Intro

Transcript

Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live.

Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

Martin: Okay. Natasha, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast.

Natasha: You are welcome, Martin. Thanks for having me.

Martin: It’s great to have you on. Let’s start right at the very beginning. When did your sleep problems first begin and what do you feel caused those initial issues with sleep?

Natasha: I think it was 2022 and we were still very much within the pandemic. And so there was of course like bad news all around, but I wasn’t necessarily stressed by that. All our children were outta school in the sense that all the schools were shut down.

Natasha: At that point, my like 5-year-old or 6-year-old son, he was having to do his online classes and the day was just relentless, right? Because me, my husband, we were both working, we didn’t have any help at home. And then he had these online classes. So I had found this sort of nanny person who could help out during the day so that we could get our work done.

Natasha: And I think she basically just called in sick. And I think like now, and this is all in hindsight, but I think it was some sort of like anxiety from that. And she wasn’t being very specific about whether she was, she had COVID or whether she was just, she said, I’ve hurt my foot. And, I think it was basically the fact that there was a lot of uncertainty about when she would be back and whether she would be back.

Natasha: And I couldn’t sleep that night when she said, I’m not coming tomorrow. And, I think that was fine because the next day rolled around, but then the day after that, again, I sort of couldn’t fall back to sleep. And you know what happens when you haven’t slept one night and you feel like you have this huge day to get through the next day you try to overcompensate.

Natasha: So I think I probably try to get into bed really early and I couldn’t fall asleep. And then I think I probably still just got out and read a book and got on with it.

Natasha: So the days had been quite difficult to get through with a small child and work. I think by the third day I started noticing, I suddenly noticed the fact that I hadn’t slept very well and that I wasn’t being able to fall asleep.

Natasha: And so the third night, I just really couldn’t sleep at all because I’d become very attentive to the fact that I was having this difficulty and that I had to. And so I think that’s what set it off. I don’t think there was anything more than that. Once it got started it just became this kind of vicious spiral of crashing pretty much after two or three days of sleeping very badly.

Natasha: And then feeling slightly recovered the next day only to not be able to go back to sleep that night. And yeah, I think I started paying so much attention to the fact that I was having difficulty sleeping, that it was just getting harder and I think it, it turned into a huge full-blown problem.

Martin: I’m gonna guess that there’s been other times in your life where you might have got a little bit less sleep or a lot less sleep than normal. And then things figured themselves out and sleep got back on track. What do you think was different this time around?

Natasha: So I think a few things might have been different.

Natasha: One was of course, that I think the pressure in the pandemic was very high on productivity and just somehow getting through the day. So not just, you had a lot of things to do at work. You had very little help and I had a child and I think also because there was this idea that there was some degree of latitude with your partners.

Natasha: If for some reason you are sick, then he can pick up the slack more than what he’s normally doing. But I think he was completely slammed as well. As a family I think we’d become very aware of just how we were stretched beyond like capability.

Natasha: So I think maybe that was one like predisposing condition that it, it made the need for rest so much higher. And therefore I think there was some kind of a, psychological reaction to the fact that when you thought that you really needed to rest, you weren’t being able to. I also do think, I do think it maybe had something to do with COVID because I did get COVID early 2022.

Natasha: And I think I got, ever since then I’ve had COVID twice. And every time I’ve had COVID I’ve had a little bit of difficulty with sleep and a little bit of hyper arousal. So I, I think maybe it was a combination of these two things. But normally now if that happens, it just resolves itself because I don’t sit and, I don’t get too upset about it.

Natasha: But at that time, perhaps, maybe some sort of like the physiological part was there, and then there was this huge psychological reality.

Martin: Would you say that because it was such a stressful period it felt like maybe the stakes were higher than they were in the past. So as a result, you put more pressure on yourself to get sleep back on track.

Martin: There was more trying, more effort, more pressure.

Natasha: Yeah. I think there’s also one of the things I have realized and listening to your podcast, it’s something that I’ve observed. There are a lot of people who say that they develop insomnia. Many of them say that they were excellent sleepers.

Natasha: They were brilliant sleepers before and they could sleep anywhere, anytime. And that was me as well. I could sleep anywhere, anytime. But the other thing is also that I think there are people who say that, I can’t function without sleep. I need my sleep. I love my sleep.

Natasha: And there are others who are like, yeah, I can get on with it. It’s fine. I think you and I feel like if you’re the type who has told themselves for years that, oh, I can’t function without sleep, which is what I used to tell myself, and that’s why I used to sleep very adequately because I’d be like, oh, I need my nine hours and I need like my naps in between.

Natasha: I feel like if you’ve spent years telling yourself that you can’t function without sleep and then a stressful situation comes that requires you to compromise with sleep or where your sleep gets affected, perhaps you are more susceptible to then developing anxiety around it, right? Because you’ve told yourself that you don’t know how to kind of function without it.

Natasha: So maybe it’s also personality or like prior mindsets.

Martin: It’s like the more important we deem something in our lives, quite naturally, the more we’re gonna focus on it. And if it deviates from whatever we want it to be doing that’s gonna immediately generate a lot of concern.

Martin: And where we get trapped with insomnia and sleep is really, it’s beyond our direct and permanent control. So it, it kind of backfires, that additional effort. We might not be able to control the thoughts, we might not be able to change the fact that we see it as something important.

Martin: It’s okay to see it as something important, but it’s our actions around that. The more we try to make sleep happen the more we can end up struggling with it.

Natasha: Yeah, and I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that now there is so much literature and all the things you can do to improve your sleep, right?

Natasha: So there is this perpetuation of this illusion that somehow sleep is something you can entirely control and engineer. And I think I was doing so much of that as well.

