Speaker 1
Yes, exactly. And what we see specifically here in our geography, so we are talking about the possibility of the Ukraine to get out of this civilization of this influence, Russian influence, which has been in the previous centuries first in the Russian Empire and then during Soviet times. So we are talking about, and that's what this war is about. So Putin cannot tolerate the fact that Ukraine could be out of the game, out of the geography and out of this border of the zone of influence. So specifically, and the mere fact that Ukraine is an Eastern type of Christianity changes nothing in it. So in Ukraine, so now you see all this formal discussion about European Union membership, about Native membership. So there are talks about that which are much more explicit this year if you compare to what was happening before. But even when the whole history started back in 2013 with the U.S. It was specifically about European Union and about the European identity of Ukraine and away from Russian civilization, from these form of social organization, of this nature of power, this nature of relationship between people, these principles and these values. So this is about, and this is when history started. So this started in 2013 with this popular pricing, a protest in the Central Square and Key which was a couple of thousands of people were there. But now we see the continuation of the game which is much, much bigger because after that after the unicorn which led the county, there were annexation of the Crimea because it was specifically a reaction of Putin against this right of people to express what they want, what kind of geography, what kind of mental mapping they like to belong to. So Ukrainians chose Europe and it was inadmittable for Putin. So he started with Crimea and then he moved on this with hybrid war in Donbass and the real war in Donbass and then this full scale invasion eight years later which lasts already for one year. So this is about the possibility of borders to change. And it happened before in history. So we were talking about Soviet zone of influence which went quite far away to the west, to the Eastern European, Central European countries, they no more belong to the zone of influence. So you cannot really say that they are kind of a real border between civilizations and they can move and that's exactly where the history happens.
Speaker 2
Yes, and while we are saying, while we are approaching, while we are criticizing Fukuyama and this thesis of end of history, why I think that history has actually begun in 1989 or 1991 because what is history? History is the collapse of structures, the collapse of this spatial idea of our existence, the collapse of this idea that everything can be mapped and it's like eternal present and there are all elements of the structure and they are cooperating with each other, they are conflicting with each other but the structure is there. And I think that, well, precisely because the Cold War was kind of a structure with these two poles, when you remove one of these poles and we consider in Ukraine that this pole of course was criminal, was evil, etc. But when you remove it, actually it doesn't mean that the first pole just won and everything will be fine. It means that the element of structure, of the structure is gone, one of the key elements and then there will be lots of movement around it. For example, another element will try to move in the spaces which were left by this first element which is gone, this first element will try to make a revenge, make a revenge for this loss and this is what is happening.