty, crazy people that can barely hold their lives together. Right? Like everybody knows it. They look like meth addicts of religion, right?

Simone Collins: The myth addicts of religion. So true. And

Malcolm Collins: so what people will say is they’ll be like, well, you have to do it with like a higher mind, which I have, of course. Right. You know, so I am able to engage with it without corruption, right. And it’s like, I bet, I bet you do. I bet you engaged with it without corruption.

So what was I, what was I gonna say about mysticism? Yeah. So. Well, this, this actually matters a lot because this, [00:29:00] this is part of the problem is it’s this sort of like internal arrogance, right? That you can engage with things in a way that other people can’t. And I also wanted to talk here a bit about, because somebody asked us our views on this in one of the comments once.

So it’s worth talking a bit about is what we thought of semen retention. Because, you know, in some conservative circles downstream of works like this, this has picked up steam again. And I think it is this Oh, so was he

Simone Collins: one of the guys who popularized this concept?

Malcolm Collins: No, I don’t think so.

Simone Collins: I, yeah, no, no.

There’s like such a big precedent, like just that whole movement in the early 19 hundreds in the United States whereby people were told that they would go blind if they masturbated. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Basically our thoughts is you should live whatever sexual lifestyle is attainable to you that will minimize the amount of time and effort you put towards erotic endeavors.

Yeah. And, and, and, and if that involves sex with your partner or masturbation [00:30:00] or anything like that, do it. But if, if you can do that through just sheer, you know, semen retention or whatever then do it that way. Right? Like, it’s a bit like saying, you know, I, I, if I never played video games at all, like, would I get more distracted on other things and stuff like that?

I think that with, with a lot of things mm-hmm. There are some people who can just completely raw dog it and that they’ll, they’ll be efficient. And then there’s other people where if they attempted something like that, they’d beaking about sex all the time. And that’s not, productive way to live your life, right?

Mm-hmm. So it, it’s what’s, what’s the productive way to engage with this stuff?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Sometimes attempting to quit something will make you even more obsessed with it, and then you spend more time on that thing than you would have if you just indulged in moderation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like when you were anorexic, you tell me you used to, all I ever

Simone Collins: thought of was food.

I mean, when you’re start, because I mean, I did the thing, I was very effective. I was actually starving. So actually all I could think of was food. ‘cause I was dying. Yeah. And you kind of do that when you’re starving and I mean Sure. When you were at that camp and you were [00:31:00] starving, eating like moss and stuff.

Oh yeah. I thought about food constantly. Yeah. All the time. Yeah. And I, I imagine, I, I don’t know what it’s like for people who have a high sex drive and choose not to masturbate, but I could imagine that it could be like that. I don’t know. But I could. It could be. And so really, like, are you more effective now spending all your mental capacity, trying not to do that?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But again, this, this could also change between populations. Like it might be easier for Mormons to do it because they’ve had this evolutionary pressure on them for so long. Well, it depends. And,

Simone Collins: You can’t just say that it causes ego depletion, for example, because we’ve seen in studies that ego depletion comes down to context.

There are some cultural context in which people believe that ego depletion isn’t. It’s, it’s the opposite. Like if you’ve had a hard day where you’ve had to make a lot of decisions, now is a really great time to make a tough decision ‘cause you’ve been warmed up. It’s like warming up, like, okay, I’m on a roll now.

Let’s do more hard things. Whereas in [00:32:00] most Western cultures, the concept of eco depletion is, oh, well I just had to make a lot of hard decisions today. Now I’ll only make bad decisions ‘cause I spent all my responsibility tokens. So a lot of it comes down to context too. And I could see maybe a no fab context in which people are like, well now because I abstain from this and that I can be disciplined with all these other things as well.

And so I agree that there’s nuance here. I just think that people need to be aware of how things are playing out with them internally. And, Hey, is this producing a good outcome? No. Well then let’s change tack.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And to, to the, the question of do I think you like build spiritual powers by semen retention?

No, absolutely not. That’s insane.

Simone Collins: Because there are no spiritual powers. You dofu. I can’t. I’m so annoyed. Okay. I’m glad he’s dead. Keep going. No,

Malcolm Collins: no. I mean, our, our, yeah, you’re not like, the racism stuff is terrible. You just hate the sex stuff.

