4min chapter

Decoding the Gurus cover image

"Mini" Decoding of Matthew Goodwin & Interview with Paul Bloom

Decoding the Gurus

CHAPTER

The Dangers of Cognitive Empathy

Cognitive empathy is a very good thing, whether or not you're looking to work with somebody or work against them. I think where we see the danger is, is that it can open the door to a kind of relativism, which is, I see the world this way, you see the world that way. After 9-11, people would say, well, let's try to figure out why Bin Laden did what he did. But when we do things well, we override this impulse to demonize the empathizers.

00:00
Speaker 3
No, I think Chris, and I totally agree with that aspect of it, that kind of cognitive empathy is a very good thing, whether or not you're looking to work with somebody or work against them. I think where we see the danger is, is that it can open the door to a kind of relativism, which is, I see the world this way, you see the world that way.
Speaker 1
Well, North Korea,
Speaker 3
that's right. Yeah, which I don't think is healthy. Yeah.
Speaker 4
You know, I worry about it because I think it's so what
Speaker 2
somebody would say as well, if I see the world through Putin's
Speaker 4
eyes, then ultimately, I think if I was in his shoes, I would do the same thing. I mean, you know, I would be governed by the
Speaker 2
same history and beliefs and desires and so on.
Speaker 4
And I don't think that makes
Speaker 2
you a moral relativist. I think you could say, but that would be wrong and step above it. I think it just makes you more effective. But Chris mentioned this and it's a very real worry that by dint of applying cognitive empathy,
Speaker 4
it makes you maybe softer
Speaker 2
towards people.
Speaker 4
And I think we feel as way towards third parties. After 9-11, just good to go to
Speaker 2
example, a lot of people, or few people would say, well, let's try to figure out why Bin Laden did what he did. And people were furious at them for doing it.
Speaker 4
They said,
Speaker 2
look, he did it because he was evil. Maybe we'll raise it a bit and say, he hates our freedoms. Okay, we can do that. But to talk about grievances, he might have had was
Speaker 4
treasonous.
Speaker 2
And I think this is a very natural response. You know, someone murders my child and then do I really want to hear somebody explain, well, the guy had a certain circumstance.
Speaker 4
But no,
Speaker 2
he just wants, he's evil and you want him punished. But I think when we do things well, we override this impulse to demonize the empathizers. And I think this sort of cognitive empathy is something we should apply, even it was distasteful at
Speaker 1
times. The thing that I think Paul, specifically when I'm thinking about Putin and those kinds of things is that whenever I hear people expand on what Putin is feeling or, you know, the way that his model of the world works,
Speaker 6
I usually
Speaker 1
don't find any of it hugely surprising, right? Like I understand that Putin is resentful for Russia's diminished influence in the world fields that need to expansion is a threat to the influence of Russia. And you know, sees America throwing its weird around. So all various things understand. But then there's a part where whenever I look at the historical actions and consider the other actors in that territory and the various countries that have been invaded by Russia, you know, in the past 20 years. And
Speaker 7
I still end up at the position that like, okay,
Speaker 1
Putin thinks of things like that. Hitler might have thought that the German people were entitled to an expansion of their living space and this had been stolen by a malignant element of their society. But like, we agree that Hitler was wrong. And
Speaker 7
like in this same respect, I think the international
Speaker 1
relations, of course, there's more to be it, especially around contemporary things. And it can be the case that people are just one
Speaker 7
side is
Speaker 1
wrong and or they're framing things too charitably and another side isn't. And when I see the presentation of dictators on sites like the Greyser, which they could be presented. I don't know if you're familiar with them like Iron Man Day and that kind of thing. But they would present themselves as just understanding Bashar Assad, the Syrian leader and you know, trying to provide a counterpoint to the Western narratives about Russian aggression.
Speaker 7
But in actual
Speaker 1
fact, they are downplaying chemical attacks, they're going on guided tours in totalitarian regimes and saying everyone here is happy and so on.

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