Natasha: You go through this strange, five stages of grief or something through that period of night where, you just, at some point you’re very angry. At some point you’re very depressed with your situation because it’s also this, it is a strange experience of being wide awake when the whole world is sleeping.

Natasha: It’s different from being a night owl and it’s different from someone who’s, voluntarily working or relaxing or gaming or whatever.

Natasha: You are alert and exhausted. So because you’re alert, you can’t go to sleep and because you’re exhausted, you can’t actually do anything productive. So you’re literally just sitting awake and not being able to do anything and not being able to relax.

Natasha: And I think that in that whole process you do end up, of course you start googling feverishly and I’ve done everything right. I think over the last two years, before, before I met you, I think I’ve done everything I must have done. Like the primrose oil, the lavender, the magnesium, the chamomile tea, the Yeah, like I think the white noise and I’ve done, I think you try everything and the more things you’re throwing at it, the worse it’s getting.

Natasha: And I think every failure after you’ve tried something and that failure is even harder to reconcile. But some of that comes from the fact that you’re reaching out for answers into Google and Google is giving you some solutions. It’s not telling you that, the way to, to get to sleep is just to let it go.

Natasha: It’s not telling you that, it’s actually telling you, do this, and then you start doing it.

Martin: The information out there tends to be about doing more, it’s, if there’s a problem, do this. And with sleep, it’s all about doing less. If anyone has a recollection in their own experience of a time when sleep wasn’t an issue or a concern, what did you do to experience sleep in that way?

Martin: And it was nothing. It was going to bed. It was getting out of bed, living your life, and it just took care of itself. But then we just exposed to this proliferation of advice and information and hacks and gadgets and gizmos and this and this. And when we are feeling stuck it’s completely understandable that we are gonna be looking for a solution.

Martin: And almost everything in life, the solution is do this or do more, put more effort in. Try harder. That sleep is one of those outliers. And we can so easily through no fault of our own, get tangled up in that quick sound, so the more we fight it. The more we struggle with it, the more we try and escape that quick sound, the deeper we find ourselves sinking.

Natasha: Yeah. You said this and I think I, this is printed in my brain because I remember in one of our first sessions you said exactly this, you said that most things in life respond well to effort, but sleep doesn’t, sleep does not respond well to effort. And because we all have such a bias for action and effort, you think that if there’s something I can do.

Natasha: What happened to me was like one night I didn’t, I think again, my husband, I woke him up at 4:00 AM because I was like, I think I’m having a heart attack.

Natasha: Because, ’cause you are just palpitating now obviously your body’s completely dysfunctioning because you’re exhausted and you haven’t slept. And so I was sweating and I was feeling this like pinch in my heart and he got really worried.

Natasha: So I said, okay, let me just go and buy sleeping pills. And I didn’t know what that was. So I went to this pharmacy and I was like do you have sleeping pills? And they were like you need a prescription for that. Because in India you don’t need a prescription for a lot of things. A lot of things you get over the counter, but hang on, this one is one that we do need a prescription for.

Natasha: So then I started texting you can only get prescriptions from, obviously a licensed doctor or a psychiatrist. And I didn’t know any, so I texted one, a friend saying, do you know? And then she said yes. And so she connected me with somebody. But they said that you have to, you have to have a session with a therapist.

Natasha: For her to for them to evaluate you. And I was desperate, right? Because I hadn’t slept all night. And I said, listen, I just, I need something to knock me out and I don’t need therapy. I don’t need a therapist. I’m fine. Literally the only problem in my life right now is that for some reason I’ve developed this mysterious inability to sleep.

Natasha: And, but they of course, had the responsible practice was that I should talk to a therapist. So I did. And of course, at the end of the hour she was very sweet and she said it does seem you are fairly self-aware and your relationship with your partner is very good and everything is fine and maybe you just need medication.

Natasha: And I was almost like, yes, I told you so then she put me through a psychiatrist. And that person, but that was the interesting thing, right? When I went to the psychiatrist and it was, she spoke to me literally for 10 minutes, and this was on Zoom because we were still in the pandemic.

Natasha: And yeah, she was like okay, are you anxious about something? And you, you mentioned one or two things because if you are living life and if you’re adulting, of course you’re anxious about a few things. So I said a few things and she was like, okay, great. And here’s an antidepressant, which kind of surprised me because I’d never taken antidepressants before.

Natasha: And I have studied psychology, so I do understand SSRIs. So I asked her, I said, oh, why are you giving me an antidepressant? She was like basically this is, it’s just going to relax you. So I said, fine.

Natasha: So I took that, but I wasn’t happy about it because I wasn’t happy taking it. And I think what also what happened was I started taking the antidepressant for a couple of weeks. And predictably. So I slept okay on the first couple of times because it was a sort of a placebo, right? You had this like safety feeling that I’m taking a pill and I’m fine.

Natasha: And then I think I was traveling to Delhi for work and it, I had my pill and it didn’t work. And I was up all night and I had to work the entire day. And then the same thing happened the next day. I came back to the hotel, I was exhausted and I was like, I’m going to just absolutely crash.

Natasha: I think I fell asleep in the cab on the way to the hotel, but I popped my pill. I got into bed and I couldn’t sleep. And then I was like, okay, this medicine is not working. So I remember being, that, that makes you really worried because you see, I went to a doctor gave me something and now this is not working.

Natasha: So then I came back and then I tried different things. When I got back home, I remember that night I went to bed and my husband Suraj was sitting next to me, and that was very comforting. So then began this whole era of me saying, okay, I need you to sleep in the bed with me, right?