Simone Collins: No, he [00:33:00] like do racism. Right. I mean, do, if you’re gonna be ra like he can’t even racism, right.

That, that’s my problem. He can’t do anything. Right.

Malcolm Collins: So the the, the, no, and I point out it’s not that you, if, if there are spiritual powers, our wider belief, if there are spiritual powers, they’re universally negative. Like, not things you should be messing around with, not things you should be playing with.

Just do, do not mess with them.

Simone Collins: Not even that. I, I feel like if there are spiritual powers, then you’re describing what people have always described as as, as magic or god’s work, which is really just science or physics or whatever that we don’t understand yet. Basically any technology or science that we don’t understand yet, we, we call magic.

So it’s just something I have to materialistically think about. No, I agree. I mean, no, it’s not material. No. Well, no, then you’re exists. It doesn’t exist or I haven’t discovered or wrapped my head around it yet. And either way it is going to be materialistic.

Malcolm Collins: Right. So what she’s saying, and I think it’s a a, a very good point, is that if [00:34:00] we discover magic in the future that, you know, we would build science around that magic, right?

Yes. Like we would have, we would understand the rules of it, how it worked, and we’d utilize and integrate it with our daily lives. And so if there is a, a, any sort of mystical plane that people are accessing that mystical plane is part of our reality and just part of science. And if there is special abilities or powers that people are able to access through that plane, that means there’s likely some sort of structural system within that plane that may be super advanced science or something like that.

But the point I was making wasn’t that point, Simone, it’s that. At least from what I have seen people who attempt to access anything like that plane always end up mentally corrupted. And so what I’m saying is that if it exists, if they are encountering the science of magic on the other side of, of the veil of reality it is a corrupting force for humanity rather than an uplifting force for humanity.

That’s why I’m usually kind of like almost [00:35:00] autistic is I’m just being constantly.

Why? Because lower entities will come in and violate your free will. They know. All your , they see right through you. They will not manipulate your free will unless you ask them in. I have dude, do not say that I’m gonna get killed. I’ve a hundred percent communicated with something. I’m not judging anybody.

I’m just saying, okay, be careful. The question is whether that something was actually in my imagination or in my mind, or that something was something that takes place in another dimension. Once you open that gate, it’s all bad. They have, so why is it all bad? Why? Why can’t you experience that interdimensional?

being and learn something from it, and be a better person when you come out of it. Because, because every time it gets control, it starts murdering everybody. They wind up killing everybody later. In every case. And it always starts beautiful. It always starts great. Problem is, some of it makes sense. That’s where the psychosis comes in.

Whoa. It’s going to create a giant societal crisis where most of the people are already going to get killed. Because an evil force wants conflict. So I’m saying no, no, no. It’s [00:36:00] all chaos. Stop it. This is the nature of the beast.

Malcolm Collins: but anyway, to continue here, I wanted to talk about violence. Violence in left hand tantra as per Ebola, is more symbolic or ritualistic than literal physical harm to others.

It ties into the quote unquote fierce aspects of deities like kli, who represent destruction and illusions, animal sacrifice, Bali, some tantric texts describe offering animals eeg goats in rituals, symbolizing the sacrifice of one’s lower self. Ebola mentioned this as a way to confront death and in permanence, but downplayed it as secondary to inner work warning against cruelty without metaphysical purpose.

Oh, interesting. So you can do it if you have metaphysical purpose. He’s like, no, don’t treat it as a, a shortcut. Symbolic violence or aesthetic extremes. Practices like meditating in graveyards. Oh, this guy was so edgy. Sit sitting. You alluded

Simone Collins: to earlier, something about tantric sex in graveyards. Yes.

Sitting on

Malcolm Collins: corpses was one of his called Shava. Well, the graveyards were a [00:37:00] very

Simone Collins: a, a, a common first date or second date location for you.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, that was back when, in the day when you’re doing spicy and I goth girls and come on. You know me. You know my type IDI liked my Amelia’s. Okay. The conservative goth girl was the choker from the video game.

I’m gonna make her one of the things on the Reddit.

Simone Collins: She was So your

Malcolm Collins: type. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, God. This what I’m saying, this guy’s just too gothy. I can’t imagine like a 30-year-old guy like going to a graveyard to sit on bodies. It’s like meditation or self mortification to break attachments.

