Advice on Building and Mapping Instruments with Ableton Live

Sarah Belle Reid is a performer and composer. She plays trumpet, modular synthesizers, and a wide array of electronic gadgets. Sarah holds a Doctorate of Musical Arts from the California Institute of the Arts. She teaches music technology and modular synthesis at universities and her own online programs.

Sarah spoke about how she combines her classical training with electronic music production and sound design. She explains how she keeps curiosity and joy central to her work. Sarah and I discussed the importance of mindset and perspective in the creative arts. 

Sarah's Learning Sound and Synthesis Course opens again in August 2023!

Listen on Apple, Spotify, Google, YouTube

Show Notes:

• Sarah's Official Site - https://www.sarahbellereid.com/
• Learning Sound and Synthesis Course - https://www.soundandsynthesis.com/
• How to Design Your First Modular Synth Patch Free Course - https://www.soundandsynthesis.com/firstpatch2022
• Sarah's Facebook featuring her Create with Courage posts - https://www.facebook.com/sarah.bellereid
• Now's by Sarah Belle Reid and David Rosenboom - https://reidrosenboom.bandcamp.com/album/nows
• Support Sarah on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/sarahbellereid
• Sarah's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@sarahbellereid
• No Input Mixer Tutorial - https://youtu.be/oUhfkaVUPY8
• The Art of Is by Stephen Nachmanovitch - https://amzn.to/44rikXq
• Zen Mind Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki - https://amzn.to/44MSJIT
• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com
• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 
• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book
• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit
• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast
• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store
• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

And don’t forget to visit my site https://BrianFunk.com for music production tutorials, videos, and sound packs.

Transcript:

Brian Funk: Hello everybody. Welcome to the music production podcast. I'm your host, Brian Funk. On today's show I have Sarah Bell-Reed and Sarah is a performer, composer, trumpetist, modular, synthesis, that's hard to say. She makes a lot of really wide ranging music and one of the descriptions I really enjoyed was that it's graceful, danceful, silk falling through space and a pit full of centipedes. Which describes just how it goes from so many different extremes from more traditional classical sounds all the way to far out stretching the definition of music with noise and a lot of the electronic stuff that goes into it. She's a doctorate of music arts at California Institute of the Arts, teaches music tech and modular synthesis online. I've been watching the introduction to modular synth course, which is cool. Sarah, it's great to have you here. Thanks for taking the time.

Sarah Belle Reid: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Brian Funk: You have a very impressive resume of stuff you do and it's so wide ranging. I think it's really cool that you have this, it's like the nice place music is going, especially music education, where people are starting to take the traditional stuff and bring in some more new stuff, some of the more cutting edge stuff that's happening out there. And it's such a nice thing to see that you're bringing that to your performances, your music, and also your teaching.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, yeah, well, thank you.

Brian Funk: Heh.

Sarah Belle Reid: I think for me, you know, I have a very traditional background in my musical training. But I always had this feeling, even though I didn't quite know how to describe it or what it meant, but I always had this feeling that there was something more that I wanted to be able to explore in my music making. And so when I found and was introduced to these more experimental aspects of making music, like improvisation and just experimental electronics and all of that, it really felt like. all of the puzzle pieces were coming together. It wasn't a replacing of everything I had developed as a traditional or classically trained trumpet player. It was just like, oh, now this story makes sense. Now my

Brian Funk: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: voice feels more complete. You know what I mean? So it's like it all came together.

Brian Funk: Yeah, I've found that for myself too, just over time, the different things in your life that feel so separate from each other. Sometimes they start coming together into this one path and you need a little time to see that happen. At least I definitely did.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Brian Funk: And it's nice too because sometimes the music education departments are very steeped in tradition and kind of resist this stuff. They see it as something that they, you know, almost like a challenge to it, maybe. I'm not sure, but I've run into that myself occasionally with trying to bring in just I teach high school English as a day job and trying to bring in like music production, Ableton Live stuff

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: into it. Not everyone is interested. Some people in the music departments were really excited and other people were kind of like, that's not music. I kind

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh.

Brian Funk: of got that feeling. Do you encounter that ever, some of those different challenges and how people see it?

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh, of course.

Brian Funk: haha

Sarah Belle Reid: Absolutely. Yes. Both in, you know, in educational spaces and just in the world, you know. with people having different musical experiences, different backgrounds, different perspectives, different things that they like. Sometimes the music that I'm really interested in and that I make is challenging to listen to. Sometimes it doesn't have a traditional obvious hook or even a repeatable rhythm that you can snap along to. Sometimes it's just very... kind of amorphous and more like... sound design. You know, a lot of the time people, some people will say, oh, your music is more almost like experimental sound design than it is quote unquote music. To me, in my opinion, it's all music. Like all sound is music. But yeah, people sometimes express all kinds of opinions. And I've definitely, I've had some challenging conversations with people who don't get it and don't want to get it. But I've also had some really exciting deep conversations that are more based in curiosity. People who don't get it and are like, okay, what is happening? You know, I don't know what I'm hearing. What am I hearing? Can

Brian Funk: Right?

Sarah Belle Reid: you tell me how to begin to listen to this? And I love those kinds of conversations. You don't have to get it right from the beginning. You know what I mean? In fact, I feel like that mentality of, you know, you have to get it when it comes to music actually can really perpetuate that siloed. way of thinking that you can find in some educational systems, like what I believe you were talking about, where it's like, this is classical music, this is jazz, this is pop music.

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: I feel like if we could give everyone a little more permission to not understand things and have that be okay, we would be

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: able to maybe blend a little bit more freely between all of these different modes of making music.

Brian Funk: Right, yeah, that's cool you

Sarah Belle Reid: It's

Brian Funk: say

Sarah Belle Reid: just

Brian Funk: that.

Sarah Belle Reid: a thought. It's just something I've been thinking about.

Brian Funk: Well, I guess you probably get a lot of the, sorry you play your trumpet so nice, but these buttons and knobs.

Sarah Belle Reid: Well, I even get, believe it or not, it depends on the concert and the audience, but I've even had people come up to me afterwards and say, do you, after a long performance on trumpet, be like, well, do you ever play a nice melody on that thing, on that horn, you know? Yes, in fact, I do. Thank you for asking. It's just a mix. You know, everyone has different backgrounds and perspectives that they're coming from, so.

Brian Funk: Well, art, you know, especially when it's new, always challenges people and

Sarah Belle Reid: Exactly.

Brian Funk: it divides people. And that's part of what's nice.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: And there's people, I don't know who it's credited to, but just kind of, it's better to have people love it and people hate it than just to have people, okay, I've heard

Sarah Belle Reid: Right?

Brian Funk: this before. It's

Sarah Belle Reid: Have

Brian Funk: more

Sarah Belle Reid: people

Brian Funk: of that

Sarah Belle Reid: forget

Brian Funk: again.

Sarah Belle Reid: about it.

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, I once had a mentor tell me that early on and I'm so grateful that they shared that with me because it's really stuck with me. If you move someone with your music, even if you're moving them in a way that maybe feels slightly negative or they don't like it or they don't get it, you're still stirring something up within them.

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: You're expanding their life in that moment. Your music changed them in some way. It made them question how they think about music. It made them hear new things. That's actually incredible.

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: And so from my perspective, it's not that I gave up, but I let go of the priority of trying to have everyone like my music many, many years ago, and now I'm focused on sharing really meaningful listening experiences with people as one of my primary goals in making music.

Brian Funk: I imagine trumpet came first.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yep, actually, well, piano way back and then trumpet and then electronics. Yeah.

Brian Funk: How did you get introduced into that electronic world? What was it that, was it like somebody, a friend or?