Natasha: You have to be in bed with me. So whether you are reading or whatever you’re doing, you need to be in bed. Because I wasn’t sure the medication was working. And so I stopped taking that, but then I didn’t have any other crutch, so I said, okay, you have to be in bed with me. And so he would have to get into bed and sometimes he likes to sleep a bit later and I get tired sooner.

Natasha: It was adding these layers of something is wrong with me to my sense of self, right? Because you’re like, first you can’t sleep, then you, now you need your husband to come and lie with you. And you’re affecting his life as a result.

Natasha: And then I became very averse to traveling as a result. So I said, I don’t want to, I don’t wanna go anywhere because I I don’t know, I, I don’t wanna sleep alone, so I don’t wanna go on business trips and I don’t want to go, but more than business trips, because those couldn’t be avoided.

Natasha: I was almost like, I don’t wanna go on personal instead of holidays with my girlfriends, and I just don’t wanna go on a holiday with somebody where if I’m not sure where I would have to sleep alone by myself. So I was supposed to go for this hike and we would go, we were gonna sleep in a dorm. And I was so terrified of the idea of being like, absolutely wide awake at 3:00 AM in a dormitory full of girls, I don’t know, which was not me at all.

Natasha: ’cause that, that I was not that type of person ever. So I opted out of that. I said, no, I’m not gonna do that. And it just started adding up right where I stopped making evening plans because I said, oh, if it’s too late, and then I get home late and then it I won’t have enough time to wind down and get to bed.

Natasha: So I think all of this was happening and even when I was traveling. In 2022, I remember we went for this, I had this huge event in September or so. And it had been like eight months since my issues with sleep. But I had to go to Bombay for this event for a whole week. And my plan was that I’m basically going to night cap it through I’m going to have a drink every night and then I’m going to somehow knock myself out and just get through the entire week.

Natasha: And that’s exactly what I did. Which, in hindsight, that’s, it’s just such a terrible strategy. But there was no other way to imagine being able to do things like this. So I feel like this was carrying on and I had sort of, because I’d already been to a psychiatrist, one I once, I didn’t consider going back to anyone because what I was very aware of was that I really wasn’t struggling with anything in my life in a big way other than sleep, so I. And that was the other thing. ’cause again, anytime you ever told anyone or even hinted to somebody that you find it hard to sleep, the first question they’re like, oh, are you stressed out about something? Or or and that can almost start grating you. ’cause you’re like, no, I’m not stressed about anything.

Natasha: I’m not stressed, I’m not per se stressed and I, but this thing that, you’re losing sleep because there must be some something underlying and something subconscious and you’re like, no. The only thing that’s conscious, subconscious and all pervasive is sleep anxiety. And I think the fact that sleep anxiety, again, is its own category of anxiety, of, it’s a type of anxiety that perhaps happens.

Natasha: And there are no other underlying hidden, Freudian reasons for why you’re not being able to sleep. You’re really, you’re just having some, you’ve developed a strange relationship with sleep and your bed. So you are passing out on your couch and then the minute you hit the bed you are like wide awake, so I think this thing was something that I have only processed a little bit in hindsight and through, conversations with you and understanding this whole situation. But like throughout 2022, it was just, it was some, it was a hack, just hacking my way through it. And because things were working out really well with having my partner in bed with me I was like, okay, fine, this is fine.

Natasha: How bad is it? And even through 23, I think like 23 actually was very stable because like I said, whenever I was traveling, I had become that person where I said, okay, I’m not gonna sleep when I travel. But even then, I think there was. There was a, I remember again, I went for a team retreat and I was up the entire night, like the sun came up and I just got outta bed and we all had, and this was this big strategy retreat, which you had to talk a lot of strategy.

Natasha: And that was the, and I was confused about whether I should tell my teammates that I didn’t sleep all night. And so I, but I decided to, ’cause I said I can’t, I’d come to that point where I was like, this is just who I am. This is going to be forever. So I have to start telling people that I find it hard and I’m, I have lovely colleagues and they’re all wonderful people.

Natasha: So I said, maybe I can trust them and I could just tell them that I couldn’t sleep all night, because, if I’m spacing out in the middle of the dates, it’s only fair that they know. And I did tell them and and they were very kind about it, but I think I was so tired.

Natasha: At the end of that day, I remember, and I was so terrified, Martin, that I was not gonna be able to sleep again. And so I actually asked my one of my teammates who I’m really close with, and I really like her. And I told her, I said, and this is gonna sound very strange ’cause we were all living in a house.

Natasha: So it was nice. It was like a large, huge villa. And I said, is it okay if I sleep with you? And she was like, yeah, sure. And she was very sweet about it. And so I actually had went and I slept in her room with her. And I think that there were parts of me that was so embarrassed by this, but also so helpless about it and feeling like what is happening.

Natasha: Whenever you tell people they, I mean they are sympathetic, but either they don’t understand or it’s the sort of you’re stressed.

Natasha: And again, I think I was talking to someone and they recommended the psychiatrist and this therapist to me. So then I went to her and she prescribed me a whole other set of SSRIs and anti-anxiety medication. And again, I took it for a while and it does make you feel slightly different. So I think I started feeling a little bit. Not okay on some of that medication.

Natasha: Especially, I think the worst experience which I’ve had is taking medication, going to bed, not being able to sleep, and then you are waking up with half, slept with this half digested medicine in your brain and you’re just getting through the next day because you know you, ’cause you have to.

Natasha: All of us end up going through all these rabbit holes because there is no direction and the experts are actually giving you wrong advice and Google is definitely leading you in the wrong direction. And then you’re just stuck with all of the, this sense of helplessness and this huge sense of the fact that something is broken inside you.