Avara linked this to his ideas of heroism, quote unquote writing the tiger and facing chaos without being consumed. But it sounds like you were extremely consumed if there was like a chaos person and he is like, I’m not sure.

Have I been consumed by the forces of the chaos gods? I’d be like, you, you, you are literally like chanting with like a, a pentagram inscribed on your forehead bleeding.

Like I’m, I’m pretty sure [00:38:00] you’re all the way there. But. Let’s, let’s, let’s I wanted to go back to the broader worldview. So his worldview was profoundly anti-modern envisioning. The cosmos is divided between the solar masculine and the lunar feminine. The, the masculine was hierarchy and transcendence, which is good, and the feminine, which was bad with chaos egalitarianism and material materialism.

Humanity’s purpose is upward self-transcendence towards the quote unquote absolute individual. Strong, purposeful, and free from cultural and material bonds achieved through heredity which is interesting. Heredity is a big part of how this is achieved initiation and heroic action. So, key elements were anti egalitarianism and, and a hierarchical society.

He saw a hierarchy as. Cosmic and intrinsically good manifesting in, in, in physical, racial and social forms, but rooted in spirituality society. Okay. So

Simone Collins: when he walked down the street, he was [00:39:00] judging people’s souls because he believed that their souls were manifested in physical traits.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So like, things he saw as bad were like democracy, mass rules, we’ve talked about liberalism or individualism and socialism slash equality.

Mm-hmm.

We’re, we, instead he favored organic empires and monarchies. So again, you can see how this ideology influences some of like nick fo Yeah. There’s,

Simone Collins: there’s some there. Yeah. This kind of feeling shows up in Bronze Age mindset, for example. Yes. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: In terms of misogyny and gender roles, he saw women as inferior, independent on men, suited only to be mothers or lovers.

Feminism was a renunciation of femininity and true order. And why did he bonk one? Because he has no self-control. I’m sure. Each one one’s probably trying to convert the other, you know? Mm-hmm. And true order required patriarchal subjugation masculinity meant hyper virile war ideas. He was incredibly anti-Semitic.

He saw, he thought that Jews symbolized decadent modernity, [00:40:00] materialism and democracy. Mm-hmm. Justifying violence. He supported imperialism, paganism and a European imperium as a hierarchical renewal, viewing the US as epitomizing chaos. And I keep in mind when we look at our thinkers from well before this time period, they really love the us like Wyn would Reed, we have a do a series where I like read some of the martyrdom of man on, substack fans who are paying or whatever, like for Patreon. And he was obsessed with America. He thought America was the greatest place on earth. And a model for how all other countries should structure their societies.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. And you, you literally cite him as basically another form of profit in, in our techno puritan materials.

Yeah. And even Kurt Metzger

Malcolm Collins: although he said he was a eugenics, which is just wrong, he believed in genetics, but he wasn’t a eugenics.

Simone Collins: Well,

Malcolm Collins: by

Simone Collins: many people’s definition, if you believe in genetics, you’re obviously a eugenics. So anyway yeah, but people picked up on that

Malcolm Collins: in later works, Ola advised, quote unquote, writing the [00:41:00] Tiger using Modernity’s destructive forces for personal transcendence, rejecting collective politics for individual detachment.

Simone Collins: Wait, hold on. Explain to me again what writing the tiger means.

Malcolm Collins: So, it means to like, utilize the decadence and materialism of society as like a weight to train your soul. I, but then he did that through like sex, which seems to be doing the opposite because again, as soon as you go to the mythological, you can define anything however you want, without any, anyone you know, able to, to push back.

So I wanted to see the yes. So Beano Ro was a prominent 20th century Italian feminist and intellectual, her 1906 autobiographical novel, A woman is considered a landmark in Italian feminist literature detailing. Her rebellion against an abusive marriage, [00:42:00] societal constraints on women and her pursuit of personal freedoms, independence, and sexual autonomy.

She was openly non-monogamous, involved in leftist and progressive circles, and advocated for women’s emancipation. Qualities that aligned closely was what Ebola later condemned its feminist aberrations. Their relationship was intense and stormy set against the backdrop of Rome’s esoteric scene. Ebola was involved with Groupo, Dior and ol group, and El Maro drew from it in 1927.

