Transformative Failures and Creative Growth

How can you release more creativity into your writing — and your life? What are some practices to foster creativity in a time of change and overwhelm? Jacob Nordby gives his tips.

In the intro, tips for spring cleaning as indie authors; Death Valley – A Thriller Kickstarter; Death Valley book trailer; Footprints Podcast – Bath in Literature;

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Jacob Nordby is an entrepreneur and author of several books, including The Creative Cure: How Finding and Freeing Your Inner Artist Can Heal Your Life.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Indications we might need a “creative cure”
• Practices to strengthen your connection with creativity
• Journaling as a tool to work through mental and creative blocks
• Practices around the physical body
• Tapping into your intuition
• Overcoming the fear that holds you back
• Time and effort involved in changing career directions
• How to keep pivoting, changing, and moving forward

You can find Jacob at JacobNordby.com.

Transcript of Interview with Jacob Nordby

Joanna: Jacob Nordby is an entrepreneur and author of several books, including The Creative Cure: How Finding and Freeing Your Inner Artist Can Heal Your Life. So welcome to the show, Jacob.

Jacob: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Jo.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into creativity and writing.

Jacob: Well, I was born … We won't start there! When I was 10 years old, I came out into the living room, and I'd been reading a book, which I did mostly. We didn't watch television or see movies or anything like that. So books were my very best friends.

So I came out of the living room and told my parents that I want to be a writer. Of course, I had told them before I wanted to be a spy or firefighter or something. This was the first thing that really hit for me, and I could really feel it.

Then fast forward into adulthood, and I promptly forgot that, and plunged into starting businesses and really trying to secure my place in the American dream. I woke up around age 35 realizing that this was all feeling very hollow.

After a series of events that turned my world upside down, I moved to Austin, Texas. It was there, working two or three part time jobs and trying to figure out what was next, that I remembered that I really wanted to be a writer. So I began to write about 15 years ago.

One of the things that helped me get started was The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Are you familiar with that work?

Joanna: Yes, absolutely.

Jacob: Okay, well, I was sitting in this warehouse and was writing away and began to go back into this book my father had given me, The Artist's Way. It really broke me open. I longed, at some point, to be able to share the process of not just writing, but of discovering who we really are and expressing that.

Fast forward about five or six more years from there, and I had the great pleasure of meeting Julia, and she's become a dear friend. So that's one aspect of the work I do, is I work with her and share these things.

Also, in my own world, I hold workshops and do one-on-one work with people, guidance work, with both writers and non-writers. It's just something I love because —

I see creativity as our vital spark, as our life force energy, and it's meant to flow in every part of our lives.

Often, when people will show up saying, “I'm creatively blocked,” we will pull that thread a bit and discover it's not just “creatively blocked.” I'm doing my air quotes fingers right now. It's feeling blocked in life.

So, often as we work through what are some channels in life that need to be opened up, they discover maybe it was “I need to clean my garage.”

Then they go clean the garage and come back in two weeks and say, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea how much I was boxing up my emotions, my sense of possibility, and everything. I found old boxes from my divorce or from when my mother died. I went through there, and all of a sudden I feel emotionally open and able to express again.”

So I love working with people in so many ways and helping them realize that expression is meant to be as natural as breathing for the creative spirit.

Joanna: Well, let's get into the book then, because it's called The Creative Cure. I find this an interesting title because the word “cure” implies a sickness where we start from. So I guess you mentioned feeling blocked there.

What are some of the things in our life or our writing that indicate we might need such a cure?

Jacob: You know, it's interesting. I wrote a previous book called Blessed Are the Weird, and that was this very direct sort of manifesto for creatives. I was surprised how many people showed up and raised their hands and said, “I'm one of this group,” whatever this group is.

There were a lot of other people, Jo, who would tell me, “I'm not that creative. In fact, I don't know if I have a creative bone in my body.” My heart just said we need to change this idea, what the idea of creativity has become.

In a lot of cases, I feel like it's been affected by the industrial era of production and distribution, which are wonderful things.

A lot of artists find themselves stuck because they can't see how what they have to create and share will ever become widely viable in that way.