Natasha: And it’s funny, because I do actually work in the mental health field and there is a lot that’s said about the stigma associated with depression, with anxiety because even though there has been so much awareness building and conversation still, if your team members or someone in your organization is going through depression and they’re not able to perform, very few people can actually come and say, this is what’s happening to me when it’s happening.

Natasha: They can talk about it once they have figured it out and gotten over it. And in a strange way, like insomnia is like that because if I hadn’t slept all night and if I slept at 4:00 AM and I woke up at seven and I had a call at nine 30 in the morning and I had to cancel it, or I had a call at seven in the morning, which I had to cancel.

Natasha: I couldn’t be like, I’m sorry, I have to cancel this call because I couldn’t sleep all night. I would say I’m sick, or something else. But it sounded absurd to see, it almost sounds like you’re not a, you’re not a capable functioning adult if you say oh, I couldn’t sleep. And I think that sense that something that everybody else is just doing so effortlessly and everybody else is just doing without thinking and you’re just not able to do.

Natasha: And it’s so basic. It’s, I would look at my son he’d just pass out. It feels so basic. I think that was the hardest part, like now in hindsight, right? It was of course the tiredness and all of the other things. But this, the psychological experience of going through insomnia, I think is very difficult.

Martin: I completely agree with you. Just the way you were describing it there, you could tell how insomnia or sleep just started to become more of your identity. It was almost like taking over more of who you are. And in a way you were just losing this independence, this independence, this sense of agency that you have over your own life, because so many of your actions became geared towards protecting sleep, avoiding insomnia compensating for difficult nights, all of which is completely understandable.

Martin: And when all of that stuff just doesn’t feel like it’s proving to be a long-term solution, it can then feel really mysterious, right?

Martin: It can feel like there’s something uniquely wrong. There’s something going on here that is different to what other people might be experiencing, and then we can get all of that kind of self-judgment and maybe some shame and some embarrassment and the negative self-talk, and we can be really harden ourselves that just piles it on and makes things even more difficult.

Natasha: Yeah. I don’t wanna start like blaming, Google and blaming the sort of sleep culture, but I think the thing is that scientists the people who are closest to the science are the most humble about the conclusions. But the health industry is the exact opposite, right? There are just lots of claims and there’s lots of stuff.

Natasha: And now the algorithms just push it to you because for sure at some point my algorithm figured out that I had, and probably very quickly that I was anxious about this.

Natasha: So everything that I was being prompted. Was just like this about sleep and that about sleep and women in sleep and something and constantly actually the reverse, which was the extreme benefits. And so everything from like longevity to dementia to osteoporosis, every single thing is linked to sleep.

Natasha: And of course it is, in the sense that, but it’s also linked to diet and it’s also linked to happiness and it’s also linked to genetics. And it’s linked to a hundred thousand things.

Natasha: Once the algorithm finds you and finds your weakness, it starts then. And then I actually actively stopped looking at any of that content. ’cause I very quickly realized what it would do to me, right? In the sense that it would just make you feel even worse about where you were. And I think that, that’s one big part of sleep anxiety as well, because you are convinced that you are like hurting yourself.

Natasha: You’re convinced that you’re becoming very unhealthy and that you’re going to die, because because you’re not being able to sleep well and that, your brain is going to deteriorate very quickly and everything is just gonna deteriorate.

Natasha: I do know people who sleep badly and they run marathons and they just it doesn’t matter, like they just live their lives despite the fact that they sleep badly and they continue to sleep badly and they continue to live their lives. But I do think that there are others. And then me especially I was not being able to reconcile these two things, that I would not sleep well, but I would just get on with my life. I think the, the sense of the control and the pop science was also hurting quite a bit.

Martin: When we have a problem, we wanna look for a solution, right? And there’s just so much out there. And I think there is also a lot of misinformation and misleading information out there because that’s what gets the attention. If someone writes an article that just said Sleep, it’s important, you can’t control it.

Martin: No one’s gonna read that, right? But if someone comes up with a headline that says 12 Sleep Hacks that guarantee eight hours of sleep, or 12 things you can do tonight to prevent cancer ever showing up in your life, loads of people are gonna read that.

Natasha: Over those two years I did lots, I accomplished lots. A huge part of life was continuing.

Natasha: But the point was that I was not entirely myself and that’s the bit that I was missing. It had become a new mutation on my identity, the sleep thing, right? So 99% of my identity was still the same, but there was this new 1% that had just emerged from somewhere.

Natasha: You’re not accepting your situation. You’re quite distressed by it. That’s another thing that comes with insomnia.

Martin: It becomes more powerful the more we try to resist it. You can find yourself acting in ways that don’t really reflect who you are or who you want to be.

Natasha: Actions are a powerful way to signal to your brain what, where your attitude lies, so I think that sometimes you can’t just intellectualize your way out of a problem.

Natasha: Like sometimes you have to change the way you’re behaving. In that sense, this kind of almost subterranean signal to your brain that your attitude towards something has changed because now your body’s doing different things than what it was doing.

Martin: You’d already tried so many things. You had a strategy, a roadmap that you were following with kind of mixed success.

Martin: What made you think it would be productive or there would be an opportunity here for you to get something from us working together?

Natasha: What happened in 2024, which is when we met, was that everything just started failing. And I don’t know why necessarily. I think we went on this holiday for New Years in 20 23 we went to this holiday.

Natasha: And at that holiday, our entire day routine was starting very late. And we were not sleeping before 12 or 1230 every single night as a family. And I think because we’d lived that kind of routine for about two weeks, when we got back home early 24 I think I was like, I have to go to work, so I should get to bed at night.

