We search, you know, structure presents itself and we willingly embrace it because for some reason we think it's going to, it's going to make things easier. You know, it requires a certain sense of courage to be able to walk away without any, you know, actual available architecture before you beyond whatever the day brings and whoever you run into. And for all of the great experiences you had, were there any moments when during your travels where you were like, I'm very far away from home right now? That's what I was just about to say. That was the first time I realized that I walked that that wasn't the case. And God was like looking

at the, I mean, it was the start, the poverty and the division and the class. And again, you know, they're getting to go through somewhere they grew or Bolivia. I mean, it's really insane. The way some, you know, the means of some people out there. I feel really glad, you know, that I took that time because, you know, maybe there would have been certain things. There was a lot. I was like, no, I don't know. But it's essentially, I think, came to a point where I wasn't writing any music and it wasn't that wasn't happening. And nothing would have been an enjoyable thing. It's such it would have failed. Like, I mean, it would have probably failed. There was an either desperation about. Yeah,

it would have felt like you were trying to escape something, right? And this doesn't sound like an escape at all. Yeah.

I don't know. Do I know? I don't know really. But it didn't feel at the time. And I'll, and there's stuff that, you know, there's music that you've heard on this record that was part of that journey. There's stuff that you're going to hear in the future that was part of that journey and, you

know, this is the point where I get to ask the question I wanted to ask the whole way through since I heard this album, which was what song really conjures up the most vivid memory of that time. Like, what one, if you could pick one, was where the location and the environment and the vibe and the feeling was so perfect that it just presented itself. And it's pretty faithful to that experience on the record.

One of the, like I said, one of the rare moments where something comes out of nowhere. It comes quickly. And like, yeah, like you said, it comes quickly. And I guess they all come out and nowhere really to next

step. Yeah, but this one's this one's waiting for you. Well, you know, just got

to make sure you whenever we think come along, you catch them and try to catch them or catch a memory or version of them or something. Another place we record is in Valencia, Danny Castellar, who produced the record with, along with Gavin Fitzgerald, who are both without them, the album. They are talent and patience with, yeah, but the Danny, we saw that so Danny's from Valencia and Spain and we, there's a little studio and a place called Batcheta, which is about an hour outside of the center of Valencia. And it's up and it's nestled on top of all these orange groves. And it's just got this kind of an ceramic view of just nature. It's a beautiful place. And we had this idea and I have an agreement to let some through the through the echoes and I'm thinking about my little sister. I'm thinking about my little sister. I'm thinking about it. And I think there was something I think I think had not long before that we've given it. You know, been on the phone and, you know, tuning in on the maintenance of it. And she kind of absorbed that all and inhaled and responded in the way she always does and sort of understood about it the way she always does. And I guess I was trying to try to translate what that meant to me. And it just came out and it was the year and I was looking out, you know, there's a glass window and a studio and it's just coming down and I'm looking out over that setting that I explained. And I guess that could answer the question that you asked me about, about everything I've ever seen. When something failed quite cosmic, you know, about very simple, very not complicated, not nothing, not drug-induced, not drinking, just a sober cosmic little moment that may an awful lot.

Have you been writing more like that? I mean, last time we spoke, we were pretty open about the benefits of, you know, leaning into substances in a certain way. And I know you like a drink. I like a drink. We've had a drink. Yeah, I wish I could. It's LA. It's 11.46 in LA. I'm 15 minutes away from appropriate drinking time.

Small, when you go in there, they're like, right, of appropriate drinking. Well, at least

at least when you're

not in like a house party, you know, I have to say, and maybe this

is this might, I don't wear this to come across as tripe. I mean, if I'm a really, really beautiful place, you just look an awesome. Like your skin is glowing, you're light in your eyes. The whole thing just feels like you're really present and the whole thing. So I sort of wonder kind of how you've sort of moved through that.

It's a very specific lighting rig that we have. There's a crew of about 10 people around here that, you know, make out this. Not here. I'm kidding. No, no, no, no, no, no, look, I don't know. If anything, the sun, I always find the sun can hide a lot of sins and can help. I find like generally I kind of get charged a lot by the sun. I think it might be the Italian gene. But yeah, actually, we just did a little tour there and it was, I mean, the sun is one thing and then there was that sun, which was ferocious and angry.

