American football is so big — so braided into our weekends, our language, and our culture — that it can be hard to see it clearly as a whole.

In his new book, Football, Chuck Klosterman helps us see the game from unexpected angles, and argues that football isn’t just a sport, it’s a kind of national operating system. Chuck explains how it became the dominant televised spectacle in America, despite having elements that should count against it. We then explore football as a simulation — of war, of reality, and even of itself — and how its simulation through video games has actually fed back into the sport itself. We also talk about who Chuck thinks is the GOAT (hint: it's not Tom Brady), and the difference between achievement and greatness. At the end of our conversation, Chuck lays out a compelling argument for why football may be headed for a steep and surprising fall.

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