Natasha: And obviously your body was in attuned to sleeping at nine. And and then that, and this time I went to bed. My husband and I went to bed. He promptly fell asleep. I don’t know his bo his body can sleep as much anytime. I dunno, it just doesn’t seem to bother him. But I couldn’t. And then there was that like, oh shit moment, right?

Natasha: That, oh my God, my last standing hack has stopped working. And there was all this legacy of failure as well in the past. And so then I think basically I went through a couple of weeks where I, it was exactly as bad as your peak struggles where you’re just not sleeping before you had figured out your placebo or your hack or your safety behavior before any of that, ’cause once I figured some of those out in 22 and 23, then there was a whole period of stability. But again, I was back in this tumult and we had to go for, to celebrate a function for the same sweet teammate of mine who had shared her hotel bed with me. And she, her sister was getting married and we went and we flew to another town for this.

Natasha: And again, basically all of us landed. We got to the hotel really late. Everyone’s exhausted, husband and child pass out. I don’t sleep at all. At 5:00 AM I think he woke up to get a glass of water. And he saw, and I was reading and he said, oh, why are you up? And I said, I haven’t slept all night. And so I think for him, he was like, oh my God.

Natasha: What is, this is bad. Because, I think he could really empathize saying You must be exhausted. And I was tired and I was just, I was so upset because I’d come for this wedding and I’d been really looking forward to it. And I didn’t feel like participating in anything because like literally my body, my brain, everything was hurting.

Natasha: So he then said we should go to, he found some sleep clinic and we went there when we got back. When we got back home again, it was the same, it was the same thing. So again, I went to the sleep clinic, the doctor prescribed me some other, like tricylic or some other cocktail of drugs. And even as the doctor was talking, and this was like a neurologist who literally told me, and I have no issues saying that, this is what he said to me.

Natasha: He was like, oh, that’s really strange. Oh, you should be able to sleep, but if you’re not, here are some pills. And if these don’t work then you’re going to be on sleeping pills your whole life. There’s no other solution. He said that. He was like, oh, come back to me in a month because if this doesn’t work, then, and he literally shook his head and said, oh, then there’s no hope.

Natasha: And then you’re just gonna have to be having sleeping pills for the rest of your life. And even as he was seeing it, I think something in me just got really pissed off. I was like, this is ridiculous. He didn’t even listen to my story.

Natasha: It was just like, oh, you have sleep problems? Okay, here you go, here’s some drugs. So as soon as we got home, I told Suraj, I was like I don’t think he, he doesn’t know what he is talking about at all. I have actually had this situation for the last two years and I don’t think he knows what he’s saying.

Natasha: And Suraj of course, trying to be the very like, supportive person. He said no, you should not. Don’t reject the doctor’s thing, just take the medication. You will be fine. And sure as hell, it didn’t work. Like after three, four days it stopped working.

Natasha: And then basically I think I, in one of my, fever dreams at 2:00 AM 3:00 AM like as I was awake I was just typing into Spotify ’cause I was listening to different podcasts to to keep myself entertained at night.

Natasha: And I was like, oh, there must be some podcast. Somebody must have talked about insomnia. And I typed that into Spotify, and then I found your podcast, and then I started listening to it. And Martin, for me, I was so desperate by then, I was so tired and so desperate that I said that I won’t even bother listening to all these episodes.

Natasha: And, piecing together the wisdom. I said, I’m just going to write to this person and I’m just gonna directly reach out to him. Because at that point, I was very sure that I really needed like somebody to work with me, somebody to talk to. I couldn’t do some sort of self-paced, self-help. I really had to feel like I had shared my side of the story with somebody and then they understood and then they were going to kinda help me.

Natasha: So that’s how I actually, I found you. And that’s what brought me. So in some sense, it was the ultimate failure of everything that got me here.

Martin: When we started working together what kinda concepts did we explore or what kind of changes did you make that were different, that you feel helped you move forward and start emerging from this struggle?

Natasha: One of the things that I really appreciated was that you actually asked me to list out my own strengths, right? And I think when you did that, one of the things that you noted was the fact that I do actually lead with intellect to some extent. And so for me, being able to understand like psychologically and cognitively understand things.

Natasha: And once I see them in a new light, I think that’s very powerful. So that was the first thing where I think I still, this was like, I still remember our first conversation right where you said that sleep doesn’t respond to effort. And that line, it just almost like immediately, I think I just completely changed my behavior almost immediately in response to that.

Natasha: I remember you mentioned in the early days itself was the fact that you can sleep really badly so you can have a bad night, but you could have a good day and you can have a good night and you can have a bad day. And so I started attending to that.

Natasha: And I actually started noticing that was true. Like I could have had a very bad night, but the next day many things went well. Many things went my way, and the day was pretty effortless, even if I was slightly tired and whatever.

Natasha: And then there were other times where I’d slept perfectly well and I was like, whatever, restless or fidgety or the day had gone badly. And so this dissociation of sleep is this thing that, produces this perfect day for you the next day, and you are just like this perfect person the next day.

Natasha: I think for me the dissociation of those two things was also very important from, again, a kind of intellectual lens.

Natasha: And then of course there was the whole bit around how do you change your actions, right? What will you do differently? And why I mentioned these two reframing sort of points is that I think they help you take those actions because sometimes you can’t take an action without conviction.

Natasha: If you’re not convinced or if you don’t understand why you’re taking the action may not yield very much, but if you do understand why you’re taking that action, it helps.

Natasha: I was always so conscious about like setting up breakfast meetings. I would never set up breakfast meetings. I had stopped doing that ’cause I was like no. I don’t know.