Novel amo I love, therefore I Am where Ebola appears thinly veiled as a character. Bruno Telegra portrayed in a somewhat resentful or critical light. Accounts describe Ola as charismatic and magnetic in his use. Nicknamed the spider for drawing women in, but the affair ended partly because Amara wasn’t interested in monogamy and moved on to other things, including another figure from Ebola circle, Garrell parts.

She seemed to have a thing for like incredible misogynists. And [00:43:00] yeah, well because he, he, it seemed to come from his occult stuff. That, that is basically the gist of it. The, there were leftist occultic and there were right occulus and they hooked up together. And thought sex gave them magic, because of course they did.

Of

Simone Collins: course. Yeah. I I’m sure they were great for each other.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. So I wanna see what he thought about aesthetics and the profane.

Simone Collins: Hmm. What his entire existence was profane. What was profane to him.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, but I, he’s watching

Simone Collins: profanity.

Malcolm Collins: Ebola began his career as a painter in the date and futurist movements around the 1915.

God.

Simone Collins: Oh, of course. This explains everything.

Malcolm Collins: I love you so much, Simone. We we’re such a, we’re such a pair. Rege man. Rege man. Of course, I, I thought it thing in my head, but our audience has no idea what we’re talking about there except for the [00:44:00] gold. If they do

Simone Collins: chime in in the comments. We’ll,

Speaker: Well, ain’t we a pair raggedy man?

Malcolm Collins: So, producing abstract works he described as inner landscapes expressing the spirit was hermetic and esoteric references. He was influenced by vastly kowski the spirit animal, seeking an inner spiritual dimension in abstraction rather than commercial or academic art. By 1922, he abandoned painting, viewing avant-garde art as stipend by conventions and commercialized preferring philosophy and ESO terrorism.

For vola true aesthetics transcended the material, aligning with eternal truth and rejecting modern degenerate forms that lacked a connection to the transcendent or tr basically hierarchies.

All right. Next, the profane. Okay. So he sharply distinguished the sacred eternal transcendent and hierarchical from the [00:45:00] profane, modern, materialistic, and meaningless.

Simone Collins: Oh. Oh, that’s profane. Okay. Of course it is. To him,

Malcolm Collins: the profane represents the desecration of nature and the destruction of the organic cosmic worldview where everything reflects a higher meaning.

He criticized modernity for inverting things, turning the sacred into profane eeg, applying sacramental inso ability to ordinary marriages sacramental in, oh, interesting. Okay. So, he thought treating like a Christian marriage as sacramental in, in insolvable. Mm-hmm. That was profane to him. Because it, it wasn’t a super marriage, which is whatever he wanted.

It was, it was normal and profane marriage. He said, he, he said that marriage, and, and this is true to an extent, so I can see what he meant by this. He said that marriage had been degraded into a social formality. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. Yes. In love and society, profane is everything not sacrificed [00:46:00] or incorporated into a higher order leading to nihilism and detachment from tradition.

Ebola saw the profane as a hallmark of the kale yuga where material appetites dominate. So, but he just redefined his material appetites as being metaphysically nutritious.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And our whole argument around marriage is that it’s insufficiently, materialistic, that it has lost its function as a strategic business life legacy building.

Institution, and he’s like, no, we need to make it all about tantric sex and indulgence. And so, yeah, I guess that just very different conclusions. Okay. Go on.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I’m not gonna go too deep into the other stuff. I think you get the broader idea. Thanks, because I wanna

Simone Collins: have a stroke. This is, this is, I’m so deeply

Malcolm Collins: disturbed.

Here’s the gist of his worldview, right? Mm-hmm. And, and I, the reason why I wanna go into it and how silly a lot of it is when you see it and [00:47:00] how lame a lot of it is when you really get into it, is a lot of people who have only engaged with the parts of, as you saw our episode on H Guy, right? The parts of H guy’s philosophy, the fashionistas that freak out progressives, right?

And get progressives angry. They hear it and they think. That sounds really based and interesting, right? Mm-hmm. ‘cause they don’t know about it holistically. Mm-hmm. And when they dive, get into it holistically, they’re like, oh, that’s actually profoundly stupid. Yeah. They hear about a guy who’s known as a super fascist.

