15 expert takes on infosec in the age of AI
80,000 Hours Podcast
Navigating AI Security and Loyalties
This chapter explores the intricate security challenges posed by AI development, particularly regarding espionage threats and the potential for AI systems to harbor secret loyalties. It emphasizes the need for companies to balance technological protection with informed internal collaboration to prevent misalignment on project objectives. The discussion includes strategies for mitigating risks associated with hidden biases in AI models, underscoring the importance of transparency and robust security measures in safeguarding against misuse.
"There’s almost no story of the future going well that doesn’t have a part that’s like '…and no evil person steals the AI weights and goes and does evil stuff.' So it has highlighted the importance of information security: 'You’re training a powerful AI system; you should make it hard for someone to steal' has popped out to me as a thing that just keeps coming up in these stories, keeps being present. It’s hard to tell a story where it’s not a factor. It’s easy to tell a story where it is a factor." — Holden Karnofsky
What happens when a USB cable can secretly control your system? Are we hurtling toward a security nightmare as critical infrastructure connects to the internet? Is it possible to secure AI model weights from sophisticated attackers? And could AI might actually make computer security better rather than worse?
With AI security concerns becoming increasingly urgent, we bring you insights from 15 top experts across information security, AI safety, and governance, examining the challenges of protecting our most powerful AI models and digital infrastructure — including a sneak peek from an episode that hasn’t yet been released with Tom Davidson, where he explains how we should be more worried about “secret loyalties” in AI agents.
You’ll hear:
- Holden Karnofsky on why every good future relies on strong infosec, and how hard it’s been to hire security experts (from episode #158)
- Tantum Collins on why infosec might be the rare issue everyone agrees on (episode #166)
- Nick Joseph on whether AI companies can develop frontier models safely with the current state of information security (episode #197)
- Sella Nevo on why AI model weights are so valuable to steal, the weaknesses of air-gapped networks, and the risks of USBs (episode #195)
- Kevin Esvelt on what cryptographers can teach biosecurity experts (episode #164)
- Lennart Heim on on Rob’s computer security nightmares (episode #155)
- Zvi Mowshowitz on the insane lack of security mindset at some AI companies (episode #184)
- Nova DasSarma on the best current defences against well-funded adversaries, politically motivated cyberattacks, and exciting progress in infosecurity (episode #132)
- Bruce Schneier on whether AI could eliminate software bugs for good, and why it’s bad to hook everything up to the internet (episode #64)
- Nita Farahany on the dystopian risks of hacked neurotech (episode #174)
- Vitalik Buterin on how cybersecurity is the key to defence-dominant futures (episode #194)
- Nathan Labenz on how even internal teams at AI companies may not know what they’re building (episode #176)
- Allan Dafoe on backdooring your own AI to prevent theft (episode #212)
- Tom Davidson on how dangerous “secret loyalties” in AI models could be (episode to be released!)
- Carl Shulman on the challenge of trusting foreign AI models (episode #191, part 2)
- Plus lots of concrete advice on how to get into this field and find your fit
Check out the full transcript on the 80,000 Hours website.
Chapters:
- Cold open (00:00:00)
- Rob's intro (00:00:49)
- Holden Karnofsky on why infosec could be the issue on which the future of humanity pivots (00:03:21)
- Tantum Collins on why infosec is a rare AI issue that unifies everyone (00:12:39)
- Nick Joseph on whether the current state of information security makes it impossible to responsibly train AGI (00:16:23)
- Nova DasSarma on the best available defences against well-funded adversaries (00:22:10)
- Sella Nevo on why AI model weights are so valuable to steal (00:28:56)
- Kevin Esvelt on what cryptographers can teach biosecurity experts (00:32:24)
- Lennart Heim on the possibility of an autonomously replicating AI computer worm (00:34:56)
- Zvi Mowshowitz on the absurd lack of security mindset at some AI companies (00:48:22)
- Sella Nevo on the weaknesses of air-gapped networks and the risks of USB devices (00:49:54)
- Bruce Schneier on why it’s bad to hook everything up to the internet (00:55:54)
- Nita Farahany on the possibility of hacking neural implants (01:04:47)
- Vitalik Buterin on how cybersecurity is the key to defence-dominant futures (01:10:48)
- Nova DasSarma on exciting progress in information security (01:19:28)
- Nathan Labenz on how even internal teams at AI companies may not know what they’re building (01:30:47)
- Allan Dafoe on backdooring your own AI to prevent someone else from stealing it (01:33:51)
- Tom Davidson on how dangerous “secret loyalties” in AI models could get (01:35:57)
- Carl Shulman on whether we should be worried about backdoors as governments adopt AI technology (01:52:45)
- Nova DasSarma on politically motivated cyberattacks (02:03:44)
- Bruce Schneier on the day-to-day benefits of improved security and recognising that there’s never zero risk (02:07:27)
- Holden Karnofsky on why it’s so hard to hire security people despite the massive need (02:13:59)
- Nova DasSarma on practical steps to getting into this field (02:16:37)
- Bruce Schneier on finding your personal fit in a range of security careers (02:24:42)
- Rob's outro (02:34:46)
Audio engineering: Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong
Content editing: Katy Moore and Milo McGuire
Transcriptions and web: Katy Moore
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