Natasha: I started setting up breakfast meetings. I started like setting up dinners. I said, that’s fine. I’ll deal with it like however it goes. Calendaring your life the way you would if you did not have any issues with sleep. There was perhaps something powerful about that.

Martin: It sounds like in terms of that perspective, really when we were working together, it was just a process of teasing out what you already knew, what was already inside you. This idea that sleep doesn’t need or want or require all of these kind of efforts or attention or rules or rituals or accommodations, it just wants to take care of itself.

Martin: And as we explored that, you were able to reflect on your own experience and you realized, huh, yeah, that is the case. Like my experience has been telling me that, but because I’ve, my superpower of problem solving is the dominant force right now that has almost been clouded in a way. And you got this pressure to continue trying to problem solve, continue putting effort in, even though the experience says that might not be useful for you.

Martin: And then the second approach was the actions you started to chip away at that power and the influence that sleep was having by focusing more on actions that served you rather than serving insomnia. And as you did that it kinda lost some of its power and influence over you.

Martin: So maybe in turn you might have been less inclined to put that effort in, and so it becomes a cycle again, but maybe a more positive cycle compared to before.

Natasha: Yeah, very true. I also of course, owe a debt of gratitude to K-Dramas because I one of the things that we discussed and we talked about was also like, I think nighttime awakening is a very unpleasant experience, right?

Natasha: And that’s the other thing that people who struggle with insomnia will talk about that. Just the experience of being awake at night is for some reason really unpleasant. But if you flip that and if you start looking at it as some sort of invitation to binge watch K-Dramas, and for me it was fine because you the day is very busy and you’re, you’ve got children, you’ve got work, and so you can’t exactly just watch silly television all the time.

Natasha: So for me, I tried to, I started thinking that so I actually intentionally found certain series and. I said, okay, I’m gonna watch these at night and I’m not gonna watch them through the day or at any on the weekends. I’m not going to and I’m gonna watch this at night. And I, and the other thing I told myself was also this idea of, a little bit of like sleep consolidation, I think.

Natasha: Which did help with the hyper arousal part because I think that’s so physiological. It had to be trained out. Was this fact that no matter what, I’m not gonna sleep before 1130 or 12 even, so I’d start watching like my TV at, nine 30 and then I almost used to feel, I was almost looking forward to the TV time.

Natasha: ’cause I said I have two and a half hours to watch tv. I have so much like time, actually, I don’t have to turn it off. I could just watch the next episode and the next episode. Because, I’d get up and I’d make myself a beverage and I’d come back, I’d make myself a snack, so it became this I have this whole day, which is relentless, and then I have these three hours that are just mine.

Natasha: So looking at it from that point of view did help because once I told myself that I’m not gonna try to sleep before 12 I think it helped because then, yeah, by the time it was 12, I was quite tired and I hadn’t spent two or three hours in bed trying to sleep, working myself up, on the kind of arousal lad because when you’re tossing and turning, you get kinda worked up in a way that’s very different from when you’re just watching like Korean tv and then you’re genuinely tired.

Natasha: And then by 12, 12 30, I was so there were many nights where I started successfully falling asleep at the time that, I decided to fall asleep at, which was 12 or 1230. And I think that also helped quite a bit because this idea that your relationship, like I was saying, that relationship with your bed literally and your body’s own cues that, when it lies down, it starts to feel like this.

Natasha: I think it suddenly started changing because of accepting the night. I am accepting the fact that the night is going to be long, and so why don’t you make it nice?

Martin: Your relationship to being awake at night had changed through your actions. So even if sleep was exactly the same, in other words, you never fell asleep before, let’s say three o’clock in the morning.

Martin: The difference is one time you might have been in bed tossing and turning, really struggling, battling away until three o’clock in the morning. This alternative approach involved watching some TV shows that you like doing stuff that’s more pleasant, setting aside time for yourself making it a more useful way to spend that time awake and that in turn.

Martin: Although there’s obviously no guarantee that’s gonna make sleep happen because it’s out of your control. It just makes that time awake more pleasant. It doesn’t get you so exhausted and tangled up in that struggle. And it can also help train your brain that maybe being awake at night isn’t such a threat that we need to be on action stations to try and protect you against.

Natasha: Exactly that.

Martin: What would you say if someone is listening to this, and we’re talking about making being awake more pleasant, we’re talking about accepting that sleep might be out of your control, that the difficult thoughts and feelings might be out of your control. But someone’s listening to this and they’re thinking, I’m not interested in any of that.

Martin: I just want to sleep. I don’t want to. Read a book or watch tv, I need to get rid of these thoughts and these feelings. I don’t wanna learn how to deal with them. I just wanna sleep. How do you respond to that?

Natasha: I would say that’s a perfectly understandable reaction. So the first thing is that, that’s a completely understandable thing to feel when you’re going through this.

Natasha: And I felt exactly that. I think I also had this, you have to go through your arc because you do go through this like resistance and anger and you feel very, yeah, you feel resentful at the fact that you’re being asked to accept something that you don’t like at all.

Natasha: But, I think there is, again I think humans are very resilient in the way that at some point I think you realize that there is no choice. There is no option but to accept because not accepting this is not serving you very well. And so that was the other thing that I think this feeling that you should not be having negative emotions about insomnia.

Natasha: That’s not true at all. Like of course you’re going to feel bad. Recovering from insomnia requires you to not think that sleep is important? No, it’s none of that. Because of course you, you’re not gonna think sleep is not important or you’re not gonna value sleep.