So, cure. Here's what I feel very deeply about our creative spirit is that it can't be broken or damaged, but the process of becoming adults in the modern world often fills the connection between who we are out there and our true inner creative self with static. So, for me —

The cure isn't curing the essence of who we are as humans or creatives. It is curing that connection.

I feel like we are all susceptible to it in some way. Our attention spans are fractured. We have a rate of change that is, I feel, really unsustainable for the human psyche to absorb in our lifetimes.

In this era, we've absorbed more change than previous generations might in two or three generations. So I feel like a lot of us can feel hurried and frantic and just out of sorts, and that will become evident in our creative work.

So, for me, it's not so much curing the true person. It's looking at what practices can I bring in that will strengthen and revitalize that connection.

Joanna: Yes, I get you on the pace of change. On the day we're recording this, just yesterday, Microsoft announced this new quantum state of matter. I was like, seriously, haven't we got enough going on? Do we need something else again? So it does definitely feel like that.

So you mentioned there's some things that can help us maybe break through that static to fix that connection with our creativity if we're feeling like we've lost it. I like the word static, actually. I think sometimes it really does feel like that, just a bit disconnected.

What are some of the creative practices you recommend?

Jacob: One thing that I love to recommend as a starting point is a ritual. Ritual can sound kind of mystical or complicated. To me, it's really a state of awareness. So let's just say we make our cup of coffee in the morning and run out the door and gulp it as we drive, that's one way.

Another way would be to slow down and say, “I am creating this cup of coffee,” and bring all of our attention and intention into the process of it, which changes our experience of it.

I love to invite people who are sitting down to write to create some version of a ritual, so they realize they are entering a different state of awareness. Our awareness is so yanked in different directions. We jump on social media, and we see distressing things.

We see all these things coming around, and we often don't realize that we take that fractured or static-filled state of being or awareness into what we're doing, which means that we're not really allowing the pure stuff to come through as easily. It can feel harder.

So I love creating these personal rituals. Whether it's as simple as lighting a candle, it can be almost anything. The real keys here are the attention and intention that I bring.

It's an interesting shift, like to invite ourselves in there and notice that, oh, in this space, I feel quite different.

I feel I have access to different ideas, a different way of expressing.

I'll just use this morning as an example. I woke up, and it's really cold here in Northern USA. It's gray outside, and I wasn't feeling particularly inspired. So I went to my favorite little coffee shop with my journal, and this will be another practice I'll talk about in a moment, but asked myself to enter a different state of awareness.

So, for me, one item is creating these small rituals that help us intentionally shift into a different state of mind.

Joanna: Well, since you mentioned journals, maybe talk more about that.

Jacob: Well, you're aware of The Artist's Way and Morning Pages, and that's where I started with that, really in earnest. I also realized that many people don't find a whole lot of value in just long form, sort of dumping it out on paper. I do. I'm a writer. That's one of my favorite ways of expressing and exploring.

So over time, I developed a set of three questions, and I've shared this. When I first created this years ago, Jo, I put it out and was pretty sure it was way too basic and didn't have a lot of value.

Then I had people get a hold of me. Therapists were saying, “Oh, my goodness. My clients are journaling for the first time using this practice.”

So the three questions are, the first one is, “How do I feel right now?”

I'll come back to that. The second one is, “What do I need right now?” The third one is, “What would I love to create right now?”

If I'm going through a lot of emotional turbulence or something, I'll often switch that question up a bit and say, “How would I love to feel right now?”

So going back to that first question and the second, early in life, many of us internalize the messages that our needs don't matter and our feelings don't matter. In fact, how many of us have been told you can't trust your feelings?

So by asking these questions and really grounding them, really coming into the moment, how do I feel right now? Oh, I feel grouchy and tired. I feel uninspired. Or, I feel great. Whatever it might be.

The fact is, we send a signal to our psyche by asking that question and answering it that says, “I matter. My feelings matter.” Then we move on to the, “What do I need right now?”

Again, often it's prosaic for me, “Oh, I'm thirsty. I need to get a drink of water.” “Oh, I'm tired. I should take a small nap.”

Or it might be something larger or more existential, but in any case, again, it sends that message to the inner self saying, “I matter.” There's something wonderfully calming about that, is what I've discovered, Jo.