Do you still try to get beyond the sober cosmic experiences? You're still searching for inspiration and other things? I mean, I feel like you're ahead of the curve because some of the things that you were doing now are considered to be acceptable forms of psychotherapy. So I mean, I sort of wonder whether or not you're still dabble in spaces searching for different ways to uncover things in your mind or whether you're kind of like, where's your head at in terms of the way you move from the reality to the spiritual to the substance? Well, I tell

you what I don't do now. I never go. I don't, I'm very, really cool looking for those things, you know, I'm very, very, really sort of, you know, that became a pity to a certain things. I've got the link with certain moments that they came hand in hand and that's kind of going out the window. I mean, there's times where I find myself in situations that the things come along and I make, again, having done certain things, I really know how I react to certain things. And I know that if I approach it in a certain space, you can't obviously be sure of that because you can, I've also at one point, though, had just the whole thing and then

been paying.

Not on your eyes. Really, really reminded that no, each thing can be very individual. And so, so yeah, I'm not pretending that I've corrected that, but I can have an educated guess now. And yeah, I, but generally, I think, you know, one of my favorite things is to, as I went creating, went creating something when trying to pursue an idea or something. And that is a, that is a, there's the alchemy of that trying to, that's a bit pointless trying to decipher what's going to work, you know, what's one drink too many or what's one puff too many, all of that stuff. But certainly not, there's not too much of nothing's not going to do you any favors, you

know. So I'm on here called radio, which begins kind of like this, this through line that dips up and dips down of this very basic human desire for love and to be loved. I liked it because it felt like it was kind of almost a cynical reflection of, of this kind of like, um, disingenuous love. And then it's just kind of it opens up and it's like, well, wait a minute, actually, like, you know, I'm searching for that too. Like, maybe I should, maybe I should embrace that rather than reject it from a distance. And I love that sentiment. And I feel like that's kind of flows through the album a bit. Is that, is that fair to say, is that was that, did that surprise you as a through line as a continuum.

The main thread of the record was just a kind of conscious notion of trying to trying to, you know, to move out or to try and consciously be happier, you know, and maybe pursue something and try to, you know, to stop going over the same kind of ground and open up. You know, open, open up the mind and a completely different way to those to do this kind of, all that, how to listen to Jenny stuff, just just to a more, just to yourself really and to sort of see what's in front of you and see what's in the mirror and not only within yourself, but become a bit of a better person to be around. And, and yeah, I mean, if that's, if I get, you know, love, I mean, even just like the notion of, of liking or loving yourself a little bit more and, and, and liking what you do and how you do and what you bring to, because, you know, what you bring to the, to the whole party, you

know, like emotionally as a person. It's so funny you mentioned that because the first time we ever really spoke properly in depth was on quite a caustic note. I'd been actually warned, like people have been like, he's, he can be tough. Like he's, he can be really tough to talk with. He doesn't like doing interviews. People sort of in a caring way sort of said, don't expect him to sort of do the song or dance that people do when they walk in the room. I never got that from you for whatever reason, but I, I got a sense that the expectation and you touched on this before can actually drive you deeper into that heaviness as you describe it, that not being comfortable in the environment that everyone's pushing you to be comfortable and just makes you more uncomfortable. Sometimes

you're comfortable and sometimes you know, you know, sometimes, you know, being a human being, you know, there's, there's, there's a situation or an environment that you know, you can't help but be, then, and react to what, what you're going through, you know, it's like, it's like if you meet someone in the street. It's very harsh and hard to base your whole entire opinion on somebody from meeting them one time. Because you don't know what's happened that day. And yet we

sort of find ourselves ignoring that basic common sense again because of time and because of this kind of pace they were all moving in.

I've always tried my best to be empathetic with that notion and realised that you're not supposed to be spotless and perfect and great all the time. And even everything we do doesn't have to take the boxes of acceptability. And you know it doesn't mean you make a mistake, it doesn't mean you are a mistake. But you know there's obviously like you said there's common sense and there's common decency and there's certain things that you just hope that people know that just can't be done. But you know I think sometimes you know like I said we're human beings and we're if you know we all have to be

em. And it's funny because you talk about this kind of overarching desire to want to allow people to make mistakes and yet you know when you talk about making this album trying to ultimately kind of nudge yourself into that place yourself right to acknowledge that it's okay for you as well right it's okay for you to be that.

Yeah or no. Yes or no I mean what I was going on about is maybe saying that you know maybe I was personally becoming I've not got desire to want people to make mistakes or let people to make mistakes. I've just got you know like I try to not vilify someone that's straight away even if they do me wrong or if they come to me or it's there's you know but then again again there's there's there's variance about whole thing. You know for me it was more like okay I'm kind of tired of making the same mistakes and I've kind of you know I'm having a scene where I'm either becoming or I'm but these are personal repetitive things that I felt that generally was usually stuff that the victim was generally the biggest victim was myself. They were quite inward things that I'm talking about and I think that's that when you talk about an overarching theme to the record you know I found myself going and a lot of you know ups and the downs of my life were very very piggyback in each other were very very and and and I just felt because I know we acted at least right there the positive for a little longer you know before the inevitable death happens because because of course it was well you know but but I just felt like I wasn't doing that sort of you know that wave any favors by the way I was living my life and the way

I was sort of handling myself. If you if you give into it from start to finish it's a considerable commitment of time that requires you to pause and slow down and really acknowledge the songwriting and the music and and I urge everyone who's listening to this to do that it's not enough I might feel that you should be just taking one thing off and there's that and everything else because not just because the quality of the music because it's good for your soul to sit down for 70 minutes and just absorb something and just listen to it and appreciate it and and I just I love that man it's kind of in contrast to everything else is moving right now and I actually appreciated the fact that you were that you were really generous with your time on this album.

