Ukraine's Push for NATO Membership

Nobody is quite thinking that actually giving a security guarantee to these states is actually going to involve fighting any kind of war, whether it's conventional or because they're a thing of the past. But it's interesting where Ukraine is concerned that obviously a rather different position is taken from the start. So you can actually see a Ukrainian government starting to push for NATO membership going back to 2005 when President Yushanko came in as part of the the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. And I think we can see then if we move to the point in which the Americans were pushing for Ukraine's membership, which was 2008. That there's very deep reluctance in France and German even really to think about that.