Joanna: I wonder if that's also grounding in the physical body. I mean, I walk a lot, so if I need to ground myself, I often will go for a walk out in nature, and that really helps. Or I do lifting, lifting heavy objects, powerlifting. Again, anything that grounds me in my physical body actually takes me away from the screen.

Most of what stresses us is beyond the screen and isn't happening right now, I guess. Do you have those practices around grounding in the physical body?

Jacob: Oh, yes. I love that you mentioned walking. That's one of my favorite practices. I also teach, and use as often as I can, just really simple breathing techniques, like box breathing. Often, to your point, I find that —

We are often quite disassociated from our bodies. We spend so much time up in our heads and in concepts versus what's in reality.

So, yes, I feel like these things can be incredibly simple. I do love going to the gym and lifting heavy things as well.

The walk thing, you know, if I can just put my phone in my back pocket or leave it home, which, frankly, I don't really do very often, but go out and take a walk. Things change. There's this bilateral stimulation that's happening when we're walking. It's almost like an EMDR effect, if you want to put it that way.

I've found that walking can often help us process deeply and open things up. I can't tell you the number of times I've taken a long walk and come back with the solution to some challenge I was having in my writing work that day. I would love to hear if you've had those experiences too.

Joanna: Oh, absolutely. It's one of my go-tos. I walk every day. I live in Bath in the UK. It's a very walkable city, and I live near a canal. So I walk an awful lot. I've done pilgrimages and all of this. So walking, for me, is like a core thing for mental health and physical health and creativity.

As you say, sometimes you just go for a walk and you come back—and, I mean, I take my phone too, for writing all the notes down that come up as I walk. So, yes, I think that's important.

I do want to come back on the journaling because, and this is very interesting, you mentioned earlier about this industrial era, production and distribution. Keep in mind that I'm a professional author. I write books for a living, and many of the listeners, we write books.

Let's say we have half an hour to write, the feeling is, “I must be writing words for my book.” Whatever that book is, and there's always another book, right?

How do you suggest people balance this need to write words for the next book versus journaling for the need of expressing yourself?

Jacob: I love that. I want to be very clear that I'm not throwing rocks at the industrial era. Civilization has really benefited from so many things that have happened there. I think that sometimes, especially people who are just getting started as writers, they can feel all this pressure.

You know, Jo, you've written many, many books and bestsellers, and just had that experience. So that's such a different thing than most people have who are just getting started. I think there can be this intense focus on, “How do I write a best seller?” So that can often become its own block.

Back to the journaling piece, I think that a lot of times people conflate those. It's like, well, if I'm going to write, then I need to write on my project, and journaling feels like writing.

I really love to think of journaling more like emotional, mental, spiritual yoga.

So it's a practice, but it's not the same as what we're doing when we sit down to write. In fact, I would challenge anyone who is feeling a little creatively blocked but also doesn't feel like journaling would have much value, I would suggest trying it for a week.

Spend 10 minutes, just 10 minutes. It's 10 minutes a day, writing out—using my three questions is fine, or anything else—but just writing out, “This is what's up for me. What is coming up for me? Okay, this is what's up. This is what's really bothering me.”

So often, I find when I sit down to do that, as I pull what looks like a very small dangling thread, it leads to much deeper things that are going on in my life. The act of acknowledging those things does something freeing. It opens up the channel.

So when I sit down to write, I'm no longer also trying to multitask by having three different conversations with people I'm having difficulty with in my head, or sorting out my taxes in my head, or whatever. There's something really wonderful about putting it on the page and acknowledging it.

I think that there are parts of the psyche that come forward and say, because you paid attention, and we know that you're going to pay attention to this as needed, now we'll relax. We had to get your attention. Now we have your attention. You've acknowledged it.

Now we'll relax so you can go on and do these other things that are important to you. I find that to be tremendously valuable, versus just trying to power through with all these prose flying around my head.

Joanna: Yes, I think for me, it's just that it is a completely different thing. I feel like the issue is people think writing is writing, but it's not. I call myself a binge journaler, and this is one of my issues with Morning Pages, is that kind of “it must be every day.”

Of course, we don't like shoulds and shouldn't, so we'll come back to that.

I definitely do not journal every day, but it sort of builds up and builds up and builds up, and then I will go to a cafe and I will journal, and all this stuff will come out.