Oh man that's the the the generosity with the the other way up it I just felt like I had to get in there was many stages where the songs were were a bunch of songs or you know and and until it becomes an album that's really what they are a bunch of songs. It's all for me that that could be an element of the time that things have been a take I don't want to say to us because I don't know how I'll actually follow it. I won't hold

you accountable don't worry.

You're kind of congelling other things that you know when you go in and out you know over that time we're going and I'll do a session I'll put and I'll call I'll call the people that I want to people that should be the right to work with on the on the music that we're going to do I'll call them off and I say we'll go somewhere and we'll go to we'll go there and we'll go for maybe five days or a week or something you know if at the time well there's it and everybody's thing and and and and I'll have like a feeling or something that you know they'll be able to be a little to be a cluster of music and a cluster of songs that come out of that session and and I guess what you hear is some what when it becomes an album you kind of get I guess there's there's songs that come from all of those different little those those notions and all of those different impulses and there's other songs that are there so you know as you're as you're sort of making one thing because another thing happened in anyway but even that then has to become what it's going to be and then tell us an album I don't really feel like it's it's an it's a little bit less it's sounds stupid saying it but until it is an album it's not an album you know it's it's a bunch of songs and yeah and and really the the amount of songs that's more of a product of what I thought it to to become what it should be rather than a conscious okay let's let's let's make up for you know like a you know a lot of people said oh you know you're making up for

those things like there's some kind of like we've been taking notes saying like every year he's not here he owes me another four songs now that adds up to approximately 17 songs and anything less than that palo is a fucking kick in the nuts from my point of view as a fan you know I mean one star one song one

song shot and a new crap I guess it's like you're trying to make it like a like a film yeah you've

got you've got to see the you complete the thought you have to complete the thought yeah we've started talking about writer and sadly we've come to the end of our time yeah then you played that was where you played at the start yeah I mean that song I loved it when I heard it the first but I got to it on the album I just isolated that one song and then sent the album with that song playing so so many people I knew people you know people I know I just and everyone I was just like you got a songwriters producers I was like you just got to listen this is just like perfectly sums it up and everyone came back and agreed it's it's it's kind of like one of those moments where the troubadour gets gets us gets his flowers or gets her flowers gets their flowers I sort of wonder what can you just please kind of find some words to try to sort of best put into context that song for you and where it came from and and why it sits where it sits on the album what it means because I I really love it

well I guess I guess you know what I think I think it comes at the end because I think it was a nice illustration of a lot of the the things and the and the aspects of my personality that that that led me to want to you know try to break through you know and maybe maybe be more than what I considered myself to be and you know and it certainly wasn't the last song written on the album in fact to the contrary it was one of the earliest maybe some written and the old process but I think that's why I think I think it was to me it felt like well this kind of says this kind of reminds me of why I wanted to why I had the whole notion in the first place and the you know and it's it's it's a bit of a kind of harsh reflection on you know the kind of you know the whole the the kind of yourself you know like they did they did and and yeah I think it for me and we summed up a lot of the things that I was talking about and it's not you know the album is a different things of salvation some of them are autobiographical some of them are some of them are about things that I've read or watched or things that happen to other people and that I guess that's one of the main thing of that I was the kind of person that somebody could come to if they were in trouble and other times when I was very unreliable and I was too I was I was maybe you know the times when as a person you're you're not really that emotionally available or you know you can't you can't provide that kind of solace and and and to work because generally you know because you you don't have it any and sometimes and sometimes you do something yeah I think we all do that a lot of times as well you know we give this advice to people who are struggling and we could when then the next day go out and completely contradict it I find that I've done it I find that people that give me advice do it

we're flawed

what a funny a flawed we're funny flawed

race species we're all weird species but

you know that we do have times where we we can do you know we do good we can do good and we can help people and I think you know try at least to try and help people with as a good idea and even if maybe you can't all the thing

thanks for listening to another conversation on the interview series it's a rare one with power loan to teeny stick around well over a hundred conversations right here now for you to dive into another one coming next week take care