What role does specifically cultural liberalism play in this? Because obviously cultural liberalism is going back to the way that you talk about political liberalism. You say the goal is there is that we have the ability to pursue our plans and preferences and that's squarely within what cultural liberalism is. Political liberalism is simply a system where everyone is kind of free to pursue their preferences and plans even if it's different, even if it's wildly diverse and it's not at all the same set of preferences as the guy down the street or the guy across the country. But it seems like a lot of the illiberalism that we are facing right now

isn't

about people wanting to scale back economic liberalism, right, specifically. It's not really about the political institutions. Those are all like the rejection of those and even the rejection of epistemic liberalism. Those all seem to be like downstream effects of ultimately a rejection of cultural liberalism or a sense that the cultural dynamism has gone either too far or it hasn't gone far enough. And so on the cultural reactionary right, the rejection of political liberalism and the rejection of economic liberalism are because they are enabling the vocation of culture, the sudden tolerance of lifestyles that I find distasteful, the tearing apart of certain traditional ways of living that were preferences and so we need to attack these things as causes of that. On the left it seems like a lot of the illiberalism is the the dynamism of or the tolerance that comes with dynamism so the acceptance of all of these alternate ways of living isn't happening fast enough or there are people out there who have not themselves accepted it and so we need to now attack political liberalism and economic liberalism in order to punish them or force faster change. So we need the institutions of the state to compel people to have a certain set of beliefs or to keep certain sets of beliefs out of the conversational sphere or the bake shop owner who's not going to bake a cake for a gay wedding, we need to rein in his political or his economic liberalism, his economic freedom in order to compel him to kind of go along with the cultural dynamism. And so I'm curious about why it seems like cultural liberalism is suddenly the main driver of so much of this whereas in the past what we saw was like the old left the kind of socialist like communist movements were about economic liberalism is bad because it's not producing for the working class or political liberalism is bad because it's enabling certain kinds of economic systems that we don't like but suddenly it seems to be cultural. So am I misreading that and if I'm not like what is what's going on now in that regard?

That's a good question. I want to get to it but I want to flag something you said early on and challenge a bit and see if you're if we're in agreement or a disagreement because it might be an answer to your question. Earlier in this thread you said that you know it doesn't seem like the real challenge around liberalism is about economic liberalism or political liberalism. I would push back on that right? I would you know if if for example the the that there is a norm a set of norms that suggests that no matter what what I might have thought about the last election if I didn't get if I didn't win the vote once I exhaust all of my sort of formal opportunities to to challenge the outcome that that it's expected of me to be in a position that defers to the peaceful transition of power that I that I play that ceremonial role no matter how much I might not like to that doesn't matter. So it it's a liberal default. It's a liberal sensibility that one respects the outcome of free elections. And this being undermined I think is a is a real challenge to political liberalism. Economic liberalism I think is also under a significant challenge with a push towards economic nationalism that it's very difficult to distinguish between far left and far right economic nationalism except for the players that they would leave in control of the of the levers of the state apparatus to control you know big swaths of the of the of the economy. So I do think that there is a real threat but then but it's not but I am wondering like you whether or not there is a link to then the cultural liberalism that we're seeing. Right.