Then it might be three weeks or something until I feel that need again.

In the meantime, I do my job, which is writing words for publication, which is like a completely different thing. So is it just the feelings that we have and learning to tap into where are those feelings going?

Is it a “making up a story” kind of feeling, or is it an “I really need to sort out my life” kind of feeling?

Jacob: I really love that distinction, and I'm glad you brought it up because I don't believe in dogma either, so shoulds and shouldn'ts. I really love that you're so in touch with your intuition or your feelings, that you're able to go, “Oh, I need a different version of this today.” I feel like that's really wise.

Joanna: Oh, that's very kind. Well, you mentioned intuition there, and you do talk about intuition and also joy around our writing in the book.

If people feel like they're not very intuitive, how can they tap into that and also find more joy?

Jacob: I would love to hear your definitions of intuition. When you hear that word, and not just the straight up definition, but any connotations, like what comes up for you when you hear that word?

Joanna: I guess we're coming back to feelings again. I just sense that I should do something. I am an intuitive writer, so I don't plot, necessarily. I write the next book with whatever kind of comes up for me. So it's just sort of tapping into what my creative self wants to do, I guess.

Jacob: I love that, and I didn't expect a lot different. I was just curious. Some people have a pretty negative connotation, or feel a negative connotation, in that word. They feel like it's really mystical. They feel like, oh, it's just sort of woo or out there. I would suggest it's extremely grounded.

I mean, I think you articulated it really well. You know, this is the feeling of this thing.

I have a friend who's a neuropsychologist, and he wrote a great book called No Self, No Problem. We were having this wonderful conversation one day, actually, while I was writing The Creative Cure.

I said, “Well, Chris, it feels like what you're saying is in our modern world, it's almost as if we've told a body builder to only work out the muscles on the left side of their body. Like that's the only thing that has value. Don't even bother with the right side. Then after 20 years of following that advice, the body builder has a hard time even walking down the road because there's no functional balance or muscle.”

He got all excited. He said, “Oh, yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.” I think we have to be aware that in our current paradigm, the left brain activities are so highly valued and rewarded that we tend to distrust what's happening in the right side.

This includes our experience of creativity in a more free flowing way. It includes experience of intuition, of feelings, of imagination.

So, for me, it's never the idea that we need to get rid of the left brain activity. It's like we really need those to finish a book, to put it out there, to take these steps forward, but we've over emphasized it. So what I like to encourage us to do is play little games.

Notice throughout the day what synchronicities come up.

We don't have to attach any particular meeting to them. If you see repeating numbers, or you're driving down the road and you just have this nudge to take this road versus the other road on your way to your destination.

I like to just play with it without going, okay, I'm going to have some miraculous thing, or an epiphany, or something dramatic is going to happen, or I've just avoided a horrible death. It doesn't have to be anything dramatic like that.

Just the noticing of the interoception, the signals that are coming up from our bodies and from our other senses, and tuning into them a little bit more. We can find that there is very interesting guidance available to us at all times. People can interpret that mystically, or people can be very practical with it.

There's some brain science here, where when we settle down from our fight or flight response, from our higher anxiety levels, we enter that ventral vagal state, Jo, and that's where all the good stuff happens.

I love to call it the Green Zone, or the creative zone, because as we settle more deeply, we become more aware. Our tunnel vision begins to fade, and we become aware of the answers and the ideas that are all around us.

So I love to invite people to play with it and actually really use it as a game, so it doesn't have to feel so serious. Like, what am I feeling right now? If I totally listen to my body and to my senses, what would I do this morning for breakfast versus what I always do, for example. Again, it can be very simple.

Joanna: I feel like maybe people have a problem with trust and are afraid of getting something wrong.

I'm very creatively confident now after many years of being a writer, but at the beginning it was like, well, I feel like I should do this thing, but what if I'm wrong?

What if I spend the next six months working on this book, and then nobody wants it? Or what if I choose to spend some money on this particular marketing thing, and then it just doesn't work?

This fear of making a choice based on intuition, it holds people back. What are your thoughts on that?

Jacob: If you don't mind, I'd love to ask a question in response. I'm curious if you can think back over your career, or just general life, and think about a time you did make a mistake?