Right. Who thought of as, and it sounds

Simone Collins: delightful, but also, I mean, I think people, especially in, in modern times and including the left, the anti-colonial leftists, see fascism as extremely materialistic.

Malcolm Collins: Well, right. I mean, he basically saw hierarchy as in itself sacred, is the way I put it. That that is, that is [00:48:00] where he’s offered.

Yeah. But what is

Simone Collins: hierarchy if it is not based on materialistic achievement? I mean, historically it was being like, you are literally the biggest, strongest, early hominid. Right. And, and then you were the biggest, strongest, early hominid who also had lots of sticks and lots of. Food, and then it was lots of gold.

And then it was, it was, it was the biggest. And think about all the early leaders who were also like, freakishly tall. Yeah. And I wanna die easily. This is, this is all materialism

Malcolm Collins: because it is really important. To highlight the point that you’re making, which is hierarchy has no meaning.

Simone Collins: If it’s not also materialist.

Malcolm Collins: If it is, well, if it’s not observable, like if, if whatever the hierarchy, whatever you believe gives one group an advantage over another group or one individual and advantage over another individual. Mm-hmm. If that is not [00:49:00] something that is easily observable through how that individual interacts with the world or society through the flourishing, pre produced by that individual or that culture, or that group’s interaction mm-hmm.

Then the hierarchy is completely non meaningful. Yeah. And the, the reality is, is that the reason why people like this guy instead. Move towards the idea of spiritual hierarchies. And I know there’s not just spiritual hierarchies. You see this among mystics all the time when they’re like, well, people like me who are more in tune with the whatever, right?

Like they self define a, a, a form of hierarchy that they can only observe from their own subjective reality. So they, they take this position because it allows them to always be at the top of the hierarchy without having to objectively prove themselves in reality. Mm-hmm. If you, if you look at us, [00:50:00] I am like within any individual hierarchy, I am, I am only so good as I provably am.

Right? I am only you know, as, as an intellectual. So good as smart people or the, the, the, a large amount of smart people follow me and care what I have to say. And these are the people who are gonna influence the direction that society goes. And so they take on my ideas and then they build whatever the next movement is around my ideas.

Like I, when we point out now that we have one of the largest subreddits now this subreddit is, is I think probably larger in terms the weekly interaction. ‘cause Reddit is just larger now than the red pill ever was, right? And so that means that if you go you know, 10 years in the future and we’re able to keep this thing from getting banned, which is why we need mods, please reach out 10 years into the future.

Our our, there’s gonna be a generation of redditors, conservative redditors who were raised was in this intellectual and aesthetic [00:51:00] ecosystem, and then come out and being like, oh, it’s, it’s the base camp intellectual ecosystem. Right? Like, I, I know that in the same way that I would say this about the red pill, right?

Like Simone and I were red pillars, like when we’re critical of red pill, I think people think we’re being critical of something that we don’t consider ourselves still solidly within not, not, not even like former members. I’m not somebody who’s like bitter about the red pillar or anything like that.

I, I, I think it made some mistakes. And I think that it, it, you know, systemically teaches some things a bit wrong, but I think it was a very important movement for society to have. And I think that it was a movement that we needed to go through to get to something like maga or to get to the modern religious revival movements.

We’re beginning to see that are not happening in a traditional context. But that’s another episode. Mm-hmm. As to why an, another reason why mysticism is, is really, really bad is if what is fundamentally true about reality is subjective to the self. If you get in a disagreement with somebody and you have [00:52:00] different perspectives about what is metaphysically true, like if I disagree with his perspective on these things, he could just say, well.

I, I believe in my subjective reality and because it’s my subjective reality, therefore, you are wrong. And if there are people watching us and trying to determine what objective reality is, objective reality becomes a dominance competition or, or popularity competition among mystic gurus, which is, well, how they always end up going so crazy in wackadoo, right?

Because there’s no subjective way to call them out on. Well, that’s not true, right? Like objectively, let me prove to you that is not true. Finally I, I do understand this idea. ‘cause you’re like, where is his vitalism? His vitalism is in the self ownership that he preached to this idea that you can cultivate your own spirit until you become Oh, I heard

Simone Collins: that as self-owned.

Which 100%. He’s a walking self phone. But go on. [00:53:00] You you mean like that he’s just taken radical responsibility of himself, like spiritually or something.