Natasha: You do value it and it is important. And it is. It’s perfectly fine to exist in that contradiction of, knowing that this is important, wanting it, desiring it, but not becoming completely agitated. I think because that’s the really important part. How do you find routines and rituals, and how do you find maybe just the first level of acceptance.

Natasha: That’ll help you feel a little less agitated. And then I think that, these are positively reinforcing loops because when you experience that slight, like release from not feeling very agitated, from that first level of acceptance, you accept a little further, and then you practice acceptance and it gets better and better.

Natasha: And the funny thing is, it is true. There are times of course, and I am sure that many of your other like people might have said the same thing, but when you start sleeping better again, there’s a part of you that’s I should not be noticing this. I should not be noticing that I’m sleeping better, that this is working because I don’t wanna notice it.

Natasha: A part of you is noticing the fact that, okay, I’m relaxing and I’m, I’ve let go. I’ve just let go now. So I’m gonna watch TV and I’m just gonna stay awake and I’m gonna embrace whatever this is. And then you’re like, and it tends to work. And the more you do that, the more it works, so I think it’s a com. It’s this whole like positive loop.

Martin: All thoughts and all feelings are okay. So much of our struggle can come from this belief that we shouldn’t have certain thoughts or we shouldn’t have certain feelings, and that can just set us up for a struggle.

Martin: The alternative way forward is to acknowledge all of our thoughts and our feelings as normal valid human. That as human beings we experience the full range. Some make us feel good, some don’t. Some are useful, some aren’t. Some are true, some maybe not. We have the power to decide how we choose to respond to them, and I think that’s really what you’ve encapsulated so well because it’s when we respond with resistance, which is completely understandable, it feeds into it and it gives that stuff more power and more influence, and it just gets as tangled up.

Martin: If we’re feeling stuck, if things feel mysterious, perhaps there’s an opportunity here to respond in a different way with a little bit more acknowledgement, acceptance, and letting go, as you said, not holding this all so tightly just opening up to it a little bit more.

Martin: If nothing else, perhaps that would just free up a little bit of energy and attention that otherwise would’ve been consumed by battle for you to do more of the stuff that really matters to you.

Natasha: Yeah, and if anyone’s listening to this, I think they’re already halfway there in the sense that they have at least found something that’s giving them, that’s helping them square their own experience with some amount of knowledge. And at least, like I said, for me it was really helpful. Like the hardest part was all the misinformation, like when you are being, when you are consuming something that’s not actually helpful for insomnia and then, and so it’s either lack of information or it’s misinformation.

Natasha: But I think once you get the right information, even if there’s resistance initially, resistance gets spent, eventually you are spent, right? Because how much are you gonna struggle? Because you will resist, and you will resist. And then eventually, if it’s not working, you will be tired and you will let your guard down.

Natasha: And at that point, at least you’ve got the right information and you are ready to receive it. The problem is when there’s just no information and then you just continue in these loops of confusion. So I think for me, awareness generation is really important.

Martin: I remember when we were working together, you had this concern about acceptance. How do we achieve acceptance without it feel like you are in a position of helplessness and you’re giving up, versus how do I achieve acceptance with a sense of power of individual empowerment?

Martin: And that can be a bit difficult to wrap your head around, right?

Natasha: It is. I remember writing to you and saying that I’m not feeling like I’m choosing acceptance. I’m being forced to accept, in which case it’s not acceptance, it’s just something that’s forced on you.

Natasha: But the thing is, like I said, I think that resistance and that friction was required for me to get over the hump as well. And there are people who may perhaps come to acceptance easily and there are others who may not. And I think both reactions or like a whole spectrum of reactions is perfectly natural.

Natasha: What I do feel is from my own journey also, is that eventually, like acceptance is inevitable because, the friction doesn’t yield anything that’s helpful in this situation. And so the only thing is that, like I said, having somebody to talk through on when you’re going through this, having someone to talk through with is important because, some of the words and the reframing and the perspectives, they’re there at least.

Natasha: And it’s like when your acceptance portal finally opens. It’s available for that information to go inside. If there was nothing there, then you may accept it, but from a place of helplessness or sorrow or just, I don’t know. And then you would have to work a lot harder perhaps to generate solutions and kind of perspectives for yourself.

Natasha: But if there is some perspective, initially the door is closed and it’s not going in, but that’s okay because at some point the door will open and then all of that stuff that’s waiting to be heard and understood will go inside.

Martin: Yeah. There’s value in every part of the experience, even when it feels like we’re really struggling, there’s always something to be learned from that, and it might not feel like it’s useful at that time, but at some point in the future, we will serve some kind of value as a learning experience or something we can pick and choose from to help us move forward in a different way or to keep us moving forward in the way we want to be moving.

Natasha: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true.

Martin: What did progress look like for you on this journey? Did you find that as you were starting to get this sense of independence back, sleep just suddenly magically transformed and you were having great nights of sleep and every single night was better than the last?

Natasha: I wish I could say that. There is no such thing as perfect sleep. And no one is sleeping perfectly. I mean, you may have less sleep for multiple reasons, right? You’re traveling and then there’s other disruptions and someone is sick and so on, so forth.

Natasha: So I think, I think the important, the huge tangible change, I think and it’s not a change that, let’s say that if you just looked at the surface of my life in terms of like, how productive is she and how active is she? And how creative is she? I think a lot of that is probably looks the same because you are still doing things.

Natasha: But I think what did change, one of the things that did change Yes, is that I think this idea of traveling definitely came back for me. Traveling for leisure. Not just work, but traveling for leisure. And so I did actually travel last year a couple of times for leisure. And so that was one small change.