Something you look back on later, and were like, “Oh, I would never have done that again,” but that it actually led you into experiences that actually became very important parts of your life. Can you think of anything like that?

Joanna: Yes, well, obviously there's lots of them because we all make tons of mistakes.

I mean, the big one that I often talk about is back before print on demand, I did a massive print run. Back in 2007, I did a big print run of my first book, and then they all sat in my garage because I didn't know anything about book marketing.

I didn't realize that if you wrote a book, nobody would buy it unless you did some marketing. So that actually led me to start The Creative Penn, to start this podcast, to learn about book marketing. What really sort of jump started my career was this massive failure. So, yes, absolutely.

I mean, we all do these things, don't we? But—

Fear holds people back.

Jacob: Always. I mean, I don't know if there's one other factor that holds us back more than simple fear. I feel like it's very primal. We have this wiring that includes a negativity bias, and that's such a survival thing. It serves us, right, so there's nothing wrong with it. I think we just have to be aware of it.

Our imaginations are tuned, and often from a very early age, to begin imagining scenes in which we are experiencing rejection or failure or something painful, disappointment, and so we often use our imaginations primarily for that cause.

So I love to invite people to begin just taking a recess, even if it's only five minutes, and imagining themselves in scenes of what they would really love to experience.

I just love the story you just told. I know that it's completely like imaginary, but I'm just curious, if you hadn't printed all those books and had to learn how to market, and perhaps got picked up by a different publisher, and everything just kind of went swimmingly, I'm just curious what you wouldn't be enjoying in your life right now. Can you imagine what that might be?

Joanna: What I wouldn't be enjoying?

Jacob: Like you have such beautiful work in this podcast, and all that you do, and the way you serve and teach the writing community. So I'm just curious, if things had worked out better, you know, like a garage not full of your books, I'm just curious what you wouldn't have now if you hadn't made that mistake.

Joanna: Well, I think what happened was because of that failure in print publishing at that time in history, it just also coincided. You used the word synchronicity earlier, and I know Jungian psychology, so I absolutely love synchronicity.

It was the same year that the Kindle launched and the iPhone launched, and when I failed in this print publishing, traditional media, you know, I got on national TV—I was in Australia at the time—but then none of it worked.

Then I saw the Kindle, I saw the iPhone, and I saw Americans, and I was like, what if I can use this technology and I don't have to use print books?

I can reach these people through digital means.

So I got on the Kindle, and the iPhone, and podcasting very, very early, and have kind of surfed that technological wave since then. So that “mistake” led me into so much. But you keep putting this back on me, Jacob—

I think you need to tell us about one of your mistakes that has turned into success.

Jacob: Oh, my god. Well, you know, I alluded to it earlier, but I had built these businesses, and I was waking up at 3am every day absolutely terrified. Everyone around me, all they saw was this big new office I had built. All they saw was the influence I had around town or whatever.

They couldn't see how terrified I was.

That was around 2007, actually. So I had a pretty big breakthrough. I went to what I thought was a meditation retreat. It turned out to be a shamanic initiation, and I didn't know what a shaman was.

I had a medicine journey during that that was like this massive moment of clarity, and I had no idea what to do with it. I went back to my life, to my office, and scrambled as hard as I could.

All I knew is that I had experienced some aspect of me that was free, that wasn't afraid, and that would actually love to have created something very different with life. I also had no idea how to rearrange my life. I just I felt so responsible.

The next year or so, the financial meltdown, the mortgage meltdown, came along and just wiped me out. So, of course, I don't like to sugar coat these things and go, “Oh, you know, everything happens for a reason, and it was exactly what I needed.”

It's like, no, it was absolutely terrifying and turned me upside down, but that was the event. I could look back and say, “Oh, I made so many mistakes. I got in so far too deep into these projects and all that.”

The truth is, though, that experience—and I love that you're familiar with Jungian work—that's where I began to really learn about the Jungian work during that time, Jo, and that was what really cracked me open and allowed me to find out who I was under all those previous layers.

It was like I was wearing this really heavy, ill-fitting armor for so long, and so that was one of those really big “mistakes” that led to me finding the path I was really meant to be on in the first place.

Joanna: That's interesting. I think we might be like almost exactly the same age. I think we've gone through things at exactly the same time.

