I think anytime we get into dichotomous thinking we're in a little bit of a danger zone when we think it has to be one thing or another thing. There's this tension between college needing to be worth it in terms of measures that tend to be more financial versus being worth it for society for the common good. I think this gets back to the teaching dichotomous that people used to take or used to apply to their own classrooms because back 20 years ago, before I was even existing here,. It was the idea of teaching with a pen and paper and teaching in a kind of an old fashioned, obsolete way.