Sarah Belle Reid: I was in grad school in California, so it was pretty, you know, relatively late. I had been playing trumpeted music for many years at that point, but I had never even seen a synthesizer. I had no idea about this world at all. And for some reason, I decided to join a class called interface design, which is a class where you actually design and build your own. musical interfaces or interfaces for musical expression. So it could be something that has buttons and knobs on it, like an Ableton push, something that maybe is a MIDI controller, or it could be, you know. anything you could imagine that you might want to use to control sound. So people were building wearable sensor-based things that they would then give to dancers and the dancers would move around and that would give them data to turn into a synthesized sound or to control lighting. And I really wanted to build a gestural interface to go on my trumpet. That was kind of where it started. So I had never used Ableton. I had never used a synthesizer. I had never even used like an effects pedal, but I

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: was like, okay, I wanna do this because this sounds really cool. How can I turn my trumpet into some kind of controller for electronics and visual? At the time I was really interested in like coded visuals and stuff like that. I don't do a ton of that anymore. But so I started there. And then once that thing was built, I realized. you can't make electronic music without understanding how electronic instruments work. So then I started to work with modular synths and more in Ableton and different programs on my computer to kind of pull it all together.

Brian Funk: Right, right, so that

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: pulled you right into that world.

Sarah Belle Reid: exactly. It's kind of a strange introduction into the world of electronic music, but I'm grateful for it. So.

Brian Funk: It's something that I really was interested in when I first started getting into computer-based music. I started on guitar, playing in rock bands, not trained or anything like you, but more grimy punk rock angle. Once I started finding out about MIDI controllers and that you can put them together and map them how you want, it really made me think about just instrument design in general.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Just how amazing it is that certain things like a trumpet or like a guitar or piano have stuck around for so long

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: and still seem almost like these unsolved puzzles that have so much left to give. And now... there's all these new kind of ways of looking at music. And it's a really fun time. There's always something new coming

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: out. That's a totally exciting new way to create music that

Sarah Belle Reid: Yep.

Brian Funk: sometimes relies on skills you have already. And sometimes it enables people that have no musical training at all to

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: create really interesting music. You have, um, can you describe what you did to your trumpet a little bit?

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, I

Brian Funk: I've

Sarah Belle Reid: can...

Brian Funk: seen some pictures and like, it's, it's kind of, it's like space age almost.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, so basically what it is, it's a little collection. So basically it's run with a microcontroller, an Arduino, which is a little tiny microcontroller that you can get for, I think, 20 or 30 bucks. And it allows you to attach different sensors to it and read the data from the sensors. And so I built this little enclosure that goes onto the trumpet and it detects the motion of the valves, so the pistons that you use to change to play different notes, and also the amount of pressure that you have, that your left hand has on the trumpet as you're holding it, and also the tilt. There's an accelerometer in it as well, so as you move the horn up and down or side to side, it will detect that as well. And then that Arduino, like I said, it just reads the data and allows you to transmit that data onto a computer. And from there, you have to get creative and figure out what you want to do with it. If you want to use it as MIDI to control a MIDI synth, or if you want to convert it to some other data format, which you can do and send it to another program and so on and so forth. But the real music making starts at the computer end of things.

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: And the device, which I call MIGSI, which is Minimally Invasive Gesture Sensing Interface, remember folks, I did this in grad school. It was very much my thesis, so it's super nerdy. I apologize.

Brian Funk: That's cool though.

Sarah Belle Reid: But yeah, that part is really just about sensor data capture, like gestural

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: data capture, yeah.

Brian Funk: Right. And you have to then, like you're building the instrument, you're building this thing, and then you have to decide what all of that stuff does, which

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: can change for, I'm sure every performance.

Sarah Belle Reid: Exactly. And that's the most challenging and also the most rewarding part. I co-designed Migsie with someone named Ryan Gaston, who I was in school with at the time. And we, I remember we got to the point where all of the sensors were working. The data was flowing to the computer and we were just looked at each other and we're like, what the heck do we do now? Like, what do you do with seven streams of numbers? How do you turn that into music? It's a big challenge. But, um, you know, you just go to go piece by piece and you, you can, basically you can think, well, maybe this when this number goes up that means there's more reverb applied onto this sound or maybe when this number goes down maybe we divide this string of numbers into like three sections and we use each section to trigger a different sound and you start you start small like that and then the ideas start to kind of click as you go

Brian Funk: Right, that's

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah

Brian Funk: pretty much the same advice I give people with Ableton Live and programming your MIDI controllers.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: I do a class for Berklee Online, it's a sampling with Ableton Live, and there's a live performance portion, and I explain to the class, like, look, I'm not expecting something ready for prime time at Madison Square Garden or something like that. It's just build it small. Start with one little thing you wanna do.

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: and try that out because it's different than picking up any other instrument because you have to build the instrument and then you have to decide what it does and then you have to make music and perform

Sarah Belle Reid: Exactly.

Brian Funk: it.

Sarah Belle Reid: And often what I've learned over and over and over again is that simpler is better when it comes to mapping things like mini controllers or anything. In my experience anyway, you often think, well, I have 10 fingers and I've got 34 buttons, like, let's use them all. But, and, you know, some people are really great at that kind of thing. For me, I've really realized that Less is more. Sometimes just three or five really meaningful controls can be more than enough to make an expressive piece of music. Because it's not all about triggering a sound, and then that's it. It's triggering a sound. Maybe it's loud this time and softer this time or different pitches and all of the different things you can do to the sound once you trigger it. I hope that makes sense. I feel

Brian Funk: Definitely.

Sarah Belle Reid: like I kind of went on a little. But less is more is the moral of the story.

Brian Funk: It's the same thing I've done with my live performance set in Ableton. Um, it's the same set I created almost 15 years ago

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: and it just gets save as save as, and you just change something. And it kind of started like slowly. It went up and I added things and then

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: it kind of got a little over complicated

Sarah Belle Reid: Yup.

Brian Funk: where I have these buttons might

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: as well make them do something. And my performances, when I listened back to them, sounded like somebody that was afraid the audience might think I'm only checking my email on my computer. So

Sarah Belle Reid: I'm

Brian Funk: I'm

Sarah Belle Reid: sorry.

Brian Funk: like overcompensating, doing way more. It didn't serve the song or the music, but it looked cool. You

Sarah Belle Reid: Right,

Brian Funk: know,

Sarah Belle Reid: you were busy. You had your hands

Brian Funk: I was

Sarah Belle Reid: full.

Brian Funk: busy. And by now it's tapered off a lot. It's

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: nowhere near as complicated as it was at one point. Because, yeah, it's just... I agree with you a lot, the simple stuff is where it's at, used effectively. That's fun. You've done some really cool stuff recently. I wanted to talk to you about, it was one of the big things that got me to reach out to you with the creative, um, the create with courage

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: for 30 days or 30, maybe it's 31 days

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: you did just a post on Facebook is where I was seeing them. And just offering some wisdom information, some experiences from your past.

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: What, what inspired you to start doing that?

Sarah Belle Reid: Well, I was thinking a lot about... why I make music. It's a big question that I actually ask myself fairly often. I think it's just helpful to check in. And for the record, I don't think that there's any right or wrong answer for a person to have. I just think it's a nice exercise of self-reflection to be like, why am I doing this? What's meaningful about this to me? Because it will change as we grow as artists and go through life, I think. I was thinking a lot about this. A couple of the really big driving forces behind why I am an artist and why I dedicate my life to making music has to do with creating and sharing connections with people through sound, as I mentioned a little earlier on, and also joy. It's a really simple thing, but just being joyful and doing what I love and sharing that with other people. And in the last couple of years, as I've been doing more online teaching, I've also come to really, really value the pursuit of courage and creative courage. And in particular, one of the reasons why I teach is because I want to be able to help people make more music that they absolutely love with joy and courage. I want to help people make the kind of music that they will listen back to and be like, Yeah, like, heck yeah. Like, I did that

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: thing and that feels like a true expression of myself. And I am so excited to share that with the world. You know, like, I went for it. I didn't compromise along the way because I was nervous about what someone would think, which is something that I used to do a lot. And I'm sure many people can relate to. You know, I didn't, like, dim it down for fear that it wouldn't be accepted. I just did my thing. Loud

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: and... And so those were the values. It was this idea of connection, joy, and then courage. And I was just sort of chewing on it and thinking it over. And yeah, the idea of... walking the walk a little bit and just seeing, okay, well, what would it look like if every day I shared something that required me to be courageous

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: and myself and to be vulnerable and just open about what I've learned in life and what I've gone through that's helped me get to where I am today. Maybe that could help people bring a little bit more of that into their lives. And as an added bonus, I can connect with people along the way. you know, through the discussions in the comments and everything on the posts.