Time is a really important thing here because both of us are talking about experiences. I also got laid off in the financial crisis, and it took a lot of time, but that also shaped the way I run my business now.

So let's just talk about the perspective of time because it feels like both of us have said, “Oh, this really bad thing happened, and then I changed my life.” How long did it take you to extricate yourself from the situation you were in and be in a life where you were more happy and fulfilled? Not that we're ever completely there.

I feel like that's what people need, is this sort of perspective on—

If you want to change direction, how long does it take? What's the effort involved?

Jacob: Do you want me to give a comfortable story, or do you want me to tell what I feel is the truth?

Joanna: The truth, absolutely.

Jacob: I love what you said on your website. You know, it hasn't always been this way. No, and I would never want to discourage anyone by saying it can be a really lengthy process.

I will say that, at least in my experience, I had so much I was carrying when it comes to my beliefs about myself and the world and what I was capable of, and all of that, that that big, sort of terrifying event that shook everything up, it was like I had some years of simply going.

I'd been running so fast that I haven't ever looked under the hood, if you will. I'm mixing my metaphors there. My mother is a therapist, and she likes to use the idea of skating on a frozen river. She said I skated on this frozen river and I was terrified that if ever slowed down, I would fall in, the ice would crack and I would fall in.

She's like, one day the ice just broke open, and I fell in, and I had no choice but to do all this inner work and examination. I think that's a really beautiful way to look at it.

So once the process of self-discovery really gets underway, I would like to say it's exactly 16 months, in my experience. It can take longer, but if we're willing to see it as that, and not just numb it out or try to run away from it or do whatever over the top of it —

If we're willing to go into that exploration, what we'll find in there is ourselves.

What we'll find in there is our authentic voice. What we'll find in there is our sense of purpose. So I'd love to give, well, it's a range of one to seven years, but in my experience, it was several years before I even began to feel that my footing was coming back, Jo. I would love to hear what your experience of that was.

Joanna: Well, again, pretty similar. It's funny, I was just reflecting then because you're reminding me of those early days. This book, The Creative Cure, I feel like now I'm not in the place where I need this, but this is the book I needed back in 2005 when I was 30 years old and thinking, “What the hell am I doing with my life?”

I read, then, and I listened to a lot of audios. Tony Robbins, a good self-help guru. Jack Canfield, The Success Principles. Those are the books I was reading, and I was trying to change my mindset. Then I figured out that I wanted to write, and then I got into writing.

It was a process of years. So between 2005 being really super miserable, to 2007 I really sort of put that first book out. Then 2011 was when I finally left my job to go full time. [Check out my timeline here.]

I always talk about it taking five years, so it's kind of good that you put it in that ballpark, too.

Jacob: Well, I think otherwise, Jo, it's easy, and god knows I tried to do this, I tried to shortcut the process as often as I could. Like, get me out of here. This is not comfortable. It's not fun.

I think that being aware that short-cutting it can—I've seen it happen a lot of times. I wasn't actually writing, but I got really sort of springboarded forward a bit. I entered this thing called The Next Top Spiritual Author Competition. That was when I was living in Austin, and there was this publishing deal as kind of the big carrot.

Of course, I didn't win that competition, but I got to witness a lot of other writers, and this is my first time of really being in the space with a lot of other writers. This was kind of a global thing, and there were a lot of people who had entered it. Many of us got to know each other, some of whom are still my friends to this day.

I also got to witness a lot of people, Jo, who had had some kind of experience, and they wanted to write about it. They wanted to share their wisdom with the world. They also hadn't given it the time to really cook, to mature.

So I've watched some of them get a little bit frozen there, to where had they been willing to keep going in their own process and let it grow deeper for a while, let it really mature, they would have been able to keep going.

I've seen some of them kind of freeze frame there, and they've never been able to move beyond that one thing.

They reformed their identity a little too quickly around, “oh, this is who I am,” you know.

I don't want to make fun of that at all because I think it's very natural. Anytime we're feeling out of sorts or out of balance, we want to recover our sense of equilibrium.

So I have a lot of compassion for that, but I would encourage anyone going through what feels like being turned upside down and shaken, give yourself some grace. Realize that jumping on it too quickly and saying, “This is now who I am,” might actually rob you of some real benefits that will enrich your work down the line.

