The Different Structs of Abolitionism

There's at least two quite different strands of abolitionism or two quite different streams from which people sort of like enter into calling themselves an abolitionist, right? So one is where I think we would come from, which is the idea that like prisons are deeply cruel and not very effective. The other is a kind of like bastardized anti-racism, particularly in the US, where they're basically just like prisons to oppress black people. And so if you've never met people who have been out of jail, if you have no connection to that world, it is easy to have a fantasy about them.