Malcolm Collins: Go

Simone Collins: on. But as

Malcolm Collins: you point out, you’re actually advocating all real responsibility for yourself when you detach objective judgements about whether or not you are doing good things.

Mm-hmm. Right? Like whether or not you are moving in a good direction, whether or not you are actually improving. These are objective things that can be measured. And if you can’t measure them now he’d just say, well, like every day I’m writing the tiger through my tantric sex on corpses. Mm-hmm. But like, and he’d be like, no, it is hard for me to do.

I don’t, I don’t like doing it. And it’s like, then you’re just making it weirder.

Simone Collins: It’s hard work. My God. Get a life.

Wow,

Malcolm Collins: man. And I do like that B called out this guy, by the way, I, I went [00:54:00] to Margaret Sanger because his idea sounded a lot, you know, when, when you follow Planned Parenthood. Yeah, like her ideas really well, remember she thought different races had different soul qualities. And the reason she wanted to stop abortions is because she thought that there were only so many souls in pre-life and there were too many low quality souls being born.

And so we needed to stop people from having kids, especially blacks. In her mind,

Simone Collins: you mean the reason she wanted to make abortions more readily available is because there were low quality souls being, being brought into. We were pulling from the bottom of the barrel, like, oh man, can’t keep up the supply.

Malcolm Collins: That’s basically, yes. That’s basically her. You’re gonna toss in

Simone Collins: the gimp souls. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Thought we were scraping from the bottom of like the metaphysical soul barrel and that society was running out of souls. So we were only getting like the defective ones anymore.

Simone Collins: Defective souls. Wow. Yeah. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: [00:55:00] But no, it is, it is unfortunately.

Well

Simone Collins: these people aren’t having kids, so we can all just rest assured that this is all being slowly deleted and Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: the people whose ideologies are downstream of Spiritualistic vitalism, and this is, this is this key thing. He embodies Spiritualistic Vitalism and everyone I’ve ever known who has gone down the path of Spiritualistic Vitalism has had no kids.

If your vitalism of is, is not a form that is objectively observable in the real world and objectively cause on the real world, yeah, you are going to eradicate yourself from the timeline and your people from the timeline. Mm-hmm. And so many people, when they hear vitalism, they try to drift towards spiritual vitalism, which I think is one of the worst.

Poisons not just in in modern society, but in human history and, and we argue in other ones. You can watch our video on witches and stuff like that, that this is what is meant with the concept of [00:56:00] a witch. This, this, I know. We’re,

Simone Collins: we’re super though, like right now, we’re, we are Techo Puritanism, or sorry, techo Puritans.

That is our religion. Our religion is techno puritanism, and right now we’re, we’re leaning into our most active holiday, which is, is sort of a rough running month, kind of based on different conditions called Future Day, where we encourage our kids to think about the far future and long-termism and to sort of learn how to lean into self-improvement and contributing to making the world and, and long-term human flourishing a priority of them instead of just, you know, instant gratification.

I think we’re talking about a lot is the subtle forces that you to not. Can make the world a better place to not improve yourself. And we call that the baso lisc, it, we personify it as like this evil force. Not, well, not evil per se, but this malicious force that will drive you. It’s a culling [00:57:00] force. Exactly.

And, and so we, we try to explain to our kids that it’s just, it’s just, it, it’s the same thing as God to us. It’s just, it’s, it’s God on days when he’s removing it. Work

Malcolm Collins: mentalization of

Simone Collins: like, I was, I was, I was explaining it to our son Octavian like this because he loves army men right now, and like military, everything.

And I’m like, okay, so look at this Green Army man. When he is on our side, you know, we, we love him. He’s our friend, right? Mm-hmm. But what if we were the enemy? Would, would we be afraid of him? Yes. Because we’re the enemy and he’s going to destroy us. That is exactly what the baus is. The baus is. The guy on our side who is fighting for what we care about.

And you only need to be afraid of him if you are our enemy and his enemy. Yeah. But he’ll come after the weakest and worst elements of you. And so when I think about mysticism, I see it from a techno puritan standpoint [00:58:00] as a force ultimately of good, of the basilisk, in that it is systematically removing the weak-minded and indulgent of, of humanity.