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: So that's sort of how it came up. And, uh, it was an amazing experience. It was 30 days. And every single day I shared some kind of lesson, um, you know, or experience that I've had in life that has had, that is somehow related to being a musician or being a creative person. And, you know, going through sometimes very challenging times, sometimes really awesome times, and just everything that you learn from it, and how you grow with it.

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Yeah, there was definitely a lot of vulnerability shared,

Sarah Belle Reid: Yes.

Brian Funk: which I thought was really nice. Especially coming from someone with your background, you have a doctorate in music, right? So like, it's very, it's the kind of thing that I think a lot of people would feel like your past, right? Like you've, you've received the credentials, you're playing the festivals, you're doing all these things that... It's nice, it's refreshing. It's something I've

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: gotten doing this podcast as well is that I haven't had anyone tell me it's easy or that, yeah, I just make music, you know, just comes

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: out of me. Like anything, masterpiece after masterpiece, nobody says that. Even

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: people like you would have thought that really had it figured out, still have these struggles and vulnerabilities.

Sarah Belle Reid: Well, and I think that's part of, that's another really big reason why I wanted to do this is because usually, it sounds like your podcast is an exception to that, which is great, but a lot of the time online, you see the perfect finished product, right? You see the album after months or years of work. You see the perfectly curated social media feed. You see everything going super well. And it can be baffling. Like it can be like, how are they doing this? What is wrong with me?

Brian Funk: Right?

Sarah Belle Reid: get that perfect schedule in my studio or make a track a week or whatever you're seeing someone else do. And I think that such a big part of the growth that I've been able to have over the years as a musician has come from being able to see into other people's real lives and see them working through... mindset struggles or insecurities or life being full of surprises or like, hey, I suck at this and like, I've got to go and practice really hard. And like getting to see that happen, like see people just go from really not having that skill to like a month later, really having that skill because they put three hours a day in the practice room and made it happen, you know. So I guess what I realized is that a lot of the time online, that's missing. You don't see that process-based aspect.

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Yeah, you kind of get the flashy

Sarah Belle Reid: You

Brian Funk: finished

Sarah Belle Reid: just get

Brian Funk: product.

Sarah Belle Reid: the,

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah, and then it really, and then it's easy for someone to be like, wow, I'm never gonna be there. Like,

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: I guess I'm not cut out for this. That's the sentence I hate hearing the most is, and it's something I once used to say to myself, I guess they have something I don't have, like some secret ability.

Brian Funk: Right,

Sarah Belle Reid: So I

Brian Funk: like

Sarah Belle Reid: kind of

Brian Funk: some

Sarah Belle Reid: felt

Brian Funk: gifts.

Sarah Belle Reid: like some gift, you know, and of course people have, we all have our own unique little gifts. All of us do. And, and anything is learnable and figure out a bowl and it just takes some grit and perseverance and, and courage, and you got to take action and do the thing, you know?

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: So I really wanted to share that with others and, be honest about how I got to where I am and also what I'm in every day still.

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: Very much.

Brian Funk: That's an important gift really, because you mentioned the joy of it, but this is the very thing that brings so much people so much frustration and

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: self-doubt. And I mean, it's funny when you mentioned also like, why do I make music? Like sometimes I get these feelings too. I'm like, what am I making these silly songs for? I'm like a grown-up now. You know, like, let's do something important with my time. Right. And...

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: I think about that and when it's not coming together, when it's not working out, then that's when I'm really vulnerable for that kind

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: of feeling. And there's no joy in that.

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: And at least, and you said there's no right or wrong reason, which I think is so true too because I have a lot of friends that just have an acoustic guitar that they strum after work in the backyard.

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: It's not to record anything. It's not to write a song. It's... maybe learning a riff or just because they like to hear the sound under

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: their fingers.

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah.

Brian Funk: And sometimes we lose that in this quest to whatever

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: it is, whether it's to make songs, finish things or get releases out. It is a real fast way to lose the joy of it. And

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: I think with something like music where, especially if you're trying to make a career There's, there's so many safer bets for like careers that at least if you're going to do music, you should be having fun. You should be enjoying

Sarah Belle Reid: It's

Brian Funk: it.

Sarah Belle Reid: so

Brian Funk: Cause that's,

Sarah Belle Reid: important.

Brian Funk: that's

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: the reason you would ever be crazy enough to do this.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, it's so important and yeah, it's something over the years that I have lost and found and lost and found again and what I've realized for myself is that... Joy is something I can come back to on purpose. I just have to be aware of it. I have to remember. I have to remember to be like, "'Okay, Sarah, how can this be fun?' It sounds like such a silly question, but when you're in the studio and things aren't working and you're like, ah, this sucks, ah, I suck. And then all of the stuff comes in, all of the thoughts and the, oh,

Brian Funk: Damn opens,

Sarah Belle Reid: no one's

Brian Funk: yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: gonna

Brian Funk: Heh.

Sarah Belle Reid: listen anyway, and blah, which I call mind trash. That's what all of that is. It's like in that moment, it's not easy, but the most valuable thing you can do is just be like, okay, breaks. And then how can I make this fun right now?

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: And maybe the answer is pick up some random instrument that you haven't played in a while. Or maybe the answer is take your battery-powered synth out and sit in the backyard or whatever it is that just feels... fun and just come back to that joy and that reason why you're doing it. For me, a lot of the time it's like, I'm not going to do this right now. I'm just going to improvise. I'm just going to play because for me

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: that is fun. And when I start doing that, basically a hundred percent of the time. maybe 90% of the time, it just gets me out of my head. I'm gonna be real. And I reconnect to the sound and my breath and my body and my music and something clicks, you know?

Brian Funk: Hmm. That's a great question to ask. What would this look like if it were fun? How could I make this into something fun?

Sarah Belle Reid: How can this be more fun? Yeah. I also love the question, how could this be easy? That's a little bit of a side note, slightly different

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: question, but that's a bonus power move right there because we are so

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: good at over-complicating things. So I

Brian Funk: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: love asking myself that one too. It's like, I've got a big project, I've got to get it done today or this week. How can this be easy?

Brian Funk: Yeah, I had a really funny and silly one of those moments just like a week or two ago with this podcast where with the art, I finally have somebody helping me do some editing with the podcast. Animus, shout out to him, his help has been so great and tremendous. But sometimes I stick in episodes that are just me talking

Sarah Belle Reid: Uh huh.

Brian Funk: and I was getting really stressed out. I was like, oh, the art. is going to get all messed up because it's going to say like this number of episode and then mine's going to come. I'm like, oh, what am I? And I was like, why do I need the number on there?

Sarah Belle Reid: How

Brian Funk: And

Sarah Belle Reid: can

Brian Funk: I was

Sarah Belle Reid: this

Brian Funk: like,

Sarah Belle Reid: be easy?

Brian Funk: oh my God, this is a problem I don't need to have. But it just, it was the kind of feeling that made me like look at everything in my life and be like, what else am I doing this to?

Sarah Belle Reid: Yes.

Brian Funk: Where else am I trying to put

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh,

Brian Funk: numbers where they don't need to

Sarah Belle Reid: right.

Brian Funk: be?

Sarah Belle Reid: That is some deep wisdom. That's good.

Brian Funk: I'm sorry.

Sarah Belle Reid: That's a funny example, but it's so true. If you're anything like me, if you hadn't noticed that, you could have agonized over that for like

Brian Funk: I did. Oh,

Sarah Belle Reid: some

Brian Funk: I did.

Sarah Belle Reid: time.

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: There was like months, like two months. I was like stressing me out.

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh, well I'm really glad you came to that

Brian Funk: Yeah,

Sarah Belle Reid: realization.

Brian Funk: simple thing.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: But it's such a good question. It reminds me, I don't know where I heard this because I would love to attribute this to somebody, but it was like, we say like, this brings me joy, this brings me joy. And then the person just turned around is like, no, you're taking joy in it. Take joy in it. So it makes that feeling of like having fun and like enjoying

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: something for what it is. more of an action than something that happens to you.

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: And that again has been really helpful for me in

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: certain situations where I'm thinking like, music isn't bringing me any joy. I was like, well, I have to take joy in it. Like,

Sarah Belle Reid: Uh-huh.

Brian Funk: what is it about it that makes it fun? I guess it's another way to look at it. So.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, yeah, it's valuable. The I don't sorry, I don't know if you want to change topics, but one other thing that popped into my mind is just that it gets to be fun. Like you have

Brian Funk: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: permission, permission granted, even the most quote unquote, serious, professional, legitimate insert, whatever qualifying word you want musician. is allowed to have fun,

Brian Funk: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: right? And like somehow I feel anyway, maybe I'm just speaking from my own, or I'm certainly speaking from my own experience, but. it almost felt, when I was in school at times, it almost felt like fun was a waste of time. Like fun was not focus, fun was

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: not the discipline that was needed. Fun was goofing around, you know, it wasn't valued

Brian Funk: Kid

Sarah Belle Reid: in

Brian Funk: stuff.

Sarah Belle Reid: the same way. Yeah, yeah, like you said a minute ago,

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: like why am I, I'm an adult, why am I making

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: these funny songs or whatever? And I just think that, For me, realizing and embracing that when I have more fun, I make better music. It does

Brian Funk: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: not mean all my music sounds cartoonish and goofy and like, ha ha, some of it does, but that's not the end result. It just means that I am more embodied in the process. I'm more present, I'm more joyful, and as a result, everything works better, right?

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: Because I'm moving in flow with myself. I'm not fighting against myself.

Brian Funk: Yeah, the play aspect, play music, you know,

Sarah Belle Reid: play. Yeah.

Brian Funk: play music. It's so important. We were saying we, having trouble remembering things on the spur of the moment, and I'm trying to think of a book now, but it was all about improvisation and it

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm.

Brian Funk: talked a lot about play. Oh, the art of is, the art of is, is what the book is called. I think, now I'm not sure.

Sarah Belle Reid: Hahaha

Brian Funk: I'll write it down, put it in the show notes, but it... It just struck me like that's where so much fun happens. And when you're, when you are a kid, suppose you're on like a playground or something, you're just making up rules. You're coming up with things on the fly. You're not trying to decide if it's acceptable or if it's, you know, smart enough or intelligent

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: enough, which is something I struggle with a lot with my music. I always feel like I'm not being clever enough.

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: It's

Sarah Belle Reid: You're

Brian Funk: just.

Sarah Belle Reid: not alone.

Brian Funk: which spirals me out of

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: the joy of doing it. But that, when I get playful though, then I'll do something weird that I wouldn't normally do. That would be maybe a little unorthodox that might sound clever later on, right? But it was just because I was kinda being silly or just

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: letting go of things.

Sarah Belle Reid: letting go. Exactly. You take risks when you're in a playful

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: state. You're curious. Curious is the magic word for me personally. When I'm playful, when I'm having fun, I get curious. I ask myself, what if? What, not in a bad way, not what if no one likes it, but what would happen if I did that? Ooh, what if

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: I put those sounds together? Ooh, what if I map my controller in this way? Ooh, what if I do it all backwards? And that curiosity is, in my opinion, is where like... innovation comes from. It's the people who are like, oh, I wonder if I connect this and this way instead of that way. Oh, look, I just stumbled across this cool new technique that people will use for the next 40 years, you

Brian Funk: Right?

Sarah Belle Reid: know what I mean?

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: And so I love that. And for me, that is like the magic mindset space. If I can get into a playful, curious space, I know I'll be okay. Yeah.

Brian Funk: Yeah, it's helpful with other people too, especially

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: people you get along with that you're comfortable with. Sometimes that can help you get there

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh

Brian Funk: a

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah,

Brian Funk: bit.

Sarah Belle Reid: for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk: In watching some of your videos, I came across one that I thought was really, I mean, there were a lot, but the one that stuck out to me was when you were playing with mixers to create

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: feedback. So it was like, I forget what you title it, but basically you're plugging the outputs of the mixer back into the inputs and creating all these. stuff you're not supposed to do. Like you're not allowed to do that,

Sarah Belle Reid: I'm

Brian Funk: right?

Sarah Belle Reid: sorry.

Brian Funk: If you went into a studio and started doing that, they'd throw you out. What are you doing? You're going to break something. It's going to, but you were taking that noise really, feedback and just interesting, well, things people wouldn't think is interesting that would normally think was wrong, but that was something you were using then to create something interesting.

Sarah Belle Reid: I'm right.

Brian Funk: And

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: that's a playful thing. That's the kind of thing you might If you let a kid that didn't know what they were doing, just start connecting things they would

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: come up with. But a trained professional would never think to do that.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, the technique that you're referring to is called no input mixing. And yeah, exactly. It's a feedback based technique where you patch the outputs of a device back into its own inputs. And by doing that. you are creating a feedback loop and it will start to self-oscillate, which means it will start to produce its own tones. And they are inherently super chaotic and unpredictable. And something that's so fascinating about working with feedback is, in my opinion, is that you, because of the chaotic nature of the feedback loop that you've created, you're trying to do. So for example on a mixer, you know some mixers have the three band EQ like high, mid, low EQ knobs for example. You could turn the mids up and you'd expect the mids to be boosted but it might actually cause the sound to go from a steady tone to like a choppy, sputtery sound. Or you could turn the volume knob up and instead of it getting louder the pitch will go down strange nonlinear interactions because of the way that you have it self-patched. And I love that. I find it delightful and super intriguing because it it's like an invitation to listen in a really deep way. Again a really curious way because you don't know what's gonna happen. And this instrument, this object that is like usually has a very specific role in your on your desk all of a duo partner and

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: it's like jamming with you. You know and you can do this kind of feedback patching with synthesizers too. It's one of my favorite techniques to use on a modular or any kind of synth. It's not just mixers that you can do it with if anyone's curious.

Brian Funk: So you would just patch those outputs. That was a famous thing people did with the Minimoog. They would put the, I think it was like the headphones back into the external

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah!

Brian Funk: input.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, the only thing just for anyone who's trying for the first time, um, it's just really important that you have your main outputs should, should always have a volume control attached

Brian Funk: All right,

Sarah Belle Reid: to them. Don't

Brian Funk: maybe

Sarah Belle Reid: use those

Brian Funk: a limiter.

Sarah Belle Reid: in the feedback loop. And, and I recommend never using headphones if it's your very first time doing feedback based patching, because the volume is very unpredictable. So

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: just make sure you've got some kind of master volume control. And I've been doing this now, feedback patching for, you know, well over a decade. and I have not broken anything, and a signal is a signal, and it's all gonna be okay inside the instrument. The main thing you have to worry about potentially damaging are your ears and your speakers. So just keep your volume low. Use a limiter, it's a great idea, and you'll be fine. Everything will be groovy, and you'll make some cool sounds. Yeah.

Brian Funk: Yeah, yeah, I can definitely agree with that advice. I've had that situation where maybe I'm trying to record the band and somewhere along the way, I routed something the wrong way and everyone's headphones just starts squealing.

Sarah Belle Reid: He, oh no.

Brian Funk: People falling out of their chairs. It can

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: be horrifying and scary when it happens.

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh yeah, when you're not expecting it for sure.

Brian Funk: But it's that unpredictability. It's almost like a collaborator

Sarah Belle Reid: That's right.

Brian Funk: when you get that kind of stuff. My first exposure to feedback was with electric guitars and turning up the distortion, putting them in front of the amp. And you get these overtones. And you can almost get melodies depending on what guitar you have. You get different things screeching out of it.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: And it becomes an art in how

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: to.

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah, and it's beautiful. I mean, there's so much music throughout history that, you know, it's a short, relatively short history of electronic music so far, but so many people exploring feedback in such beautiful ways. And it's not always crazy. you know, blasting noise. Like you said, sometimes it's delicate, ghostly tones and

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: little chirps. Like it can be very beautiful and tender even. It's just all about how you kind of dial it in, you know, which just comes down to making small movements, turning knobs slowly

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: and listening.

Brian Funk: I've sampled feedback a long time ago off my guitar and I was gonna make an instrument out of it inside a sampler in Ableton Live. And I was really surprised at how soft it came out because it's not that way when you're doing it live, especially through a guitar amp.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: I'm sure you probably have family members that are very understanding of strange noises coming out of wherever

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh yeah,

Brian Funk: you're

Sarah Belle Reid: well...

Brian Funk: working. I have the same thing and my wife is... totally cool about me making any kind of noise. But a year or two ago, I was recording an album and I decided I wanted all these guitar feedback tracks going on, so I had this little amp and just cranked it up. And I was just sampling it, because I was like, I'm going to also make a collection of these so I can have

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: them. And that was the one time she came down. She's

Sarah Belle Reid: I'm sorry.

Brian Funk: like, what's going on in here? Because to just be squealing and squeaking away, she probably thought like

Sarah Belle Reid: That's

Brian Funk: I

Sarah Belle Reid: so

Brian Funk: blew

Sarah Belle Reid: funny.

Brian Funk: up or something.

Sarah Belle Reid: that. Yeah. Yeah, my family's put up with a lot.

Brian Funk: I think anybody that's making music, even if you're just in a traditional thing without experiments you're looping the same thing over and over and over and over just to tweak things so people around you get used to you just incessantly. It's a really nice way to think though with that sound and useful sound for music can kind of just come from anywhere. There's really nothing that's off limits after a while when you start thinking in that way.

Sarah Belle Reid: Totally. I'm working on a piece right now and we... I just spent, this was a couple of weeks ago, but I spent the day at an old, abandoned sawmill, like a cedar sawmill, sampling the big, they have these incredible big saw blades, huge, like six feet wide, and when you hit them, strike them with different things, they just sound incredible, and they ring for like, some of them 15 seconds, like a long decay ring. Just gorgeous. cedar logs that hadn't been cut into boards yet. And they're all different thicknesses and different lengths. And so if you whack them with like a stick, they're like, like different, they're like giant woodblocks, but like low, like base

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: woodblocks. And they all have different pitches. It's beautiful. And so I've been using all of those types of sounds as like percussion for this piece, as opposed to using, you know, real drums. It's all

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: just clanging metal from, you know, from the sawmill and pots and pans are my favorite. I mean, your kitchen is the ultimate sample playground. I'm sure you've told people that a million times, but like open up the cupboards, get the pots

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: and pans. Yeah.

Brian Funk: And the kitchens usually have a cool reverb to them. Maybe they're like, it's not like carpeting usually in kitchens,

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: so they kind of have like this room sound. We do an assignment with the Berkeley class where you just go through your day and just find sounds. Your normal routine, but like listen, pay attention. And so many people never get past breakfast,

Sarah Belle Reid: I'm sorry.

Brian Funk: you know, because the kitchen is just loaded with appliances

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh yeah,

Brian Funk: and different

Sarah Belle Reid: I love

Brian Funk: pots

Sarah Belle Reid: that.

Brian Funk: and pans and jugs. It's really cool. And everyone's is different. You would think after a while that everyone's song would sound the same, or everyone's just sampling their kitchen. But every, that's like what I think is some of the beauty of it too, is that just everyone's atmosphere is unique, especially when you start adding up all the individual pieces. Maybe

Sarah Belle Reid: course.

Brian Funk: we have a pot and pan that sounds similar, but once we start opening cabinets and drawers and then we got a whole new palette.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah. And also how you, you know, what you do to those samples, right? Like, do

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: you use the slam of the cabinet door as like a little percussive hit or do you time stretch it or do you, you know, speed it up so it's this like really high little piccolo sound, you know? That's where it gets really... really individualistic. Some people, some person might hear a melody in the way that the doors close and make a whole piece about that and someone else might not hear that and instead they might hear like a really awesome rhythm and they might run with that. So I think yeah music is everywhere. Anything is an instrument. It all comes back to curiosity to me. It's just a big loop. It's

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: a big feedback loop. Yeah.

Brian Funk: Positive feedback loop. Do you use any particular gear to do this? Do you have like some giant rig with furry microphone windscreens?

Sarah Belle Reid: Honestly, it depends if I'm in my, so when I can, I bring things into my studio just so that I can record in a more acoustically dampened space, but often if I'm out and about, I'm just using a simple Zoom field recorder, nothing fancy. It does, it could certainly be a fancier setup, but I. I haven't upgraded anything yet and it's actually been years and it works well.

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: Most important thing to get, which I didn't get early on, is like a good wind sock of some kind or windscreen, because that's the

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: one thing that will really rain on your parade when you're trying to record outside is the KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Brian Funk: Yeah, just that low rumble of the wind. Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: It's more, in my opinion, it's more important to get the sounds and like, be creative with them than it is to get the most perfect,

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: high quality, pristine recording. Um,

Brian Funk: I say the same exact thing.

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah.

Brian Funk: You're better off to have it. And you have a

Sarah Belle Reid: I,

Brian Funk: phone probably

Sarah Belle Reid: that's what

Brian Funk: on

Sarah Belle Reid: I was

Brian Funk: you.

Sarah Belle Reid: just about to say is I've even, I've even recorded samples on my phone. I don't do that anymore because I have this zoom recorder, which is great, but that's how I started was just using my computer mic, like a built-in mic and my phone and just voice memo and everything.

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: And. It's fine. It's a place to start.

Brian Funk: I was doing a class a week ago with Berkeley. And I was like, oh, I'm going to do this. I was trying to sample my voice through this microphone, but for whatever reason, my interface wasn't connecting with my

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm.

Brian Funk: computer. So I had those Apple AirPod, not

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: these ones, but the ones with the wire. So they were old ones when they still had the eighth inch jack. So however long

Sarah Belle Reid: Hmm.

Brian Funk: ago that was. And I just sampled my voice through it to make an instrument that I could put inside a sampler. And I loved the quality of that cheap mic. In some ways, I almost like the bad mic better. Because once you start stretching it, repitching

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: it, weird things happen that aren't in the clean recording

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: that you can get,

Sarah Belle Reid: totally. Yeah, I think it's

Brian Funk: it's

Sarah Belle Reid: all

Brian Funk: important

Sarah Belle Reid: just.

Brian Funk: to just

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: get it.

Sarah Belle Reid: exactly. It's just get it make start making things you can always upgrade like your gear later if you want to but start making stuff now. And you never know like you're to your point, you might end up liking it even better. You're not the first person I've heard you say who says that it's like, there's just some kind of magical quality about that. You know, kind of quote unquote crappy quality, bad recording. It's like actually

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: got some life to it, you know?

Brian Funk: I find sometimes in the context of a recording, that quality helps the sound kind of stick out

Sarah Belle Reid: Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk: where it doesn't get lost in all the other really nice recordings. It's got its own little texture, its own little

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: space in the mix that you can really dial in.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: So you've got a course that's about to start up, you said,

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: learning sound and synthesis.

Sarah Belle Reid: that's right.

Brian Funk: So that sounds like fun after we've been talking a little bit about some of

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: your philosophies in there, I'm sure.

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh yeah. Yeah. That is, it's a, so it's next round is starting in late August and it opens every year, twice a year. But it's, as the name suggests, learning sound and synthesis. It's a class that's all about sound design and making music with modular synths and You know, that could be to do sound design for video games, or you could, you know, take the class to make your own music, your own electronic music, dance music, experimental music. A lot of folks are in the class with a focus on film scoring. Basically, what I teach is a very, very comprehensive how-to and synthesis technique. course that focuses on universal synthesis concepts rather than specific instruments because I'm really interested in giving people you know, the technique and the knowledge that they need to use any instrument they want, whether it's a virtual synth that runs on their computer or the synth inside of Ableton or some Moog desktop synth or a keyboard synth or whatever. And I don't want to, you know, lock people out of the class by saying, sorry, if you don't have this one particular Euro Rack, you can't come and learn. So I teach using VCV Rack, which is a really amazing free modular synth. program that runs on your computer. And I really, really love it. And yeah, we start there and people go a million directions

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: from, excuse me, from there.

Brian Funk: Well, that's

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: cool because so much of it is based off these building blocks.

Sarah Belle Reid: Exactly.

Brian Funk: And that's something I didn't know when I first tried to play a synthesizer. I didn't understand that there were these commonalities

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: between all of them. They all looked like different spaceships to me.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: And I felt like I had to learn every single one, but soon you start to see the pieces and how they

Sarah Belle Reid: That's

Brian Funk: come together.

Sarah Belle Reid: exactly, that's the thing that all of my students say and it's so exciting when they get to that point. Usually a month or a month and a half into the class, people start saying. oh wow, like I just realized how this instrument that I've had over here collecting dust on my desk works. Like I get it now because, you know, we basically, the philosophy behind the class is kind of like the under the hood approach to learning synthesis. So instead of learning how the... you know, the Moog Matriarch works or how any of those instruments work on the top level, you're learning how each individual component works, like really deeply what's up with oscillators. Not just, yeah, we know they drone, but like, did you know that you can, you know, use oscillators for 50, 100 different things, and then they can be chaotic and noisy and, and droney and all of this and like what's up with LFOs and how can we use as them as sound sources and how can we use them as control sources and all of that. So by the time you go through that, you not only know how VCV rack works and how modular synths work, but you go back to your various other instruments that you have and it all starts to click because you're like, wait a second. I get it.

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: it's an oscillator, it's an LFO, I know how those things work, that's a filter, and you're able to make more music with them than you were able to before, which is really exciting.

Brian Funk: Hmm. Yeah, you just start to see the

Sarah Belle Reid: You

Brian Funk: kind

Sarah Belle Reid: start

Brian Funk: of main

Sarah Belle Reid: to see

Brian Funk: idea.

Sarah Belle Reid: all the connections, yeah.

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Right. Do you have a favorite synthesizer? I mean,

Sarah Belle Reid: Ooh,

Brian Funk: I would say you'd probably

Sarah Belle Reid: I don't

Brian Funk: go

Sarah Belle Reid: know.

Brian Funk: modular stuff, but I don't

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: know.

Sarah Belle Reid: I am a big fan of modular and in particular, I mean the reason why I love modular is because of the flexibility. I also love, you know, I have a Hydra synth, which is a keyboard based poly synth, I love it. But the reason why I love it is because of all of the flexibility that I learned on my modular that I can bring into how I patch it and how I customize

Brian Funk: Right,

Sarah Belle Reid: the sounds

Brian Funk: gotcha.

Sarah Belle Reid: on the HydroSynth because it's very flexible. These days, what I've been really enjoying are very small modular synths. I, you know, very limited. I've put together, I don't know the exact size, but just a tiny little case, two rows, fits in a backpack. And I'm just living with it as though it is a fixed. signal path synth, or not fixed signal path, but like those are the modules. They're not swappable.

Brian Funk: of the component.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: Right,

Sarah Belle Reid: and

Brian Funk: right.

Sarah Belle Reid: you do, of course, make your own patches within them, but I'm not changing them out every couple weeks, which is something that some folks do a lot of in the

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: modular world. And I've really enjoyed that because it feels more like my trumpet or like a keyboard where it's an instrument that I can really get to know on a really deep level that's not constantly changing. And I like the smallness of it because it forces me to be really creative and limitations, you know, are my best friend in the studio is just reduce the limitations, again, less is more. And I find that by, you know, giving yourself fewer options, you have to make better creative decisions and you try things that you probably wouldn't try otherwise.

Brian Funk: Yeah, I think that is what creativity is. It's

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: making do with what you have.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, yeah,

Brian Funk: And

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah.

Brian Funk: you're in this box. Not necessarily in the module, but

Sarah Belle Reid: That's the trouble

Brian Funk: I don't

Sarah Belle Reid: with

Brian Funk: f-

Sarah Belle Reid: modular synths, though, is that you can always grab another one, right? So

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: I always try to encourage people to keep it small and just see what you can get out of that, because there's always something you haven't tried before. Guaranteed.

Brian Funk: Yeah, I don't feel particularly creative when I'm scrolling through 9,000 kick drum samples, trying to find the one I'm going to use in my song. And I can imagine what modular it's, I've not gone too far down that road, mostly out of fear of getting carried away.

Sarah Belle Reid: Um, yeah.

Brian Funk: Because I've been in front of walls of them.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, yeah,

Brian Funk: And

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah.

Brian Funk: it kind of like, what? And then to just know that you can always get a new one and swap it out. It's, I don't know. I think I'd go bankrupt real fast.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, that's why I mean in like, I totally hear you and you're not alone.

Brian Funk: Hehehe

Sarah Belle Reid: But that is a big reason why like the class that I teach and the community around it, the learning sound synthesis community is it's really, we're really focused on like making music first

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: and foremost. It's not so much about the gear. Of course, the gear is a big part of the discussion because we're learning how it all works and, and people need advice on what, Music is always the number one goal, and I think that really helps. For one, it feels more inclusive. It feels more welcoming. It's like you don't need the big sprawling synth in order to make awesome music with modular synths. You can open up your phone and get like a modular synth app and like, that's fantastic. Start with that. It's perfect. VCV Rack's free. I love it. It sounds really great. There's actually a ton of VCV Rack modules that are direct emulations of digital modules that you can get in Euro Rack format. And they run the same code. and they

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: sound fantastic. So it's a perfect place to start and for many people it's not just a starting point, it's the perfect setup for them, you know, for years. I use VCVRC all the time, especially when I'm on the road. I

Brian Funk: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: just don't want to travel with like a massive, you know, rig.

Brian Funk: Yeah, that's a big consideration when you're playing out and touring especially.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Like what are you carrying around with you? I know for myself, like a lot of times I'm going alone too. And if I'm going into like New York city and Brooklyn, I want to be able to carry everything in one trip

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: because I'm lucky if I park a half a mile away from the club. And I don't want to leave half my gear in the club and

Sarah Belle Reid: No.

Brian Funk: half in the car. So I've made it that that's been a really helpful limitation for me. Like what can I fit on this table and what can I carry?

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Because for a little while I was getting interested in it was wasn't modular, but it was modular ask with MIDI controllers because you're kind of.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, lots of pieces.

Brian Funk: You got all your little pieces together, so you keep adding to that next thing you know, like you're out of control real fast.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, I understand.

Brian Funk: Yeah, I'm sure it's so I'm guessing having that kind of limited space is practical as well as great for creativity.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, exactly. I honestly think it's a win-win. I mean, some of the best shows I've ever played have been the ones that I've been forced to. really, really re rethink things because I'm like, okay, I'm flying. It needs to fit in the overhead. I also have a trumpet, so I'm really limited, right? It's like my trumpet case has to come on the plane. So then I'm like, what can I slide into that carry on,

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: you know, or into my backpack or something like that? But again, it just. It gets you thinking in a creative way. It gets you looking for sound everywhere in a more resourceful way. And I've found it really liberating.

Brian Funk: Yeah, I agree. I've gone to almost no guitar pedals. You know, just really a tuner and a little bit of a noise gate. And it's just so nice. I used to rely on the delay pedal and the reverb and all these other things to make my parts interesting, but taking that away forces you to really pay attention to what you're playing

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: and the music much

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: more than... pressing buttons.

Sarah Belle Reid: We like pressing buttons too though, it's okay.

Brian Funk: It's fun.

Sarah Belle Reid: Ha ha

Brian Funk: There it

Sarah Belle Reid: ha.

Brian Funk: is. It's, there's nothing like it, but it, it's such a slippery slope. I think for myself, um, I avoid the like pain of trying to create by adding gear and then complicating things, you know, maybe pain's not the right word, but like, kind of like the fear of.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: I don't know if I'm going to make anything good. So if I can kind of just fiddle with stuff,

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: I'm a little off the hook.

Sarah Belle Reid: I can relate to that for sure. You can make something great though.

Brian Funk: I will

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: try.

Sarah Belle Reid: you got it.

Brian Funk: Yeah. So where can people sign up for the course? You also have a free one we should mention too.

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh yeah!

Brian Funk: That was really cool. I've been watching a little bit of that. You have great energy too. I think that's a nice, you know, reason why people should come to you is that you're excited about it. And you transmit that really well over the videos. Just, hey, this is really cool everyone. You should check it out.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, well, I teach because I am genuinely passionate about teaching and about this topic. Like, I am all fully in and in love with what I teach. And so, yeah, I'm happy to hear that comes through. Yeah, I really do it. I do it because I love it. I'm also really passionate about helping people get started in electronic music and not only get started, but go deep into electronic music and make awesome music. Who... who for whatever reason feel like they're not cut out for it. That's a big kind of personal mission. If you, for whatever reason, just feel like you're not smart enough, or you feel like, oh, I'm the least techie person in the room. I've heard that so many times. Or they've got it and I don't have it. Maybe you believe in yourself, but you're just. intimidated, super normal, super common. And modular synthesis is an intimidating thing to get into because there are a million options and it can just be daunting, right? Like where do

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: I start? What do I need first? But at the same time, it's so fun and so creatively rewarding when you are in it and you're making the kind of music that you're dreaming of making. So my goal is just to kind of help. bridge that gap for people and help bring people together so that they can have a community, right? I mentioned one of the reasons why I make music is that connection aspect. It's a huge aspect of the course as well. We have, in my opinion, one of the most vibrant and like supportive and deeply insanely creative communities on the internet, all focused on modular synthesis and making music with synths. Um, A lot of courses have the lifetime access, like you can come back and once you're in, you're in. And that's how this class works too. But what makes it really special and it gets better every single cohort is that the alumni are in there. The alumni

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: from cohort number one, which was years

Brian Funk: Nice.

Sarah Belle Reid: ago, they are there and they are like offering feedback and they're sharing their new releases and they're collaborating with one another and everyone comes to open mics and we do hangouts and we do live Zoom calls. Just such a vibe. Like

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: such a good vibe. I know that I'm obviously biased because it's the community that I've been building, but it just like fills my heart with so much happiness. So you asked how people can sign up. I will tell you that. The easiest way is just soundandsynthesis.com. Soundandsynthesis.com.

Brian Funk: Cool. I have that up here.

Sarah Belle Reid: That's for the main course. The free course is got a slightly longer URL that maybe we could drop in the show notes.

Brian Funk: Yeah, I'll put them all in there as well. Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, and the free course is great for people who maybe aren't sure if this modular synthesis is something that you want to do but you're curious. It's a completely free class. You use VCV Rack, which is free to download too, so you don't need to buy anything. And it walks you through what modular synthesis is about, how it works, how to make your first couple of patches. And the whole thing takes less than a couple of hours. So it's a good thing to do

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: on a weekend.

Brian Funk: Yeah,

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: I agree. That's really cool. The community is so huge. Those are the best semesters I have at Berkeley when people are interacting,

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: when I have a Discord when we get that going and people are moving. But what I love about what you just said is it's really cool that the people from the first cohort, all the cohorts are still there.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: That's one thing I would, at Berkeley, it's just whoever's there at the moment.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, it's a big deal. It's such a, you know, it's something that I started on day one, this kind of open door, like once you're in the LSS community, you're in. And I was hoping it would work this way, but I wasn't sure, because you can't, obviously

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: you can't force people to come back around, but they really do. And the other reason why it's valuable is because it allows, it allows people to really go at their own pace and take some of the urgency and the pressure off of like, you, you know, needing to get it all done right now, such a big part of life as a musician. You've talked about this already. There's so much pressure, so much urgency, like especially in school, right? You have one semester

Brian Funk: Sure.

Sarah Belle Reid: and if you don't learn it all, and it's too bad, but this whole class is really designed so that there is a cohort, like you do go through with a group, but at the same time. It's OK if you don't get it all in four months, because you have access to it continually into the future. And you can go back through the next round. And lots of people do that. And what I've found, just from an education point of view, what I've found is that when people can relax a little bit, they get deeper into it. And they'll go through the first two or three chapters. They'll get inspired. And then they'll say, you know what? I'm going to make an album. Even though I

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: still don't know what are or how they work. I haven't gotten there yet. I'm so inspired with what I have right now. I'm going to compose for three months. That's great. Like,

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: that's fantastic. And then they get to a point where they think, OK, I've done that. I'm full. Now I want to go learn about sequencers. Or now I'm ready for MIDI or whatever they're ready for in their next step. And the class is there. And they go back in, do their next chunk,

Brian Funk: Hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: rinse and repeat.

Brian Funk: That's great. Cause that's

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: one of the biggest problems with education.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Honestly, is that it's so make believe a lot of times and you're not doing real work, you're doing like work for your teacher and you don't get to do the thing you want to do until you do the thing you have to do,

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: but why are you learning modular since probably you want to make music.

Sarah Belle Reid: You

Brian Funk: So

Sarah Belle Reid: want to make

Brian Funk: if you

Sarah Belle Reid: music?

Brian Funk: get inspired along the way, make it.

Sarah Belle Reid: Make it.

Brian Funk: Do

Sarah Belle Reid: I

Brian Funk: it.

Sarah Belle Reid: know. There's

Brian Funk: That's

Sarah Belle Reid: a

Brian Funk: great.

Sarah Belle Reid: funny kind of a meme that some of my students. made of every, almost after every video, certainly at the end of every module, I have this little thing that I say that turned into an accidental catchphrase where I'm like, okay, now go and put all of this into action in your own practice and like make music with it and try it out. And if you need anything, I'm here to help, you know. And I'm wishing you happy patching adventures ahead. And I basically say it after every video, just because I so earnestly believe Learn this stuff is to do it, you know learn the concepts

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: learn the theory and then make your own music with it and That will reveal to you The gap in your knowledge or the gap in your setup Right if we link it back to the beginning of the conversation when you were talking about mapping your MIDI controller If you start with one thing and you do that It will reveal to you what's needed You'll be like, oh, that's cool, but I'd really be great if I could do that too. There's your next step. Easy. Take, then you take that next step and you just build from there. Like you don't need to have it all figured out before you start making music.

Brian Funk: Oh, that was the big revelation for me with playing live using a computer was I'll just, I'll just play and then I'll decide, Oh, I wish I had a filter here. Okay.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: Let's

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk: add it.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: And then I'll play more and then I'll say, Oh, what if I could do that? And

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: it builds naturally. Cause I think

Sarah Belle Reid: Exactly.

Brian Funk: at first I was trying to plan it out too much and

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, that's normal.

Brian Funk: it just never happened.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: But. It's all stuff that you're never gonna master really anyway. There's a lifelong learning pursuits synthesis. Like

Sarah Belle Reid: If we, if we're

Brian Funk: you've

Sarah Belle Reid: lucky,

Brian Funk: learned that forever.

Sarah Belle Reid: that's what I hope, right? I hope that I will always be, you know, learning new things every time I pick up my instruments, discovering new things every time I sit down at my synth. That's my dream. I don't ever want to get to a point where I'm like, cool, I know it all. I know that's never gonna happen.

Brian Funk: I saw Keith Richards talking about his guitar once, and he's been playing his guitar for hundreds of years now, I think. And he says, it's a puzzle, man. And he's like, every time I pick it up, I find a new piece.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, I

Brian Funk: And

Sarah Belle Reid: love that.

Brian Funk: it was just so cool to see how he's still, you know, enamored with the mystery of it and learning new things.

Sarah Belle Reid: And you see how that personality or that approach is so open to receiving the new pieces, right? Oh, it's a puzzle. Every time I pick it up, I learn a new piece. That is so powerful. As opposed to something that's like, oh man, it's so hard. I should know it all by now. Right? Which is like, why don't I know it all then? I've been playing for 200 years or whatever. Right. It's like, you see that it's the same

Brian Funk: Oh yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: situation, but the one is like, every time I pick this up, I get something new out of it.

Brian Funk: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Belle Reid: That's like a state of like, bring it on, you know,

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: as

Brian Funk: Oh, that's

Sarah Belle Reid: opposed

Brian Funk: a mindset

Sarah Belle Reid: to it's

Brian Funk: thing.

Sarah Belle Reid: a mindset thing for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk: Yeah, it's same problem. Or same

Sarah Belle Reid: Same circumstance,

Brian Funk: opportunity.

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah, same circumstance, completely different kind

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: of approach.

Brian Funk: Yeah, and I think that having that sort of like, I can learn any, I can keep learning forever is really a great way to approach it. Because otherwise, yeah, either you get frustrated that you haven't learned it all yet, or you get close minded and thinking that you did. And

Sarah Belle Reid: Right.

Brian Funk: then you stop learning and probably lose interest.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah. Yeah, The Beginner's Mind. There's a, that's a book. Let's see if I can remember. Shinru Suzuki, I think is the name. But it's called Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. Good read.

Brian Funk: Okay.

Sarah Belle Reid: Small, short, quick read. But.

Brian Funk: lot of words I

Sarah Belle Reid: It's

Brian Funk: like

Sarah Belle Reid: something

Brian Funk: in there.

Sarah Belle Reid: that I bring into the beginning, first day of any class that I ever teach, is this idea of the beginner's mind. And I'm going to paraphrase loosely because I can't remember the exact text, but the idea is in the beginner's mind, possibilities are endless, but in the expert's mind, they are very few. And it's just

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: what you said, right? It's like coming into things with this perspective of... always learning. Oh, I don't know that yet, but I can't wait to learn every time I pick up my insta and I discover something new. Yeah.

Brian Funk: Yeah. Well, that is really a gift if you just change the thinking that this thing has another surprise around the corner

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: as opposed to, oh no, I don't know all the surprises yet.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, yeah, oh, what's coming next?

Brian Funk: Right.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, totally.

Brian Funk: That's good stuff. I think that's a really great message to be giving people. Because especially as we get older, we are less and less comfortable being beginners and new at things. And we don't do as many new things in our lives as we get older compared to when we're kids and you'll try anything.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: It's such a good thing to have.

Sarah Belle Reid: yeah, exactly. And joining a class, the reason why I bring this into all of my classes is because signing up for a class takes courage. It's not easy to do that, to be like, hey, I don't know this, or I'm going to be the least. skillful person in the room on purpose. Like I'm going to

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: do that to myself. Like that takes courage, especially

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: when it's when we're out of school and maybe have been out of school for decades and you're electing to go back and learn something. Like all of my classes obviously are not. in university settings anymore, they're online. So there's people of all ages. Some folks have been out of formal learning environments for 50 years. And it's an amazing thing what happens when you put all those people into the same space. This person's like, oh, I'm so new to this, but I have 40 years of experience with this. And this person's like, oh, I've never seen this before, but I'm really great at this. And then you

Brian Funk: Mm.

Sarah Belle Reid: get those people talking You know, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah.

Brian Funk: Well, I would gather from talking to you that you also do quite a lot of learning in these classes as well.

Sarah Belle Reid: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I always say that teaching is my favorite way to learn. And

Brian Funk: No, I said the same thing.

Sarah Belle Reid: I mean

Brian Funk: Yeah.

Sarah Belle Reid: it. Oh, yeah. I mean, I learn so much from everybody. Like I said, we have Zoom calls, open coaching calls, basically, where we listen to each other's music and give feedback. And we talk about ideas that go way beyond the technical aspect of synthesis but are more about being a musician. And we get into sometimes mindset-related like what you and I have been talking about that have to do with performance anxiety or time management or like just being a creative person. I always learn from everyone because, you know, I have my experience from my own practice and from my past students that I can offer, but when there's, you know, dozens and dozens and collectively hundreds of people in a space all sharing their perspectives. it's impossible to not learn from them as well.

Brian Funk: Well, it's possible if you take that, I'm the teacher here

Sarah Belle Reid: Well...

Brian Funk: and this is my class, like that'll shut it down real fast.

Sarah Belle Reid: would shut it down, but for me I find it really enriching.

Brian Funk: That's great. I'm very happy to hear that for you and for your students.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah, yeah, it's a fun time. We have fun.

Brian Funk: Yeah. Good. Right. We're playing music.

Sarah Belle Reid: We are playing music.

Brian Funk: Well, great. Um, we'll definitely put all that stuff in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to mention, bring up or tie together before we go?

Sarah Belle Reid: I don't...no,

Brian Funk: patched

Sarah Belle Reid: I don't

Brian Funk: together,

Sarah Belle Reid: patch

Brian Funk: I should

Sarah Belle Reid: together...I

Brian Funk: say.

Sarah Belle Reid: don't think so.

Brian Funk: Very nice. Well,

Sarah Belle Reid: I'm

Brian Funk: I

Sarah Belle Reid: gonna

Brian Funk: thank

Sarah Belle Reid: go.

Brian Funk: you for taking the time to talk and share all that with us. Really awesome work you're doing. I find

Sarah Belle Reid: Thank

Brian Funk: it really

Sarah Belle Reid: you.

Brian Funk: inspiring, too. I've learned a lot. And that energy is always really nice to tap into. So I know I can get that enthusiasm from you in one of your videos. So thank you for that.

Sarah Belle Reid: Yeah,

Brian Funk: And

Sarah Belle Reid: I mean, it's my pleasure. And honestly, you know, thank you. Thanks to you for saying that and to everyone, everyone listening, everyone who tunes into the videos that I share and sends messages and stuff because those kind words that I receive in various forms make it so even more exciting and rewarding to keep doing what I'm doing. So I really appreciate all the little nuggets that come in. Thank you for sending them in.

Brian Funk: Very good. Well, thank you and thank you to everyone that listened. Have a great day.

Sarah Belle Reid: Bye for now.