Joanna: This interview is certainly going in a different direction than I thought it would be, but we're leaning into that.

You talk there about moving beyond the one thing, and those people who were stuck. This is something I think about a lot, and my listeners will know this is something I've been thinking about for a while because, obviously I started in this independent author career back in 2007.

For the last few years, I've been really thinking about how to make sure everything stays fresh and new, rather than go into a rut.

Every industry, although being an independent author was new in sort of 2007, and there was a lot of new things, things have changed a lot since then. Technologies, obviously.

What we don't want to be is stagnant in our creativity, in our writing, in our lives. I know there'll be people listening who have been writing for decades as well. Some people listening will be writing for 30 to 40 years.

How do we keep things fresh?

How do we keep pivoting, changing, and moving forwards, when we have a career that we love, when we do something we love, but we know we can't get stagnant?

Jacob: I feel like that's a ten million dollar question.

Joanna: You must be in a similar position, right? I mean, you've been doing what you do a long time, and you work with people who've been doing it a long time. What you don't want to be is the jaded person.

Jacob: I was looking over your work, Jo, and I just love how diverse your work is. I feel like you have a lot to teach me about this, actually, in terms of just really being a little more prolific and writing these different types of things.

I feel like every creative endeavor, anything that's truly original, there is this required uncertainty.

I don't know how this will work out. Without that, often we find ourselves sort of repeating ourselves.

I'm thinking of some massively famous writers in the US. One in particular comes to mind for some reason, whose work has become so formulaic, but it's always a blockbuster.

I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with writing to formulas. I think we all do it to some degree, but I just look at some of these things and realize, oh, the production distribution has become more important than the art, in some cases.

So to step outside of that, to step over the line of, this is what I know. This is what I know works for me in terms of bringing me financial security or whatever it might be. I think there's that itch.

I think it goes back to what you were talking about earlier, about intuition, Jo. It's that sense of, okay, I know I'm being called outside of this familiar sort of routine. I don't think there's a point at which it's like, okay, this is wrong. So it's not, to me, about right or wrong.

Maybe a person decides I really just love writing according to this template or formula. I just really love doing this, and I love knowing kind of what to expect from it and all of that. So I wouldn't say everyone needs to always be leaping off into the abyss and building their wings or something.

I would love to hear your thoughts, since we're exploring this together. I definitely didn't expect the interview to go this way, either. So I'm in the deep end.

Joanna: Well, I think it is about taking risks. It's funny because between like 2005/2006 and then when I left my job in 2011, I was working a day job. So I was working as a business consultant, and then I eventually went part time. So what I was doing, I was doing on the side, and that's how I think about it now.

So right now, for example, I'm writing a screenplay, and it's a risk, and it's not making me any money. So it's almost like I'm doing it on the side. So I feel like the taking risks, where we both started, we took risks to unwind one career and start another.

Maybe it is about doing things on the side, whether you love your job or whether you're stuck in a job.

Jacob: Ooh, I love that. There were people who asked me early on as I was writing and putting things out there, why I wouldn't just take the full leap into trying to earn my living right from the written word.

One thing that I told them then is I didn't want to put my process under that kind of financial pressure early on. I'm like, if I can look at the job that I'm doing, the day job to pay the bills, if I can look at that as a funding source rather than, “It must fulfill my creative needs.”

Those things are very important to me in life, but there was a period of time during which it was just important for me to look at the work I did for pay as a funding source and not try to make it more than that.

For some reason, that actually freed up that energy I would have used in being miserable about having to work this stupid job for money. It freed that energy up to go, oh, this is how I fund being able to take my time and really grow as a writer.

Joanna: Well, we are almost out of time. I think you and I could do this for a lot longer.

Tell people where can they find you and your books online.

Jacob: Well, you can go to JacobNordby.com, that's probably the easiest way.

I would love to just say how much I love the world of writers, Jo. You've been doing such amazing work in this space for a really long time. I just want you to know, I'm so grateful that you invited me here. Thank you for doing the good work you're doing.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Jacob. That was great.

The post Intuition, Journaling, And Overcoming Fear. The Creative Cure With Jacob Nordby first appeared on The Creative Penn.