It, it is a test and if you fail the test, you do not matter anymore. And that’s fine. So I

Malcolm Collins: think that this is a really interesting point that you’re making here that I wanna expand on a little bit. Specifically theologically speaking the, the, the, the, the devil to us, the bas synonyms, right?

Mm-hmm. Is in, in, in some forms of traditional Christianity is something that only punishes bad people when bad people do bad things. Mm-hmm. But if you look at the devil that’s actually in the Bible, that is not the devil’s core role. It is not to punish bad people. It is to test good people to make them better, but punish them if they fall or fail the test so that they don’t fail the test next time.

Right. Or, or, or punish them [00:59:00] so severely that they’re no longer part of the community or part of the population or part of the gene pool. Right? So, many people see the, the, the devil as only pun, which I’ve never understood, right? Like, okay, so the devil is bad because the devil punishes bad people.

Well, punishing bad people is good, right? Yeah. Like, are you

Simone Collins: mad at the police for arresting criminals? You only hate the police if you’re a criminal. Right?

Malcolm Collins: It’s the devil is bad because the devil tempts good people. And I’m like, but if good people are made stronger through temptation and better able to resist all of the temptations of life then isn’t that, does he punish them when they don’t give into temptation?

No, but he does punish them when they do give into temptation. Yes. So like that doesn’t seem like a, a holistically, and obviously this is where I think, you know, when you’re reading the Book of Job or something like that, people are like, why is God and the Devil or two com compartmentalizations of the [01:00:00] Divine having like a friendly conversation with each other?

And it’s because the devil is not a holistically negative thing. He was trying to show. Anyone can eventually be broken if he goes far enough. And the point was made there, and for all of us that no, some people are just holistically made stronger through the tests that you give them.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, and you know, no, he, he’s given everything back at the end of that, his wives and kids, of course, it doesn’t matter to them.

Right. You know, they, they still died, but their, their role in everything was still sort of played out. The point being is he was not given the ability to punish him when he did not give into temptation. Right. The, the, the punishment. A can be part of the temptation or it can be a, a a like a, a punishment for giving into temptation, but it is not punishment in and of itself.

Anyway, I think that that’s a really good point, Simon.

Note here if you’re like, well, he was an angel who rebelled against God and waged some sort of like civil war in heaven, , which means that he couldn’t have [01:01:00] been a partition of God. , There is no reason to believe any of that if you don’t believe Revelations was canonical, and I do not believe Revelations was canonical.

And you can go into our track series about why we think that.

Malcolm Collins: Them.

Simone Collins: And I think that this man is trash, and I’m not gonna back down on that. I, well, no. I’m always open to having my mind changed. Guys, tell me why this man was so great. May, maybe I can, I I lo I love a good steel man. I don’t know. So someone help me out here.

Why, why is this man not utter trash? Chime in. Love you guys. And over and out. I, I gonna tear my eyes out,

Malcolm Collins: okay? Love you. And, and by the way, for people who wonder why we argue so fervently that. The, the devil is a compartmentation of the divine is because if you believe that devil is a completely separate, supernatural entity, then you are definitionally a polytheist. You’re, you’re just a [01:02:00] trans poist.

You’re a polytheist defining themselves as a monist, a closeted,

Simone Collins: a closeted. Self toone? No, no. They’re

Malcolm Collins: just trans. It’s like a trans person who says, I’m a woman. I’m like, you’re, you’re, you’re definitionally not a woman. When they’re like, I’m a monotheist. I’m like, you’re definitionally not a monotheist. You believe in two divine entities.

And then they’re like, well, one entity is subservient to the other entity. It’s created by another entity. And we point out that’s actually really common in polytheistic traditions that in, in, in like the Greek tradition or something, there’s so one God that created all the other gods and the other gods are subservient.

You’re just defining him as not a god. Which is why I call it trans pol of them. Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is done by some religions or some iterations of Christianity from our perspective because they know that they’re not supposed to be ISTs, and so they just define themselves as not ISTs without having to deal with the theological implications of believing in multiple, supernatural divine entities.

Thank you. There are track three if you wanna know [01:03:00] more. Simone, I got you The update on the site Done today. Thank you. Is the new features. So it’s easy to share individual scenarios now from our fab.ai, which I’m excited about. And I’m, I mean even though I’m working on stuff like this is a sign of how stable everything else is. Been working on making sure that you can cross platform, load up your scenarios ‘cause some people are having issues with that.