Natasha: Yeah, like having late nights and it’s totally fine having early mornings and it’s totally fine. And just so that sense of like release with your own. Calendar and not having anxiety about it, so I think for me, there are, of course, even today, there are several times where, you will get, six hours or five hours, because maybe you’re traveling.

Natasha: But I’ve noticed that not only I don’t talk about it, like that’s the other thing, right? I don’t, I’m not talking about it with like my husband or my sister or anybody that, gosh, like I wouldn’t see that talk about it at all because I’m yeah, it’s fine, I’ll go to bed tonight and tomorrow or whatever.

Natasha: And even if I’m, even if I’m like, I’ve got three straight like events and for some reason the three straight nights I’m going to be pulling like late nights, I’m okay. I’m not very stressed about that. So I think basically there’s a certain sense of relaxation and I will say that, look, this journey is not linear, right?

Natasha: And I suppose like the longer you’ve struggled with it or the harder you’ve struggled with it, and the more intensely you have felt about it, like it is gonna take you some time to feel like this isn’t a theme in your life at all. And like for me, for instance, even like this showing up here to talk about it and to have it recorded, there was for a long time I thought that I wanted to write about it actually for last year, early last year, I started wanting to, when I experienced a lot of these benefits, I said I should write a whole piece.

Natasha: And then I just couldn’t because I said that, I don’t want to jinx it. And so there were these lingering feelings, right? Saying that if I talk about it, if I, and if I go out and announce that I’m fine and I had this problem and I no longer have it I don’t wanna say that. But then, over time it just faded away.

Natasha: Even that, even holding onto that kind of goes away. Time actions, consistency and of course this underlying reframing is the journey. It happens in fits and starts, but I think eventually you do get to a point where. Your relationship, like you said, the relationship with sleep changes.

Natasha: One of the things I do appreciate about this journey has been that I have actually learned a lot about sleep. There is no perfect, there is no eight hour, eight and a half, seven or whatever. There is no, you have to find your rhythm and the more you dissociate with the sleep dogma that has become a culture I think the better off everyone is.

Martin: In terms of the timeline here, how long would you say that it took you to get to a point where you felt like you’d left the struggle behind?

Natasha: I think there was this whole period of, there, there was also like micro progress and then there was like a little bit of a slide back and there was frustrations. Like I said, it was non-linear. So I would say that it was probably only by the summer, so about maybe four months or so, four or five months.

Natasha: And I did actually start scheduling like work trips and travel and so on so forth. And the more I did that, I think by the time summer rolled around, I was starting to feel like I could plan my days and plan my weeks and plan my time the way I wanted to. And yeah, and it’s been like a steady stabilization from that point all the way, till now.

Natasha: I do wanna again stress that when somebody says that they no longer struggle with insomnia, it doesn’t mean that they sleep like nine hours or eight hours every single night consistently all the time. That is not the, that’s not what resolution looks like.

Natasha: Resolution is you’re not controlled by it.

Martin: It’s very rare that someone tells me that they’re able to change everything and transform their lives in a few days or a few weeks. And it often requires ongoing practice too, right? There’s ups and downs.

Martin: We’re always gonna get pulled back into a struggle, whether it’s with sleep or insomnia or anything else that goes on in our lives. It’s just that awareness when that’s happening and being able to change course to refocus on actions that matter to us and to live our lives and allow sleep, the opportunity to take care of itself rather than trying to fix sleep so that we can live our lives.

Martin: If we can just flip that around, it can just be such a transformative way of approaching this.

Natasha: Yeah, I agree.

Martin: Your whole learning experience, your whole journey maybe comes down to this realization through action that you have the ultimate power over your life. And as you reinforce that, sleep just becomes a thing. It doesn’t just, it doesn’t become the most important thing in your life when you are not resisting it so much when you’re just accepting sleep is gonna turn up and do whatever it wants or insomnia’s gonna turn up, do whatever it wants.

Natasha: And you do start sleeping much better. I think the listeners especially need to hear that if they’re going through it right now, they don’t want to, feel like the takeaway of this is that, oh, you’re just gonna reach some radical acceptance, but your sleep is not gonna change.

Natasha: The truth is that the sleep does change and you do feel rested and you do sleep more and you get back to sleeping normally. The idea is to just not expect that. That every, you’re going to be in some sleep paradise all the time because that’s just, that’s not even normal life, and I think by the time, if you’re going through a lot of insomnia, what you want is that you want sleep paradise.

Natasha: You just want something where every day you’re just knocked out cold beautifully because you develop that kind of a, sensitivity to sleep. But once you get over it, you realize that most of the times you’re sleeping well, sometimes you’re not. And irrespective, it’s just not on your mind anymore.

Martin: Natasha, I want to thank you for all the time you’ve taken to share your experience with us. I do have one last question for you. If someone is listening and they just feel like they cannot end the struggle with insomnia, that there’s nothing they can do, what would you say to them?

Natasha: The first thing I would really say is that it’s understandable to feel that. And it’s hard. It’s very hard feeling that, it’s a really hard place to be in when you are feeling like that. But I would say that there are many people now who have figured out how to come out of this.

Natasha: It’s not a pharmacological technical solution, it’s something that’s inside you, everybody has it. Your sleep is not broken. Your brain is not broken. Like nothing about you is broken. It’s a phase and I think like everything this will pass and some of just a little bit of intentionality and just to some amount of, perhaps, hopefully perspective and reframing and then just changing your actions a little bit and a combination of all of that and patience will get you through it, so I think that’s probably what I’d like, anybody listening who’s struggling to take away.

Martin: Thank you so much again for coming on.

Natasha: Yeah. Martin, thank you so much. Thank you for what you do.

Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me.

Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep.