Navigating Duality in Systemic Change

Welcome to episode 70 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

We’re delighted to be able to share with you this special two-part installment, recorded in June 2024 at the recent Plum Village retreat, Ancient Path for Modern Times.

This is the first recording of a panel discussion based loosely around the 14 mindfulness trainings – Thich Nhat Hanh’s ethical guidelines for living, a modern distillation of the traditional Bodhisattva precepts of Mahayana Buddhism. The trainings are followed by monastics and lay friends who have made a a formal vow to receive, study, and observe them. 

In the panel, you will hear two of our frequent guests, Sister True Dedication (Sister Hien Nghiem) and Christiana Figueres, as well as Dharma teacher Shantum Seth.

These three panelists explore how the Buddha faced war and violence in his own time; the principle of ahimsa and Gandhian nonviolence; handling anger, despair, and burnout as activists; practicing in times of polarization and division; insights around the victim-perpetrator dynamic; sanghas as sanctuaries, and their role in activism; different aspects of engaged Buddhism and its evolution over time; the spiritual dimension of change; and much more. And does anger help?

Christiana Figueres, one of the architects of the Paris Climate Agreement in 2015, was a student of Thich Nhat Hanh and is a valued member of the Plum Village Sangha. Executive Secretary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) from 2010 to 2016, she is also the co-founder of Global Optimism, co-host of the Outrage + Optimism podcast, and co-author of the bestselling The Future We Choose: Surviving the Climate Crisis. 

Shantum Seth, an ordained Dharmacharya (Dharma teacher) in the Buddhist Mindfulness lineage of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, teaches in India and across the world. A co-founder of Ahimsa Trust, he has been a student of Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings for the past 35 years. Since 1988, he has led pilgrimages and other multi-faith, educational, cultural, spiritual, and transformative journeys across diverse regions of India and Asia. He is actively involved in educational, social, and ecological programmes, including work on cultivating mindfulness in society, including with educators, the Indian Central Reserve Police Force, and the corporate sector. Across various Indian sanghas, Dharmacharya Shantum is the primary teacher of different practices of mindfulness from Thich Nhat Hanh’s tradition.

Thank you for listening, and enjoy!

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Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/  

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/

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List of resources 

Interbeing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing  

The Fourteen Mindfulness Trainings
https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/the-14-mindfulness-trainings 

Mahayana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana 

Bodhisattva vow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vow 

Magadha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha 

Kosala
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosala 

Ahimsa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa

Mahavira
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavira

Patanjali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patanjali 

Mahatma Gandhi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi 

Jan Smuts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Smuts 

Sister Chan Duc
https://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sr-chan-duc 

Sister Chan Khong
https://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khong 

Paris Peace Accords
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords 

The European Institute of Applied Buddhism (EIAB)
https://plumvillage.org/practice-centre/eiab 

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Quotes

“I need to find a way of being peace, not just fighting for peace.”

“There’s no teaching as clear as ‘no mud, no lotus’, because that is the kernel of transformation. And if we can all give that to ourselves every day, then we can make space for the despair and the anger and maybe even the hatred. And, at the same time, be able to make space for the reconciliation and for the growth in our shared humanity.”

“What has always been important for me, as a guidance, is to understand that, because of the truth of interbeing, we all play a role. We all have our different positions, our different opinions, our different interests, and they’re all necessary.”

“I wake up, honestly, most mornings, despairing at what I’m seeing. The question for me, then, is: do I let that control my day? Do I let that control my thought, my word, and my action? Or do I use the despair as the very rich mud to transform into the lotus?” 

 “I know the reasons for anger. And if anger is directed at me it’s probably a good direction, because it means that it won’t be reflected back.” 

“Whatever is in me, I mirror out there in the world. Whatever I do has an effect on the world. The other option is to let the world determine what goes on inside me. I did that for many years, and it doesn’t lead to good results. So the invitation is to actually take responsibility. What is the world in here doing, and how do I reflect that onto the outside world?”

“If you can still see that the flowers are smiling, you’re okay.”

“True mindfulness or right mindfulness always contains ethics within it. And if it doesn’t have ethics in it, like, for example, using mindfulness to hold a gun and pull the trigger, then, actually, that’s not mindfulness. That would just be concentration or focus. Mindfulness is your whole being, including the ethical values that are there in the present moment.”

“You could send all the bombs to the moon, but the roots of war would still be in our hearts and minds.”

“The way we show up, the quality of our presence – whether it’s teachers or leaders in politics, the climate movement, our own organizations, or in our families – that quality of applied mindfulness in our presence is our engagement, and that’s what the world needs most.”

“Don’t underestimate the power of our applied mindfulness, the quality of our presence in the most simple moments. That is how we can take our civilization in the right direction.”