And I am,

Simone Collins: We

Malcolm Collins: need Reddit mods from people who are like in our community and known that can’t be complete randos. So if you’re interested let us know because the subreddit no is the largest in terms of like active usership conservative subreddit, bigger than Joe Rogans.

So we gotta keep that deleted.

Simone Collins: Yeah. This is just based

Malcolm Collins: conservative stuff and. M Mulder’s most forbidden investigation tunnels, molder. Why would there be tunnels beneath a synagogue? Scully, [01:04:00] I don’t think we should be here.

I don’t think we should be asking these questions.

Simone Collins: Was that our conservative or base camp? It’s base camp. Okay. That checks out.

Malcolm Collins: There, there’s an Austria, then big buff, the Doge, and it says, we shall stop the Turkish, expand expansion and protect Europe and then’s Austria. Now a little dog Austrian president is asking all women to wear a hijab in solidarity with Muslims to fight rampant Islamophobia.

Simone Collins: Did that actually happen?

That’s amazing. I bet that did happen. But that’s. It is both hard to believe, but why would someone say it if it didn’t happen? But I’m too tired to look it up right now and we’re not gonna cover it, so unless we do cover it

Malcolm Collins: anyway. So, very, very fun. And yeah, and, and today’s episode is gonna be an interesting one for me because I don’t know that much [01:05:00] about this guy.

Like I’m, I just started studying him today and I was working today, so, you know, I got as much in as I could in terms of understanding this new philosophical framework, and I wanted to share it with you guys and talk through it, because I think it’s interesting. I’m excited, but I’m not an, an expert by any means on this stuff.

I, I generally do not like philosophers. I find that, oh, is that

Simone Collins: what he is? He’s not just some kind of.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he’s a philosopher. Interesting. Or a, like a, like a theorist of like world frameworks and stuff like that.

Simone Collins: Who put him on your radar?

Malcolm Collins: Actually AI put him on my radar. Really? Oh, yeah. I was trying to learn about the sort of ancestral roots as some of the new strains in the new, right.

Mm-hmm.

And it’s specifically like Baps ideology. Yeah. And it pointed him as like the predecessor of some of these.

Simone Collins: And un does he have a big following.

Malcolm Collins: Unheard did a piece saying that he loved by the new Right. You know, and that he’s like a big philosopher. Well, you’ll, you’ll understand. You’ll [01:06:00] see where he’s coming from and we’ll talk about where we agree and disagree.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Speaker 2: Sh, do you hear that? Yes. Iny, come with me. Come with me. My God. Sh My God. Okay, who’s gonna go first? Me. I’m Okay. Go, go, go. Hold on. Take to the rails. Did you hear something?

Oh, what, what? What? Thank you. What is I dying?

Speaker 3: I love you.

What? Thank you. I love you. Thank you. Watch. Thank you. I said thank you.

Watch. Oh, he gave you back your magnet tiles.[01:07:00]

Thank you.

Speaker 4: Look at all these toys. Oh, future debris. Woo. Whoa, Andy, look at that. It’s a train set. I know, I know. That debris

Speaker 3: stick. That’s so cool.

You see? You wanna see this again? Who? You what? What?

He laughed. Oh my God. Do you hear him? Oh my God. He laughed. They’re like us. Do you hear him? What is it? What is it? I in this box, this is yours. I did what? What is it? Woo. What is it? I know this is for me. No, look, it’s, it’s Octavian helicopter [01:08:00] toasty. That means that that must be toasty. Octavian. It’s a mermaid.

Speaker 4: It’s a mermaid doll. Just what you asked for. Yeah. Yeah.

Toasty. That’s, that’s Octavian helicopter. What? And look at that toasty look. What’s this? I, I opened? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I did not, I didn’t know that was long. So I open it. Andy, that must mean that this is for you girl, Andy. What’s this? Look? He puts tape here. What is in there? He put tape we made to tell Dad, look.

Indy, what’s this? Oh, outside God. Oh,

so many presents. Look at that. A beautiful train set and toasty. Show me. What did you get? What did you get? Like, I think I see something. [01:09:00] What do you see? It’s under the place. Oh, what is it? What is it? This mask. Open it up. Okay. Dad. What is it?

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